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MG MGB Technical - ZDDDPlus
| What is the general opinion regarding the use of ZDDPLUS for our antique British cars. Reports indicate the newer motor oils do not contain ZDDP and as a result will likely damage the cam lobes and lifters. Is this true? Moss Motors, in there last British Motoring magazine highly recommends this product Check out the following web site: http://www.zddplus.com/ |
| Frank Grimaldi |
| Check out this web site it should answer your questions. http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html Tony |
| Tony Shoviak |
| Use Valvoline VR1 racing oil... |
| Pet |
| In my opinion, you're better off buying a motor oil with the proper protection for your engine than to buy one that isn't and dump a bunch of third party additives in it. Motor oils are carefully blended by engineers with millions of dollars for R&D, to provide the best performance possible and ensure that all the compounds included are working together as they should. Pouring anything in the mix will upset this balance and the results will be unpredictable. It may be fine and it may not. How much are you willing to gamble? ;) Lemonade is yummy, but lemonade with an extra pound of sugar is ruined! |
| Steve Simmons |
| I seem to remember the consensus from some time back was that using a diesel oil would give the higher zinc levels without the higher cost. |
| Steve Postins |
| If your motor can take it without leaking, and your wallet can take it without hurting, Mobil 1 15w-50 (note the viscosity, other weights have lower levels of ZDDP), has the 'required' levels of ZDDP and is a good oil to boot. |
| Curtis Walker |
| Steve, while it's true that diesel oils were being used as a temporary "fix", there are two issues that everyone should be aware of. 1. Diesel oils were also forced to reduce zddp levels although the timetables allowed them to retain higher levels for some time after gasoline engine oils. This time however has passed, and now diesel oils are also lacking in zinc content. 2. Diesel oils contain high amounts of detergents, far beyond anything normally run in a gasoline engine. These detergents are required to keep the diesel engines reasonably clean during use. Arguably, the high level of detergents can reduce the lubricating properties of the oil making them less effective at protecting your MGB's engine. Not arguable however is the effect these detergents will have on a higher mileage gasoline engine. Changing to diesel oils may cause a lot of crud to be knocked loose from the nooks and crevices in your engine, and then circulate through your bearings and oil passages! On a newly rebuilt engine this would not be a problem. |
| Steve Simmons |
| Hi Search the midget and Sprite Technical archives there are many threads on this subject. Diesel oils are a no-no as is Valvolene racing for normal road cars. The issue is that modern oils have removed the zinc which protects parts like the cam which sees high contact pressure from the followers, hence additives - but even these have problems!. JohnT |
| John Turner (Midget & MGB) |
| It was recommended last year that Castrol 4 cycle motorcycle oils have the same levels of zddp as the old oils. I have been using Castrol 4T 20-50 for the last year and the oil pressure rarely drops below 70 lbs. I have checked the valve lash and no adjustment was needed. This is on a supercharged engine and it uses no oil to boot. RAY |
| RAY |
| All the talk of using oils not designed for gasoline auto engines is a bit scary to me. Zinc is not the only important component in engine oil. There are others even more important overall, and using an oil designed for a purpose other than what you're using it for can do far more damage than running a bit less ZDDP than specified. If 3-in-1 oil had high levels of ZDDP, that doesn't make it good for a car engine! Ok, that was a bit extreme, but y'all get the idea, I'm sure! :) I suppose some oils may be fine and others may not, but without definitive proof that a certain type of lubricant is safe to run in my car's engine, I prefer to not use it. |
| Steve Simmons |
| Within the years it has become very difficult in here to buy engine oil that meets the specs of 20W50 GTX as it was still sold in the 1980's. Of course, there is still GTX offered in here, but the formulation of this 'new' oil has been changed to avoid problems with catalytic converters and to meet EC pollution regulations for cars (not for bikes!). Five years ago, after it became hard to find any more old stocks, i changed to 20W50 motorcycle oil with HD specs and have had no issues with this since. Not in the V8, not in the 1800 GT and in the stage 6 roadster. Concernig construction and materials in HD engines, it seems to me very comparable to the stuff we are driving in our MG's. Ralph |
