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MG MGF Technical - Big Brake options
|I have a Mk 1 F. |
I went on a track day...and the brakes Fried!!
Has anybody got a Mike Satur Big Brake kit that they dont want, or can anybody recommend a sensibly priced big brake option.
I have the green stuff pads which at least seem to stop the fronts locking up but they are nothing like enough. Seriously my wife's mummybarge not only accelerates quicker and has a higher top speed, but also stops faster than my car!!!!!!
I went from standard brakes to Roversport grooved discs, braided hoses, Mintex 1144 pads (all front and back) and Dot 5 brake fluid. These work fine for track days and are a reasonable upgrade pricewise. However, I did get them to smoke on Andrew Walsh's North Weald driver training day! I've now gone for Trophy 4 pots on the front, but a) you need Trophy alloys to fit them under and b) they are expensive.
P.S. Can I put you on a list I'm compiling of MG owners interested in track days? If so, shall I use the email addy on your post or can you send me another?
Scarlet Fever has the new MS big brakes with the red calipers and from his comments a while back they are very good.
I've got EBC grooved and they work very well with the green pads (I wouldn't use these on regular track days), but mintex have been rated very well. I couldn't justify the extra expense for mostly road use. Rob uses his F in sprints etc and will probably be along soon with some advice. I went for the EBC kit over the others on price. It cost me £170 including MGR fitting for the front disks and pads and they work fine, but others will add their 2p worth I'm sure.
|Like Dave, I use Roversport grooved discs and Mintex pads (albeit with 1177 pads). Also had the hoses replaced with braided items, and fitted a servo support bracket.|
Braking performance is superb - and only one got a hint of inconsistant braking behaviour after 20 miles of full-on track day laps!
An alternative to Mike's excellent set up are the kits supplied by HiSpec - Paul Nothard fitted these to his F, and seems happy with them (are you out there Paul?) http://www.hispecmotorsport.co.uk/new_page_11.htm - these kits have an advantage in that the rear discs are also upgraded - an oft missed opportunity to improve the MGF's braking performance.
MS aluminium and titanium 4 pot calipers
280mm drilled discs
Black Diamond pads
Braided brake hoses
MS drilled and grooved brake discs
Mintex C-Tech 1155 pads
Braided brake hoses
Absolutely fantastic IMO, all in around the £650.00 mark and one of the best mods i have done. However, i have had the opportunity of driving Rob's car and his Mintex set up ain't too different in feel to mine, i suspect it was also less money so maybe this would be a better option for you Niel?
|has no-one got the AP Racing stuff? 295mm discs, AP 4 pot callipers etc.|
they say they fit behind the std VVC 15" wheels!
The 'Trophy/TF 160' front discs and 4 pots are from AP racing, but these won't fit 15" or even standard 16" alloys. AP did make another MG compatible 'big brake' kit, before the Trophy came out, but this was massively expensive - I'm talking over £1,000 and I'm still not sure if this did fit 15".
|Drew, I think that the kit you are alluding to was designed for the MGF Cup cars? In this case, they'd have to fit behind the 16" wheel, not the 15".|
To my knowledge, the HiSpec kit is the only one that'll fit behind standard 15" wheels (although, even here, probably not the original 1.8 MPi 6-spoke design).
>>Absolutely fantastic IMO, all in around the £650.00 mark and one of the best mods i have done. However, i have had the opportunity of driving Rob's car and his Mintex set up ain't too different in feel to mine, i suspect it was also less money so maybe this would be a better option for you Niel?<<
Yes, my brakes were cheaper - but two things to note:
1. the 1177 pads are only available through MG Sport and Racing - so you'll need some form of racing licence to get hold of these.
2. the pads are fearsomely expensive - so over the long term, Mike's kit may work out as being better value...
The combo of 1144 pads, Roversport (or EBC) grooved discs, braided hoses and a servo support bracket is probably the best option before spending more serious money on bigger discs and new calipers.
|>>I went from standard brakes to Roversport grooved discs, braided hoses, Mintex 1144 pads (all front and back) and Dot 5 brake fluid. |
I'm running this same set up and the difference over standard is amazing. you do notice a bit of fade after a good few laps round the track, or consecutive heavy use.
This setup is more than suitable for fast road use and track days.
