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MG MGF Technical - ABS is it a possible retro fit?

Hey guys

Well after fiddling with the brakes on my F I fitted Mintex 1177's all round which are to be honest... Brutal!

Forget brake dust this stuff is SWARF!

Obviously Mintax have taken to fitting granite onto pads. The results are utterly astounding really aggressive braking is acheivable, forget your big discs conversions, these pads would grind them down to nothing pretty quickly! but as the standard discs are cheap as chips who cares if you have to replace them every year or so?

One major problem though. It is very very easy to overcome the tyres grip by pressing the brake pedal. Too easy really, Whilst the pads are fine for track days it makes for scary stuff sliding around on the road...but there is a solution ABS!

I knew I should have specified this as soon as the car was delivered 8 years ago. So here is the $64,000 question.

Can Standard MGR ABS be retro-fitted?
Does anybody know? and what is involved?
Neil

The answer to that is 'Yes'

What is involved? Rather a lot. :o( Obviously, this is not something that I have attempted - but second hand parts etc should now make a retro-fit possible and in the rhelms of affordability.

What parts would you need? I think you'd need to do rather a lot of research using the RAVE discs and the EPC to identify the differences between your bog-standard '96 MGF 1.8i and a car fitted with ABS.

At a guess, you'd need:
1. ABS wheel hubs and sensors
2. ABS brake lines
3. ABS controller
4. Complete MGF wiring loom for ABS car (the bit that makes this conversion very expensive in terms of labour and time)

Certainly not a comprehensive list - but it gives a general idea of what would be involved on your car.

It would certainly be cheaper to sell your car and buy another MGF with ABS already installed... :o( But that's without counting on the 'emotional' attachment to your existing steed.
Rob Bell

Hi Neil,
What is this forget brake dust, this is SWARF. Explain SWARF. Do these Mintex 1177 all round really make the Goodyear Eagles lock up easily? The pedal preasure is as far as I am concerned the major factor. It is like having no servo on the brakes. No-body seems to mention increased servo action as a remedy. Also the handbrake is the so bad it cannot lock up the wheels of an MGF to do a handbreak turn.
Over to you, or Will or anybody that can sort out rubbish brakes on MGF vvc Year 2000.
Thanks Neil and Will and all others.
chris

Neil, Stay with what you have. ABS is great. Go for that, but no where on an MGF will anybody get great braking on the road or even a decent handbreak. Why did I buy an MGF. Loades would second this.
Chris.
chris

>> What is this forget brake dust, this is SWARF. Explain SWARF. Do these Mintex 1177 all round really make the Goodyear Eagles lock up easily? <<

That isn't my experience with these pads Chris - I find them nicely progressive and aggressive ;o) The 1177 pads are full-on race pads and are incredibly hard, but operate with a high coefficient of friction over a very wide temperature range. Thus they are ideal for both road and track (especially as we're stuck with dissappointly small 240mm discs). I suspect that the 'swarf' reference is a tongue in cheek reference to how incredibly abrasive these pads can be ;o) LOL

The fact that Neil can get lock up clearly shows that he's able to apply enough braking force to exceed the grip from the Toyos he has fitted. Perhaps there is a little too much front-bias to his brakes? Neil, I wonder if it is worth looking at your bias valve - and maybe replace it with one from a Trophy?

Having said all that, tyre grip is the single greatest determinant of braking performance. (There's a bit more on brake theory here: http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/brakes/big_brakes/Big_Brakes.htm)

>>The pedal preasure is as far as I am concerned the major factor. It is like having no servo on the brakes. No-body seems to mention increased servo action as a remedy. Also the handbrake is the so bad it cannot lock up the wheels of an MGF to do a handbreak turn.<<

Increasing the 'servo action' has no impact on braking efficiency. It simply reduces the amount of effort that you, the driver, need apply to the brake pedal to obtain a given level of retardation. The maximal braking effort remains the same all the way irrespective of hydro-mechanic assistance.

With respect to hand brake turns - not something I do very often (well, except at North Weald activity days! LOL) - but the hand brake is fine on my car. I guess that you're a handbrake turn demon? As you know there is a technique involved in doing this on a RWD car... Good fun though.

From what you are saying, you are generally disappointed with your braking performance. The high pedal pressures you seem to be describing seems odd: might be worth discussing your problems with an mg specialist - it may be that there is a problem somewhere - be that with a seizing caliper (common at the rear) or with worn/aged components else where in the 'chain' between the brake pedal and the brake pads...
Rob Bell

'feeling like there is no assistance' may be a symptom of a vacume leak in the servo, or a kink in the vacume pipe. Mine certainly feels like it has plenty of assistance, but then I drive a car without servo assistance, so I know what it actually feels like!

Simple test for kinked/disconnected pipe:
get into car, pump brake pedal untill it goes all hard. press pedal with enogh force to feel it pushing back, now turn on engine, it should go soft(er).

