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MG MGB Technical - What oil are you using?
| Hi everyone, Just curious to know what engine oil everyone is running nowadays. I have heard of a mobil one full synthetic with proper zddp levels, valvoine vr1 conventional oil and some amsoil are good to use with zddp. I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with them or what your preference is. |
| JRB Mr |
| I've been using Castro 4T 20W50, for several years now, with excellent results. It is formulated for offroad vehicles, so it still has the higher levels of ZDDP that were found in oil before the advent of catalytic converters, which the ZDDP tends to clog up. It retains higher oil pressure, when the oil is hot or cold, than regular oil and has an increased detergent package to keep your engine clean. Not everybody carries it. I get it by the case at Kragens. They weren't even aware that they carried it. RAY |
| rjm RAY |
| I use Valvoline VR1 for the same reasons Ray uses Castrol 4T. Kragen, (now called O'Reilly Auto Parts) normally stocks it on their shelves. |
| Steven 67GT |
| VR1 here. Pretty easy to find |
| Bruce Cunha |
| Classic Car Motor Oil, 15W-40 |
| Steve S |
| Remember the old ad (all UK members,) for Boddingtons beer,(early 90's.)' Give us a quick rub down with that old chip fat!'Are these oils synthetic? I really don't know much about oils.(I have not read that section yet Steve strange.) A quick up-date for the newer members please? Mike |
| J.M. Doust |
| It's not just the anti-wear additives. MGB oil pumps/systems were designed to work on more viscous oils. |
| Allan Reeling |
| ZDDP is a very movable feast. It depends what any oil is specifically intended for, modern oils for modern vehicles have the amounts of zinc and phosphorus significantly reduced as it poisons catalysts and the environment. Oil for Diesel engines and motor cycles at the moment contains more, the former because of the greater shocks on the little ends, the latter because of the relatively small quantity of oil and high recirculation rate. If you look for oils with a Diesel and a petrol API classification, you will find the petrol classification is earlier which implies higher ZDDP. I say 'implies' advisedly, as manufacturers are very coy about saying just what they do contain. There's a huge amount of information and misinformation out there, this contains some of the conflicting information I have found http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/enginetext.htm#oils A pals rebuilt engine needed new cam and followers after just 20k recently, after his garage had been using 10W/40 API SL in it, and didn't know about ZDDP. I use Unipart 20W/50 API SF when I can get it, Halfords Enhanced Diesel Mineral 15W/40 API SJ when I can't. I wouldn't use anything with an API rating later than that. Modern very low viscosity oils are also not good for older engines which had larger clearances and wider tolerances originally, let alone after tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles. It's why manufacturers offer grades specifically for 'older' i.e. non-injection and 'high mileage' engines. |
| PaulH Solihull |
| Mr JRB of New York regarding engine oil in an MGB; in the UK most people only use a 20-50 Classic engine oil. You will find this suits the old 1800 engine very well. Do not use any form of modern synthetic. This may do extreme damage to your engine. |
| JP Mitchell |
| Mr Mitchell from the UK, would you please enlighten me why synthetic motor oil will do extreme damage to an engine to a classic car? Do you mean for initial break in of a rebuilt motor or after break in and for everyday use? Curious what facts you have to back up this statement. Synthetic motor oil has many advantages. I use it for everything from my lawn mower, car, truck, air cooled Harley Davidson that gets very hot, and even to lubricate metal to metal contact to my firearms - semi auto 1911 Colts to side by side double shotguns. (I own all American classic SxS but hope to get a nice English SxS someday.) The one disadvantage of synthetic I am aware of is the cost compared to dino oil. Mostly double the price per quart. As long as you buy oil with the SJ API rating with the zinc required for flat tappet engines, you should be fine. By the way, I use synthetic motor oil from Red Line. Best, Frank |
| Frank Cronin |
| This is one of the better treatises that I've seen about the oil issue: http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/index.html There's a lot there to read & digest, but it gives a /very/ thorough explanation of the concern. |
| Rob Edwards |
| Here's some relevant info from the Valvoline engineers: http://valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/ |
| Steven 67GT |
| Brad Penn 20w-50 |
| Tony Shoviak |
| "in the UK most people only use a 20-50 Classic engine oil" That's a huge generalisation. I won't buy Halfords Classic 20W/50 because the cans are unsealed, anyone could put anything in them at any time. |
| PaulH Solihull |