| Ralph |
| Having just read the article in the Moss magazine, can anyone explain, or point to a site that explains the difference in metallurgy that makes MG lifters and cams require ZDDP whilst my '94 Northstar and '05 Magnum engines do not? Are the MG parts (replacement, not original) made from poor materials, and if so, why? I seem to recall that back in the day, when we wanted good performance from very aggressive cams and solid lifters the parts were heat-treated and sometimes a 'nitriding' process used. Thx, |
| Edd Weninger |
| I dont know if you have Penrite classics oils in the states but it contains ZDDP, enough to still rate SG,SJ + and it is one of the very few that states it on the container. There are three classics for different vehicle types and all contain ZDDP. Also their GAS oil (LPG) is actually a "fleet oil" (Can be used on LPG, petrol and diesel) and contains a good percentage of ZDDP. Penrite is very popular in OZ with car buffs. I have noticed a move by the oil companies to allay ZDDP fears, as they mention it more in there web promotions. There is a Castrol classic with ZDDP but I think its rated SM as is Valvoline VR1 which means a small percentage of ZDDP. Denis |
| Denis4 |
| Edd, both the northstar, and magnum have roller lifters. The B lifter bore diameter is too small to use fit a roller lifter. The T series MG engines have a larger lifter bore, in which a roller lifter will fit.I have roller lifter camshaft kits for xpag MG engines. |
| Len Fanelli |
| I am the guy that sent the original question... As you can see from the above replies, there is a great deal of conflicting, and hence, confusing information. I decided to contact several oil companies to get there opinion. The following are their recommendations for their brand of oil. Castrol: Syntec 20W50 Valvoline: Racing oil, VR-1, 20W50 Shell: Rotella HD diesel/automotive, 15W40 Pennsoil Racing Oil, 20W50 Mobile: Mobile 1, 15W50 Delvac Diesel, 15W40, or 5W40 So there you have it. Still confusing, but this is from the horses mouth. |
| Frank Grimaldi |
| Taken from a Srite and Midget Archive - sorry its a bit long but it is a very comprehensive study. DCM McCullough, Minnesota, USA Directly from Amsoil tech bulletins-------- TSB: MO-2006-10-26 Date: 10/26/2006 Page 1 of 2 Subject: Flat Tappet and Camshaft Lubrication Technical Service Bulletin Product Description: AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Submitted By: TSSTPM Reviewed By: KM Approval By: COO Date: Distribution: ___Internal _X_All OBJECTIVE: To provide information about the use of motor oils formu- lated with lower levels of zinc and phosphorus additives in flat tappet and camshaft style engines. ISSUES: Engine oils contain anti-wear additives. The most common anti-wear chemistry is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP), which is a combination of zinc and phosphorus. In 2005 the Ameri- can Petroleum Institute (API) and International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) instituted API SM and ILSAC GF-4 quality standards. These two standards are closely related, with GF-4 being viscosity dependent and API SM applying to all SAE automotive viscosities. API SM/ILSAC GF-4 licensed oils with viscosity grades 0W-20 & 30, 5W-20 & 30, and 10W-30 are restricted to .06 - .08% phosphorus, while previous API SL/ILSAC GF-3 oils were restricted to .1% phosphorus. There is con- cern that oils containing lower levels of phosphorus are in- sufficient in protecting the high-contact regions of the flat tappets and camshaft lobes found in many older cars and high-performance engines. TECHNICAL DISCUSSION: During the development of API SM/ILSAC GF-4 the anti- wear requirements of flat tappets were given particular con- sideration by the engine manufacturers and by the oil indus- try. Engines with flat tappets were used to qualify API SM/ ILSAC GF-4 oils. The anti-wear requirements of these tests are severe. In one case where the same Sequence IVA en- gine test was used for previous higher zinc and phosphorus oils, the average camshaft wear limits were reduced, allow- ing only 90(?m) max wear for API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils compared to the former 120(?m) max wear limits. The re- sults showed that API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils protect factory designed flat tappet/camshaft engines just