Simple test for vacume leak:
start engine, switch off engine, leave 5 mins, now pump pedal, it should be soft, and get hard after about 3 presses.
Will Munns

Brake Bias valve from trophy hmmm! I'll have to poke about a bit.

well the car is on axle stands at the moment with no rad and the wheels off, so it all looks a bit sad at the moment!

seriously it scared me bigtime sliding along followed by a large plume of tyre smoke with the boot of the mondeo looming up at me !

Come on! just F***ing stop!!!!!!!!!!! will ya!!!!!!!!!!

it takes hardly any pressure to lock them up either!
so I was gradually letting foot pressure off as the mondeo approached!! Jeez!. Driving skills beyond normallity I think !
most normal people would have kept their foot planted!

progressive? no!
agressive? yes! totally !
and it really is swarf (swirls/bits of metal from the brake discs for those of you who have never seen a machine shop) in the wheels plus a ton of black dust.
1177's are made of granite! after 20 miles I can already see the disc wear!

seriously it's like having a hi fi amp that is so powerful that it distorts the speakers over a third volume!

might just have to keep the front pads for track days and revert to greenstuff for safety reasons for the rest of the time, leaving the 1177 Barnie Rubbles in the rears may have the effect of more rear brake bias.

I feel some evil experiments coming on, Just as well the tyres are coming to the end of their life!

They think it's all over SCHREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH
It is now!!!!!


Neil

Neil,

What is COF of 1177's and what are you comparing with? and what speed are you braking from?

Greenstuff have COF of .46 but only go to 550deg.

Paul
Paul

COF? Dunno mate, it'as got to be really high
really dramatic compared to greenstuff

550? well it's been over that many times!

Neil

The CoF data for the 1177s isn't readily available off the web (at least, not as far as I can find!) - but I assume that the CoF is higher than for the 1166s (0.48) and over a much wider temperature range (650¼C)... they'll eat GS pads for breakfast. And the discs.

>> after 20 miles I can already see the disc wear! <<

Is the pattern of wear even Neil? I did have problems with one batch of pads that broke up and chewed the discs to pieces within 200 miles... :o( But they STILL worked incredibly well!!! 8oO
Rob Bell

Forgot to link the information I did find: http://www.mintex.co.uk/index.html
Rob Bell

Rob/Neil

This info would suggest not more than .48, maybe worth an email to find out.

http://www.mintexracing.com/prodspec/perf_data.htm#1

It is the temperature covered which can be key and hence Greenstuff is a road pad.

Paul
Paul

Paul, I don't believe that these data presented are representative of the Mintex 1177 pads...

The CoF developed by a pad is always temperature dependent, and yes, 1177s are full race pads, and thus have a much larger operating range.
Rob Bell

Rob,

It was only indication the full top range race spec still only have about.48, indicating that perhaps 1177's are no higher.

Mintex 1144 is about .32

1177's being race pads may have low COF when cold leading to excessive pedal pressure at first which when the pads warm suddenly bite and lock wheels!

Race pads have a higher operating range and depending upon organic content only fade at higher temps.

Paul
Paul

>> 1177's being race pads may have low COF when cold leading to excessive pedal pressure at first which when the pads warm suddenly bite and lock wheels! <<

Paul, I can tell you from personal experience with these pads that the CoF with 1177s from cold is definitely NOT low - and Neil's experience with them would appear to support this view too! ;o)
Rob Bell

Rob

M1177 is an obsolete material and has been replaced by F4. You will find F4 details on the Mintex Racing web site at www.mintexracing.com

Paul
Paul

Hmm, interesting Paul. I'd already twigged that the 1177 pads had been out of production - but I thought that that was because they were produced in batches (MGF pads must surely be low-production run stuff, despite the number of MGFs out on track around the world).

I wonder if MGF pads will come in the new F4 compound?
Rob Bell

So...

After reading the "big brake mistake" article, I felt depressed!!!

This means that after finishing my three years warranty, I couldn't upgrade my brakes to the HiSpeec kit I've choose some months ago?

Is better to keep with the standar brakes? Or it would be simply a question of altering the bias front/rear?

And what would be the size of the pistons to make them equal (or at least reasonablely similar to the original piston size?

And what about the presure/volume?

I have a good headache tonight...

See you
Spinder00

Spinder - you're in luck - the piston areas used by the HiSpec conversion is practically the same as the standard sliding type calipers, so no problem in that respect.

The balance of the brakes can be largely maintained by specifying different pads for the rear caliper - or, if HiSpec have completed their rear wheel conversion, go for their rear conversion as well. Bear in mind too that HiSpec do their 285mm discs for the rear standard caliper as well...

The idea behind the 'big brake mistake' article was to highlight potential pitfalls. So long as you go into brake modification with open eyes, you're less likely to get into trouble. And the likes of HiSpec, Mike Satur etc etc should be able to provide you with plenty of good practical advice.