| The MGB currently has sump full of Penrite HPR 15W-60 semi synthetic. I got it at Summit Maidenhead and have bought perfectly good motor cycles in my life time and got change out of what this oil cost me. It was a 5l though It is API SL/CF but claims to have "enhanced organo zinc anti wear additives" whatever that means and specifically that this protects cam lobes followers and valve gear. It seems to work fine cranking easily and holding good oil pressure when warm and also lasting well by not getting burned. It also notes that on the can "other oils for classic cars include" but in the strapline calls itself an oil for modern cars so it seems to have a bit of an identity crisis. It was recommended by Summit but I may have a look at Penrites web site after reading this thread, I would be surprised if there is much more infornmation there though. I did used to use Comma 15W 40 semi synthetic from the local motor factor for many years on the basis that oils are bit like lagers where you are drinking the advertising. It worked fine, but the reduction in ZDDP closed that source off. |
| Stan Best |
| The Penrite web site was better than expected. i think if ~I was using their oil again I would go for Classic HPR20/50 to API SG/CD. |
| Stan Best |
| I was on some other websites, specifically a older vette site where they run 20w-50 like us with flat tappets. People were using Lucas Break in oil as an additive as well. Sounds like they were talking about using VR1 plus the additive. http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=82&catid=9&loc=show |
| JRB Mr |
| For breaking in an engine, you don't want to use a slippery oil. The piston rings will never bed in with a synthetic oil. The problem, that I have encountered with synthetic oils, is that they tend to slide right past your seals and you wind up adding a quart of oil a week. Even modern Diesel engine oil is suspect, in that they have to meet a more stringent emission requirement and many are now using catalytic converters. The Castrol 4T and the VR1 are listed for offroad use, so they can get away with the higher ZDDP levels. I always look for the JASO rating, on an oil container. This is issued by the Japanese oil industry and is one of the highest standards in the marketplace. RAY |
| rjm RAY |
| Responding to Frank of Mass,USA; thks for your comments Frank and obviously the type of oil to be used in a classic car is a pretty complex subject and maybe there are horses for courses. I have owned my present 1972 BGT almost from new and only use 20-50 oil or very close to it. With 98K on the clock the car has never had any work to the engine apart from many,many oil changes and plugs and points etc. Moving on to my statement, we have just had a member of our club suffer serious engine damage and investigation indicates (but does not prove) the cause was possibly due to the use of 20-40 semi-synthetic oil instead of the 20-50 he normally uses. The photographs of damage are disturbing as part of an exhaust valve broke off, plus there was damage to the camshaft lobes and followers. The comment from Paul of Solihull in the UK regarding Halfords 20-50 cans not being sealed is interesting. Really, at the end of the day one must make there own minds up how to care for their respective car. |
| JP Mitchell |
| Just checking the MG Owners Club UK website, they promote the use of Castrol XL 20W/50 to be used in the MGB. Probably it does not come better than that. |
| JP Mitchell |
To begin with, what happened to your friend’s car really sucks. Do you know why he switched brands and to a lower weight oil? Here’s the deal….. Is reduced zinc in motor oil a serious issue for cars with flat tappet engines? Absolutely. It is so important that even freshly rebuilt engines can experience excessive wear. Careful attention to the selection and use of motor oil in older cars is imperative. Owners can not take for granted that what once worked will still work today. Just as gasoline has been reformulated removing lead and adding ethanol, so have motor oils and other lubricants been changed to meet today’s market place needs. Big government cares more about catalytic converters than the classic engines and cars we do care more about. In you last post the MG Club in the UK recommends Castrol XL 20W/50. This is a good start but I would dig deeper to find out what percentage of weight zinc and phosphorus is in that quart bottle. When was the last time someone updated the website? This is just me being cautious. Motor oil is the blood of the engine. If I use the wrong oil – bad things will happen. Doing a simple search going to the Castrol website, I found in the technical data that zinc is only 0.08 percentage of weight. If you want to protect your engine as I said in my earlier post, use oil rated SH, SJ, SL has zinc content of .11 or higher. This Castrol XL is new virgin oil that hasn’t even been poured yet into the engine. What is the percentage going to be say at 3K miles when these additives are wearing out? This seems a little low….If it were me, I wouldn’t use it. I live in the US so I have no idea what brand oils you have available. But if it were me, I would go to the nearest Harley Davidson, Triumph, BMW shop and see what oils they are putting in the air cooled bikes. Motorcycle oil formulated for air cooled motorcycles does have a higher percentage of zinc and phosphorus. Find what brand and research it. Search the internet. Get facts. Call the manufacturer and find out what % of wt of zinc and phosphorus in the bottle. The ZDDP