as well as previ- ous higher phosphorus API SL/ILSAC GF-3 oils. If the en- gine is new, rebuilt or is modified from stock with high- pressure valve springs, proper precautions should be taken to insure long camshaft life. These recommendations apply regardless of the lower zinc and phosphorus associated with API SM/ILSAC GF-4 specifications. Lower quality lifters are increasing in popularity. These lifters may not have the proper metallurgy to withstand long-term service or, in particular, the extra force applied by high-pressure valve springs. Lifter quality should be con- sidered as a contributing factor where excessive wear or premature failure is experienced. RECOMMENDATION: For all new or rebuilt engines with flat tappets, proper as- sembly lubes and oil additives should be used during the break-in phase. These additives provide extra protection at the point of contact, helping the flat tappet face to properly mate with the cam lobe. Once the break-in phase is over, these additives should not be used. This includes the GM product E.O.S., which is an assembly lubricant only and is not to be used, as the label clearly states, as an engine oil additive. High-performance modified engines benefit from oils with superior film strength and anti-wear properties. The flat tappet/camshaft lobe interface is the one area in an engine that has extreme contact load. That load increases signifi- cantly where non-stock, high-pressure valve springs are used. The use of properly formulated engine oils for this application will help reduce wear and extend the flat tappet/ camshaft life. There are many more ways to achieve good anti-wear per- formance than just using zinc and phosphorus compounds alone. Zinc and phosphorus are widely used because they are the most cost effective solutions to achieve anti-wear properties. AMSOIL INC., AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2006 Submitted By: AA Approval By: AA Date: 10/26/06 TSB: MO-2006-10-26 Date: 10/26/2006 Page 2 of 2 Subject: Flat Tappet and Camshaft Lubrication Technical Service Bulletin Product Description: AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Submitted By: AA Reviewed By: KM Approval By: AA Date: 10/26/06 Distribution: ___Internal _X_All In addition to zinc and phosphorus compounds, AMSOIL combines "ashless" anti-wear and friction modifier addi- tives with high quality synthetic oils to achieve truly supe- rior anti-wear performance, including in flat tappet appli- cations. AMSOIL 0W-30 (TSO), 5W-30 (ASL) and 10W-30 (ATM) are premium synthetic, API SM (gasoline)/CF (off-road diesel)/ ILSAC GF-4 formulations containing a proprietary combination of zinc and phosphorus, detergent and friction modifier additives to generate exceptional anti-wear properties as demonstrated in the four-ball wear test. These oils are recommended for use in newer and older engines with flat tappets in both stock and high- performance configurations. AMSOIL 20W-50 (TRO) is a premium synthetic racing oil for gasoline engines with superior film strength and anti-wear protection. It is excellent for street or race use in cars, hot rods, and trucks or boats. It is the preferred choice for highly modified, high horsepower engines. AMSOIL 10W-40 (AMO), 15W-40 (AME) and 20W-50 (ARO) are premium synthetic, API SL (gasoline)/CI-4 Plus (heavy-duty, on-road diesel) quality formulations. They are an excellent choice for those who desire diesel style engine oils recommended for use in both gasoline and diesel engines. AMSOIL INC., AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2006 |
| John Turner (Midget & MGB) |
| To the people who say they have changed to motor-cycle or whatever oils and have had no problems since I'd say I have continued to buy GTX and the like and 'have had no problems since' as well. An individuals experience of 'no problems' is meaningless, and is no better than the chap I saw tearing up little bits of paper and scattering them in the wind. "What are you doing?", I asked. He replied "I'm keeping the elephants away". I said "But there aren't any elephants in Birmingham" and he replied "Shows it works then." As Frank says the information is confusing and conflicting, and one thing you cannot do is take the word of the people who manufacture it and sell it, they are hardly going to tell you something different! Over the years it seems to me that companies in America can get away with claiming absolutely anything in adverts. In the UK all adverts have to be justifiable and provable, which is why you never see adverts for those magic pellets that convert your engine to lead-free, and I have never seen anything about ZDDP here either. The most important thing with oil is to buy a 'name', of the correct grade, and change it regularly. The variation in different makes of *filter* will have far more bearing (pun not intended) on the life of an engine than ever ZDDP or not will. |