Good news too that the like of Paul Nothard are very happy with their HiSpec set up :o)
Rob Bell

Rob,

Try Questmead in Rochdale who are the largest UK distributor of Mintex Racing and a helpful technical source as well.
www.questmead.co.uk

Paul

Paul

Thanks Paul - I'll drop them an email to get some follow up on this :o)
Rob Bell

Possibly a naive question but here goes.

Scenario: 1177s fitted, first thing in the morning, brakes stone cold. You start the car, drive 100 yards down the read and then brake.

What happens?
Steve Ratledge

depends how hard you push!

push lightly. you are startled by the braking effect
really impressive.

you press a bit harder. your teeth fall out and your wheels fill with swarf.

you press a little harder. like you would normally, the wheels lock up, you slide eventually to a stop producing a nice flat spot on your tyres and then you are overtaken by a cloud of tyre smoke! You then drive the 100yds back home to change your trousers!!!



Neil

Neil - I think you are still on a learning curve with those pads! LOL Also seems that the rears could perform more work - but playing with bias valves is a very dangerous business! :o(
Rob Bell

Rob, do you use 1177 at the rear, front or both?
Steve Ratledge

Up to recently, I was using 1177s all round Steve. I'd still be using them now had I been able to source a set of replacement 1177 rear pads (currently have 1166s in there as 'the next best thing').
Rob Bell

I got 1177's from Mike Satur he may still have some rears
I think I got the last set of fronts


Neil

>> M1177 is an obsolete material and has been replaced by F4. You will find F4 details on the Mintex Racing web site at www.mintexracing.com <<

>> Try Questmead in Rochdale who are the largest UK distributor of Mintex Racing and a helpful technical source as well. <<

Thanks Paul: I've got some clarification on the 1177 issue from John @ Questmead. 1177s are still current pads. As I suspected, they are made in batches according to demand. The minimum order for them to make new pads (£64.82 + VAT + P&P) is 3-5 sets.

So, is anyone in the market for a set?
Rob Bell

Having just fitted some 1144's to the yellow peril I'm getting brake squeal did I miss something when fitting them ? the old pads had what I would call an anti squeal plate "fixed" i.e. It was bonded to the backplate of the pads, the new ones didn't.
Mike.
Mike (@home)

Rob,

Interesting as the information was from TMD friction so perhaps old stock? What about availability of F4?

Paul
Paul

Mike,

Bear with the 1144s - the squeaking usually stops after a little while. I've had several sets, and they've all squealed when braking gently at low speed e.g. in slow moving traffic.
Dave Livingstone

Thanks Dave, just something I'll have to live with, the difference I feel with these pads over OEM's is somehow a slightly softer pedal with more feel over the braking , very difficult to explain , you need to feel it to understand it. But better overall.
Mike
Mike (@home)

Paul, I think you're right - probably was a question of 'old stock'. I didn't get an answer specifically about the F4 pads - but then the thrust of my question was "are 1177s now really obsolete?"

Mike, Mintex pads are often a little noisy to start off with - you often get a rumbling sounds as well if you have grooved discs fitted.

The noise shouldn't be a squeal as such through - more a squeak... nuts, the limitation of the written word on the internet - I bet that really doesn't clarify anything for you, sorry. But if you are worried, take the wheels off and ensure that the pad guides in the calipers are clean, that the pads and anti-squeal shims move easily.
Rob Bell

Rob,
noise disappears as soon as the brakes are released and the car rolls easily, so I don't think anything binding, just a squeek/squeal at low speed as Dave described, not unduly worried, also plain discs so no rumbling thankfully. I sandpapered the locating pins gently to remove muck, scrapped and blew muck from calipers as best I could, so I'll see how it goes.
Mike.
Mike (@home)

Should be fine as you say Mike. The sound ought to fade away once the pads start to bed in :o)
Rob Bell

Rob re the 1177 pads, is your price for front or rear pads?

Either way I am up for a set.
Steve Ratledge

I was discussing rear pads with John - so I'll check how much fronts will cost.

Are you after a full set - front and rear Steve?

Anyone else in the market? If we get one more order, we can get another batch made.
Rob Bell

Rob,

Since 1144s are no cheaper than 1177s, I may go with them on the rear next time. So count me in.

Dave
Dave Livingstone

Okay Dave...

That'll be:
Rob
Steve
Dave
Rob Bell

Rob, yes a full set - front & rear please.
Steve Ratledge

Okay:

Rob: F&R
Steve: R&R
Dave: R

Anyone else after a set of front 1177 pads? We need one more to make a minimum order...
Rob Bell

Rob,

I had a brief chat to former race "M" non specific user non F.

First corner last lap naff.

Testing prototype ceramic EBC.
Between these and Hawk.

Anyone tried these ceramic available from MS?

Paul
Paul

Boing anyone else after a set of front 1177 pads? We need one more to make a minimum order...
Steve Ratledge

This thread was discussed between 08/03/2004 and 29/03/2004

MG MGF Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGF Technical BBS is active now.