issue is not going away and it is just going to get worse. Oh yes….. Sticker shock….oil branded for motorcycles is going to be hell of a lot more expensive per quart but heck of a lot cheaper that a total complete engine rebuild. Oil is the blood of your engine. On this side of the pond, I’ve heard good things about Brad Penn, Valvoline VR1, Joe Gibbs Racing Motor oil, Amsoil, Royal Purple, and Red Line. I’ve looked into all of them and wouldn’t hesitate using any of them. I use Red Line synthetic motorcycle oil the simple fact they post technical data what % of wt of zinc and phosphorus is in the bottle and there’s lots of it. I order online and I get a case shipped to my driveway. To back up the facts I do an oil analysis on the oil change and to see how the wear of the engine is. Keep in mind, this is for a 2000 Road King 124” (2032cc) stroked motor. She rides like a raped ape and I ride it like it stole it. Because she is stroked with a faster piston speed and thinner area in the cylinders due to bore size, she over heats more rapidly than stock. I switched to Redline 20w60 for the summer season because I didn’t like the valve train noise when the 20w50 got very hot and idle in hot traffic. Hot summer weather and stuck in stop and go traffic, it wasn’t uncommon to see head temperatures rise to 400 degrees F. I would pull over and let her cool. 20w60 is exactly the same as Red Line 20w50 but has a higher viscosity index 100 Celsius. I use Red Line exclusively but in the spring I used Royal Purple 20w50 due to my friend’s shop running out. The data for Royal Purple is the 6/19 oil change. Royal Purple is a good oil and it did well but I want better protection with a higher flash point since it is 405. Due to this data on this report --my bike, my engine, and of course my wallet – I am going back with Redline 20w50 for the spring and fall. 20w60 in the summer. I could have did more miles and a longer drain interval with 20w60 but changed to 20w50 wt due to climate and cooler weather. Believe me when I tell you this motor got REAL hot, rode real hard, and the zinc and phosphorus levels are still packed nicely and no noticeable wear at all to the metals. Ride safe, Frank  |
| Frank Cronin |
| I have used Castrol Magnatex 10w40 part synthetic for many years on the recomendation of Oselli who rebuilt my MGB engine some 22 years ago After 40000 miles the engine is still perfect no use of oil or oil leaks. Since buying my MGA mk2 Coupe with a rebuilt original 1622 engine I still use the Magnatex and now after14000 miles she doesnt use any oil and just a couple of very minor oil leaks. In view of the recent discussions on Zinc shortage I put half a bottle of STP oil treatment in at oil change time as that is claimed to have the extra Zinc. Am I correct? Paul |
| P D Camp |
| Paul, STP produces two oil additives found in blue and red containers. I believe it's the one in the red container that has some ZDDP. Though I don't think the amount of ZDDP they add in one bottle is enough to give a significant amount of protection for our engines. You are better off adding a straight ZDDP product and stay away from the concentrated polymers added in STP. |
| Steven 67GT |
| Castrol XL 20W/50 is API SE so to a pretty old formulation, much earlier than when ZDDP started to be reduced for catalytic convertor reasons, so you are losing out on the benefits of the later formulations. At one time there were Castrol UK data sheets on line that gave the zinc and phosphorus content of a range of their oils as follows: Product ACEA API Zinc Phosphorus Classic XL 20W-50 SE/CC 0.08 Classic XL 30 SB 0.084 0.077 GTX 15W-40 A3/B3 SL/CF 0.1035 0.093 GTX High Mileage 15W-40 A3/B3 SL/CF 0.1035 0.093 GTX Professional 5W-30 A1/B1 SL 0.099 0.091 GTX Professional 10W-40 A3/B3 SL/CF 0.0933 0.091 So far from XL 20W/50 being the best, it was actually the worst. But the problem is we don't know what the actual content in any particular oil is from year to year, and from what I've seen American sources don't have to justify their claims like they do in the UK and Australia for example. |
| PaulH Solihull |
| About 4500 years ago (that's how it feels on a bad day)- father had a friend who was a chemist with an oil company. He owned a RR and took one look at my twincam A and told me to use 20-50 and change at 3000miles - I was running on Castor oil at the time (loved the smell). Times have moved on and I found Miller oils nearby. We now run an 1800 and a 3.9 V8 (Alas the twincam ) http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_r_MOTORSPORT_faq.htm is commercial blurb and not as comprehensive as the Corvette Action Centre's (thanks Rob) but is a useful guide for UK based owners who resent the price of the so-called specialist product. Roger PS 1800 on 20-50 omd still and V8 on 10 - 40 semi. No probs but visit Goodwood each year and enjoy the Castrol R ! |
| R Walker |
| So what oils in the UK have high ZDDP levels? I shall be putting a new head and camshaft in over the winter and want to preserve everything as best I can. |
| Steve Church |
| I add this ZDDP stuff from ebay (see auction 270728730047 ) |
| dominic clancy |