| Paul Hunt |
| Paul, seems as if there are strange differeces concernig the markets these oils are offered on. In Germany it seems to be impossible to buy engine oil for old cars, so you have to go for very special low volume brands, just don't ask for prices (in excess of the most expensive synthetic brands). Importing engine oil yourself is difficult due to the green transportation regulations in here, so you have to considre alternatives. When i did my stage 6 engine for the roadster (122 rwhp on the rr at 54 meters above sea level) i first tried the today's version of Castrol GTX and damaged my lifters and cam within 1.5K Mls. (Rockwell tested before to 56 to 58 deg R.). As the engine and cam was run in according to the specs quoted by Piper, there was nothing wrong with the engine but with the insufficieant quality of the oil delivered in here nowerdays. With a new Piper 285/2 and new lifters the engine runs fine on Texaco 20W50 Harley-Davidson Motorcicle oil since. BTW.: The ign. limiter cuts in at 6800 rpm and there have not been any signs of wear with this oil within the last four years and it is not a car mentioned for cruising but for fast road and circuit use. Ralph |
| Ralph |
| Having torn down and rebuilt hundreds of motorcycle engines I can say that the oils designed for them are definetly superior. These engines are run under extreme conditions and require the best lubricants available. Unfortunatly, the U.S., in their infinite wisdom, reduces the the amount of ZDDP each year to increase the life of catalytic converters that the manufacturers are required to warranty for 100,000 miles. There are vested interests involved here and in the end it is all about money and profits. RAY |
| RAY |
| Ralph - I can't speak for the formulation of GTX supplied in Germany but if you sau your lifters and cam were damaged in as little as 1500 miles I'd be looking at the cam and lifters, or something in the assembly like too high a lift and the valves getting coil-bound, and not the oil. |
| Paul Hunt |
| Paul, thank you for your tips. Doing several engines every year, these problems are well known to me but did not help to find another reason than poor quality aditives in the oil of my own B-engine. Not too much lift, no coil binding, no missalignment, no insufficiend preparation of new parts... As i never use reground cams or refubrished lifters, i can not imagine that Piper send me some junk in this case, as there never ever had been problems with the quality of their hardware. Another oil that i tested with very good results is LiquiMolly Mos2 semisynthetic, although it is strange to run in the bores with the aditives in this product. As we all know, there are no realy hard and fast rules upon this theme, it is a question of personal experiance and investigatin into details. Ray is very clost to the point, it seems to be the problem of loyers today, keeping repairs off from modern cars, as long as there is a varranty to be noticed! Just reading oppinions that sound O.K. does not realy help. Ralph |
| Ralph |
| I have been using Kendall GT-1 High Performance 20W-50 motor oil. The 20W-50 is fortified with ZDDP for flat tapppet high performance engines at .12%. It is a well respected lubricant over the decades used quite a bit in racing, and I like it because it is easy to get at auto parts stores and priced reasonably. There must be something to the claims of camshaft and lifter failure due to the reduced ZDDP levels, so I figure why take a chance. Ralph |
| Ralph |
| I have some friends with late 60's muscle cars that will only use the Kendall performance oil mentioned by Ralph. They have used it for years with good results...I tried it over the course of a couple thousand miles in my 66b and I was uncomfortable with the drop in oil pressure I was getting during hot idle ... much more extreme than I was accustom to with Castrol GTX.. I did an oil change with Kendall again with same results...after a couple thousand back to GTX and regular pressure variation...so I stick to GTX and motor is happy... While we're talking about additives: My engine was rebuilt in '85 so Im not sure if it has hardened seats or not. Does anyone know if hardened seats were commonly used in '85? |
| jjralston |