What are the brakes used on the cup cars? they don't have grooved or drilled disks.
|I did the Donington trackday at Easter last year ( a few other from this thread were there) with completely standard brakes and pads.|
After 6? sessions on track I had no problems with fade, pedal travel or anything else even when I was wearing out a set of Dunlop 01J's - in fact the same pads are still in the car now!
Having driven someone else's standard class racer with 1177's etc on it I didn't find them to be any better.
The F is 'fortunate' in having such an OTT servo ratio that you can actually get away with running pads as hard as 1177 and still stop the car. The pads will be too cold to work properly for most of the time.
If you really want to improve efficiency then it's better to move the centre of effort further out from the axis of rotation then worry about friction materials. Alternative pads may have a slightly higher coefficient of friction but the differences are slight compared to improving the mechanical advantage of the brakes.
|>>Having driven someone else's standard class racer with 1177's etc on it I didn't find them to be any better.<<|
Jeepers Alan, I have to strongly disagree with you there. When I tried Mike Pollard's car for the first time (i.e. same brakes as mine are now - 1177s and Roversport discs) - I had to peel my face off the windscreen (metaphorically speaking of course!)
1177s are NOTHING like the standard pads. They bite sharply even when cold, and then when they (rapidly - the sole benefit of such ridiculously small diameter discs) reach operating temperature, they become ferocious.
>>The F is 'fortunate' in having such an OTT servo ratio that you can actually get away with running pads as hard as 1177 and still stop the car. The pads will be too cold to work properly for most of the time.<<
That is, I am sure, true. However, the reason why 1177s work so well is because they have a very high mu - even when cold, which is admittedly unusual amongst 'racing' pads. Downside is that they are incredibly abrasive - so I expect to be changing my discs at the same time as my pads in the next 10k miles.
The maintenance costs are therefore high in terms of replacing wearing parts. This is the point I was making in regard to Andy's comparison with Mike Satur's system - his system, although more costly to buy in the first instance, is cheaper to 'maintain.'
If going for road car brakes, I'd go for a 'big brake conversion' - but the standard class sprint and race regs stipulate use of either standard or Roversport equipment, which sadly rules this option out for me :o(
>>If you really want to improve efficiency then it's better to move the centre of effort further out from the axis of rotation then worry about friction materials. Alternative pads may have a slightly higher coefficient of friction but the differences are slight compared to improving the mechanical advantage of the brakes. <<
Yeah, I'd agree with this (and you could add a mention of increased clamping forces - the standard sliding calliper design is a long way from being the best), but with the exception of full-competition pads ;o)
|not what it says on their site!!|
yeah i did know they are £1000+
>>>>only available through MG Sport and Racing - so you'll need some form of racing licence to get hold of these.
depends who you know ;)
|Thanks Drew - just bookmarked the page! :o) |
Evidently not based on the MGF Cup car then! ;o)
>>depends who you know ;)<<
Doesn't it always? :o/
|>> What are the brakes used on the cup cars? they don't have grooved or drilled disks. <<|
Can I get hold on the Roversport grooved discs, without a license and being on the continent ?
Any part numbers available (discs and 1177 pads) ?
Would be nice if this combo fits with the standard 15" MPi wheels.
|Sorry Erik, I don't have the part numbers for the discs - I got these through Techspeed Motorsport. [BTW I'm talking about the standard sized items here, not the MGF Cup car's AP Racing discs] Fortunately, you do not need a comp licence for these, and they *should* be available through your dealer. There are two other alternative options:|
1. contact Techspeed, and see if they'll send you a set by mail.
2. Obtain a set of EBC grooved discs - from what I've seen, they look practically identical to the Roversport items, and are of course available through B&G etc.
I still have the box for the pads- I'll see what codes are on that and give these to you, and see if you have any luck ordering them through your local motor factor.
Yes I'm out here Rob! :o)
Due to a seriously broken piston/pad (http://dumyat.nothard.org.uk/pjn/PicHomePage0/frame.html) after a track day I replaced the fronts with the HiSpec brakes.
I have 15" wheels and used to have Mintex 1177s all round. As Rob confirms, they were and still are superb brakes!!!
I looked around for options, and HiSpec were the only real calliper replacement option for 15" wheels.
For now I've kept 1177s at the rear and gone with Mintex 1155s at the front.