| This is my opinion only regarding adding "stuff" to oils to put in your engine.... I am no chemist. I never worked at an oil refinery wearing a white lab coat. I am just like you. I'm just a regular guy who works hard, plays hard, rides hard. Simple logic tells me if I have to add "stuff" (STP, Slick 50, and gawd what ever else) and add it to a cheap motor oil because my trusted mechanic recommended this oil to me 20 years ago to save my engine so it doesn't "grenade" -- really isn't worth it. First we're trying to figure out WHICH engine oil to use and now figure out WHAT additive to buy along with it too? That is way too complicated for me. Oil is the blood of your engine... I did a simple search to find out if there are any Red Line dealers in the UK.... and yep... you guessed it. The majority of them are bike shops. Here is the link: http://www.redlineoil-europe.com/info/redlineoildealers.asp?country=United%20Kingdom I also found this website that sells everything - Amsoil, Redline, etc. http://www.opieoils.co.uk/ http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-60176-red-line-oils-redline-20w50-motorcycle-oil-20w-50-ester-based.aspx I also Google searched Amsoil in the UK. I found this: http://www.performanceoilsltd.co.uk/index.html and then go here: http://www.performanceoilsltd.co.uk/cams_oil.html ***AMSOIL Z-ROD™ Synthetic Motor Oil is specially engineered for classic and high-performance vehicles. It features a high-zinc formulation to prevent wear on flat-tappet camshafts and other critical engine components, along with a proprietary blend of rust and corrosion inhibitors for added protection during long-term storage. Z-ROD Synthetic Motor Oil is designed to perform on the street and protect during storage.*** Red Line and Amsoil are held in very high regard. More expensive BUT it will protect your engine. Keep it simple.....they wear the white lab coats and have done the R&D to make it easy for you and to make your car last long and be happy so you can spend more time riding your car than worrying which brand oil or "stuff" to add. My '54 mgtf is at a shop who the engine builder and personal friend who uses and trusts Amsoil. (he is a dealer) His niche is DeTomaso Pantera exotic cars. There is an engine there being built for someone in Belgium to be raced next year in Monte Carlo. The new engines are rebuilt and broken in with Amsoil. I'm sure it is perfectly fine too for our little flat tappet engines. After break in Amsoil 20w50 although I use Red Line because I use it for everything else. --- and I am no dealer either, have any affiliations, connections, of RedLine. I am just a regular guy just like you who wants the best for his / her engine. Ride safe, Frank |
| Frank Cronin |
| I've been using Mobil 1 since 1978- that's 23 years! I started using it right after I finished breaking in the engine on my 1978 Caprice Classic, and when I sold it after 22 years and almost 300,000 miles, the compression was still within factory specifications (did a valve job at 178,000 miles, though). The stuff doesn't thicken up at cold temperatures, which makes for easy starting and minimal wear. It also doesn't thin out at high engine temperatures when I flog the engine down winding mountain roads during the peak of summer. However, don't try using it in a new engine, because the piston rings will never seat! |
| Stephen Strange |
| Steve is exactly right. You should not use synthetic motor oil to break in a motor. When I punched out my cylinder bore larger and did a cam change 10 years ago, I added regular dino motor oil and broke it in. After about 2000 miles I switched to synthetic confident that the piston rings were seated right in. But this was 10 years ago and the oil formulations used back then are changed today so we have also have to change how our new engines are broken in. Re-reading my earlier post I should have been a little more clear. My engine builder friend Pat does use Amsoil to heat cycle / break in a rebuilt motor but what he does use is the product "Amsoil Break In Oil". Here is a link to read up on it. http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/brk.aspx Someone posted a good link on the ZDDP issues and flat tappet cams. It mentioned Redline in the article so I checked out the website. I saw some new products and it is nice to see that they are ahead of the curve regarding the zinc issue. For break in, Redline also has a similar product but you can add with conventional motor oil. In addition I see they also have assembly lube designed specifically preparing for camshafts and metal to metal contact. Ride safe, Frank |
| Frank Cronin |
| I was using Castrol Syntec 20/50 but it has changed to 5/50 which is a little thin for my cars so I switched to Mobil 1 15/50 which works great and has more ZDDP as well. 69 BGT 72 E-Type |
| Michael King |
On the recent blueprinted SC rebuild with 1500 new miles, and after 2 breakin sump refills with ZDDP laced dino 20/50, I went to Pennzoil 10/30 Synthetic with a 4 oz bottle of ZDDP from Moss.I've been using Redline in the OD transmission ( yep no slip, no problems in 7 years)and rear axle, and rack. Tried Royal Purple, loved the color that's for sure. And soto voice: I'm using syn 90 in the HIF dashpot Vic
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| vem myers |
This thread was discussed between 08/11/2011 and 10/12/2011
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