| When I had a spare head prepared for my '67 B in the early 80s I installed hardened inserts in the intake and exhaust ports. At the time this was considered a wise investment as the fuels available would never have the cooling capacity of the lead addatives again. Whether the PO had the hardened seats installed in yours is impossible to say without the shop bills. By the the way it is usually not necessary to install intake seats as they are cooled by the incoming air and fuel. I did it for peace of mind and the fact that I intended to keep the car indefenitally. I still have it to this day and the head has not been apart since. RAY |
| RAY |
| I have run Kendall for many years in all my cars. GT1 20W50 in the MG's with no problems. Kendall is now owned by Coneco Phillips. |
| J Heisenfeldt |
| I think I would agree with Paul on this one. Is it really something the average user is going to notice or have problems with? If you're rebuilding your engine so many time you can actually make a non objective observation on one oils performance compared to another then you're probably not an average user! Of course every oil company is going to say their oil is the best and contains the right stuff for whatever they want you to put it in. How often do you ever see a company advertise their product as anything but the best? I will stick to regular changes of oil and filter using the usual GTX. It's cheap enough here that the cost doesn't matter and my car won't be under heavy use when she's done so I think that should work for me. I am hoping it's a good, long time before I have to go back inside that engine again! Does anyone remember those old informercials for some oil additive (Motor-up?) where they removed the sump and drained all the all then sprayed water on the crank and acted amazed that the engine was still running! Simon |
| Simon Jansen |
| Ray, Do you happen to know the zinc and phosphorus levels in the Castrol 4t oil. Also is there a similar mandate on motorcycles to reduce the levels in the future such that we might miss this being removed if we were to switch over if we are not following the motorcycle literature. Do modern motorcyles have catalytic convertors? Thanks Frank |
| Frank Mooring |
| Modern street going bikes are increasingly coming through eguipped with cats. However, the Castrol 4t is designed for off road use and therefore falls under different rules. I have yet to see a proposal to reduce the additives in the off road oils. If anything the additive packages are increasing with the higher horsepower of the newer machines. RAY |
| RAY |
| T add to that, these oils are required to meet Japanese standards. Look for a JA listing on the oil container. RAY |
| RAY |
| Have friends who have ignored the fact that Castrol GTX 20/50 is now lacking in ZDDP, to their peril. Some newly build motors have only lasted 5000 miles due to running them in with the wrong oil. Helped a friend the other day to replace the cam in his mgtf, due to excessive wear, due to the lack of ZDDP. Both my cars, a 79 MGB LE and a 63 Healey run on Valvoline VR1. At $3.50 a litre, why not be safe. Kim R. |
| K Rutherford |
| Simon - how's that MG erbuild of yours coming along? I just checked your site after a couple of months - no Summer updates yet, huh? Back on topic, and with regard to the Kendall oils mentioned above, the Mobil 1 15w-50 has MUCH better hot idle pressure than the Castrol GTX I'd been using (although that could also be due to the Ryco instead of Fram filter). I'm talking a steady 45-50 psi instead of 30-40 with the Castrol. It's not leaking out either! Very happy. |
| Curtis Walker |
| Curtis, I am getting there. I need to do a big update to my site once I figure out why my camera isn't talking to my PC anymore! I am hoping to start painting soon. |
| Simon Jansen |
| As this topic has come up a number of times and has a similar discussion on a lot of car websites, it would be helpful if there was some good evidence of the problem and the solution. As I first read about this problem the main need for ZDDP additive was for new engines. I heard horror stories of engines not lasting 10,000 miles I have not seen a lot about engines that have higher milage. I have been using Valvoline VR racing oil in my TD (new rebuild) and in my 67 B (90,000 original miles). As this is a 20/50, I can't see any reason that it would not be as good as any other we used in the past. With the number of flat tappet cars still out there, I would think the controversy on this issue would have more specific information. |
| Bruce-C |
This thread was discussed between 15/01/2009 and 24/01/2009
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