I rate them highly. As good as the 1177s but with more feel. Not tried them in anger at a track day yet though. :-(
Interestingly I drove a TF160 the other day and the brakes simply did not compare. The HiSpec (with 1155s) are much better than the trophy brakes.
One thing to watch for is the brake balance though. As soon as one wheel locks up your ABS kicks in - probably too early - and the raw braking suffers.
Just my tuppence worth.
|How's your car's brake balance Paul?|
|So far so good Rob. Balance feels good.|
ABS hardly locks up... even in the wet.
Not hammered it yet though.
Have briefly tried the car on the track, but to be totally honest the brakes had not been bled properly. (10 nipples!!! Wah!) On the first few laps the brakes (balance and stopping power) compared favourably with the 1177s. Gave up pushing as the air in the systems came into play! :-(
Any top tips for brake bleeding?
Think I'm gonna get it purged through by the garage. Easier! :o)
|>>Any top tips for brake bleeding?<<|
Other than the usual "start from the furthest point away from the master cylinder," no. :o( It's just a bugger to do properly. The factory has a vacuum machine to get this job right - shame that no garage that I know of has this kind of equipment :o(
Fancy doing this North Wealds action day on the 28th?
|Can't get that day off work. :-(|
I usually use a tiny bit of grease around the upper part of the nipple windings to ensure that all air-bubbles seen comming out really comes from the system ! Otherwise there can be an never ending bleeding process as the air is entering via the windings in the bleeder nipple. This happends due to the "injection principle" of fluid passing and creating a suction . A bit hard to explain ...
yeah i did know they are £1000+ <<
Eeeek! Makes the MS one look like a total bargain @ £650.00 ish.
>> The factory has a vacuum machine to get this job right - shame that no garage that I know of has this kind of equipment :o( <<
Mike Satur has one, it is made by 'liquid levers' and works off of the car battery. When he did my 4 pots, he removed the spare wheel and placed the vacuum pump in the recess, then he connected it up to the master cylinder and battery. The pump was in the bonnet recess because the car was up on ramps making access to the bleed nipples easier. Lastly he opened the bleed nipples on the brake calipers (the MS 4 pots have 1 nipple per wheel due to a rather neat copper pipe arrangement), switched the pump on and let it do it's stuff. I was impressed. Incedentally, the Essex Roadsters Hydragas Pump is also made by liquid levers and they are similar in appearance and size, i wonder how much one of them is... ;-)
|A worth while investment there Andy!|
|I saw in safety fast a couple of Cup cars for sale. How much work would it take to make one of these road legal?|
One way of getting a seam welded MGF shell I suppose....:-)
|I dunno all these vast amounts of dosh and all i want is bigger discs and some spacers for the calipers. |
MS does a big disc kit for £230 which I think is a lot for 2 VW discs and a pair of ally spacers but it might be the only option. I'll see if he will haggle!
|sounds simmilar to mine for the metro's.|
I have the bigger discs and spacers - bought from HJW motorsport - don't think they are going anymore.
To be honest I don't rate the upgrade - they look good and there is an improvement in braking performance but Robs set up was still better - and I don't think he had the braided hoses when I tried his car.
This seems to indicate that Robs set up is the best bet for economics and 4 pot calipers are the way to go for ultimate braking performamce.
The Hi Spec kit or Mikes upgrade are on my list for next year.
|>sounds simmilar to mine for the metro's.<<|
They certainly work with the F Drew. :o)
>>I have the bigger discs and spacers - bought from HJW motorsport - don't think they are going anymore.<<
Unfortunately you are right Paul. Hector closed his operation (it was a hobby business) soon after shipping your discs :o(
And yes, you're right - I didn't have the braided hoses back then. Highlights the problem with big discs used with standard calipers; the swept area is reduced because the caliper is designed to 'bite' a smaller radius disc, so when mated to a larger disc, it cannot be mounted close enough to enable the whole pad surface to come into contact with the disc.
Paul, I wonder if you may be able to save some pennies by just purchasing a new pair of calipers? With a suitable bracket, you might even be able to use the MG/AP caliper (the disc diameter is smaller, so the caliper may not then foul the wheel - something to discuss with Roy and Marvin?)
This thread was discussed between 18/11/2002 and 22/11/2002
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