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MG MGF Technical - Brake Discs ?
|How long should a pair of brake discs last. I just been told by a garage thats setting my tracking that my my discs are worn and just legal ?|
My F has done 26000 miles. How long should brake discs last for ?
All my brake parts are as standard fitted from new.
I used to own an F, and had trouble in this area.
At guess what, 26000 miles as well - I noticed that one of my front brake discs was badly worn (driver's side). The passenger side disc was still like new. After some persuasion I had new pads and discs fitted free at the front. They originally said that wear wasn't covered by the extended warranty, but I argued that there was something more seriously wrong to cause uneven wear of the brake discs.
Brake discs should not wear out in 26000 miles of road use - as for being a legal wear level? I don't think so (I may be wrong though, only on pads I thought).
I would ask to inspect them myself, unless you trust the dealer.
I notice you live in St Albans - is this dealer Diamond Rover at Hatfield by any chance?
I took my F into Kwik Kit in Welwyn to check the wheel balancing and tracking. They also told me that my discs were worn to within 1mm of being illegal and that my pads were worn too. I've never heard of brake discs wearing out - not on a road car ?
My dealer is Diamond - how can I play with them to try and get them to pay for the discs ? I had it serviced 3500 miles ago and Diamond did not report any wear to the discs then ?
I dont mind having to replace brake pads but to have to replace discs is a joke ?
Well it sounds like you've done your homework - going to kwik-fit first.
Discs do wear out, but 26K is a bit quick - do you do track days every weekend or something?
I must admit it doesn't look good - if they have just worn out you'll have a tough job getting anything out of them. I used the uneven disc wear as my argument, but if there is nothing suspicious about your brakes I don't know what to suggest. Trouble is you have no proof that you drive the car with care, a complete nutter probably would wear out discs & pads in 26K.
You could speak to the service manager, was a 'Mr M Clarke' last year - he'll no doubt just apologise for not spotting the problem at the service.
I must point out that my brakes wear changed by Palmsville in Muswell Hill - a very efficient and friendly dealer.
Diamond are a bunch of apes (no disrespect to any intelligent primates surfing the BBS here). My car was in there for warranty problems twice, I eventually gave up after trying to get an alloy wheel replaced and went to Palmsville. I went past there teh other day - I do like the union jacks that have appeared on the outside of the dealer!..............still a bunch of apes though!
|Kwik Kit (Fit??) are quite renoun for trying to tell you that things need changing "well in advance" so that they get the business....|
I'm sure someone will have the numbers with them for disk tolerances, but they are usually "replace the disk if its thinner than x", and that a new disk should be y think. I seem to remember that y-x is only about 3mm, so relatively you've got a fair amount of wear left (1/3).
"Modern" pads do indeed wear the disks rather faster now there's no longer Asbestos in them. On other cars I've had to replace the disks ever 3 or 4 sets of pads.
On the pads front: MY garage recommended on Friday that I change my pads on the basis they were 80% worn (at 33k miles) and that they might not make the next service safely. This didn't come as a surprise, and after Sunday they well be 90% gone, so I bought some EBC Green/Kevlar replacements at Silverstone from B&G and will probably fit them tomorrow :-) There was no comment on disk wear, but now you mention it I'll find my micrometer and check them.... At least when they DO go they're a commodity item (same as a Metro!), so can be obtained reasonably cheaply from places like Allparts/Cafco/Partco (to name the 3 local motor factors)
I'm only too well aware of the very pro active nature of Kwit Fit and others. I rejected Kiwk Fits kind offer to fix my disks and pads.
However I'll check with them about the exact wear to the disc and if as with Simon the discs have worn unevenly then I will be in a better position to claim under warranty.
|Under normal road use you should get a hell of lot more miles out of your discs.|
However if you let the pads wear away then the backing plates will destroy your discs in just a few miles.
Check the surface of the discs if they are smooth then they ar OK from that point. To check their thickness is within limits will require the correct gauges.
Rover: brake pads are £55.00 + VAT per front set
Halford: brake pads are £26.00 including VAT per front set
Rover: brake discs are £63.00 + VAT each
Halfords: brake discs are £29.99 including VAT each
Any difference between the two brands ???
I 'assumed' that since my 24k service did not mention the imminent need for pads that they were OK.
I have a got any reasonable grounds to get Rover to pay for the discs because they did not inform me that the pads were low ?
Bit of a long shot I know.
|Dave at those prices I would recommended purchasing|
the pads from Brown & Gammons.
Like a few other people over the w/e at Silverstone, I picked up a set of EBC green stuff pads for the front and a set of EBC Kevlars for the back (Green Stuff will not be available foro the back of the 'F for another couple of weeks.
Total cost for both sets 68.98
Sorry can't remember the price for the fronts only (possibly 38.99)
|I'm thinking of getting some of the kevlar pads next time. If nothing else, to reduce all that dust, especially at the front.|
If anyone can give me some information. Some are using the green stuff pads at the front. As I have no ABS, I don't think I want to have too much extra stopping power so I'm not sure if I should use the black or green Kevlar pads on the front.
I still have a little room for improvement as I have some decent tyres.
...and another thing.....
When the car last had it's service (about 3 months ago @36K) Rover Loughborough replaced the rear pads for me at a cost of approx. £76 (pads), £25 (labour), £2 (brake cleaner) ALL +VAT.
Notice the decrepancy in pad prices over the Rover outlets !!!
At those prices I should have done the work myself....but I can be quite lazy sometimes :-)
|For an even better deal on the EBC pads, call JRT Autosport (01494 792211)|
In a previous thread, Rob Bell recommended them to me, so I gave them a call, and was happy to learn that they've got 25% off at the moment. Greenstuff fronts were £25 a pair, kevlar backs £13, and delivery £4.
Total cost: £42
|Dave (St. Albans)|
Ref: Rover v. Halfords price difference:
Have you tried asking for a price match – I personally have known this to work on several worthwhile occasions. I always shop around and, IMHO, a polite request sometimes/often works wonders. Always worth a try.
|I have experienced Kwik-Fits, it needs replacing attitude, a couple of times.|
The second time, I went back to my dealer and complained about the leaky rear piston seals. I was there when the dealer examined the brakes. The fluid which was present, was not brake fluid, but what appeared to be something like WD-40. Apparently this can also be sprayed onto shock absorbers to make them look like they are leaking as well!. (They do have there Bonus targets to achieve after all!!!!!)
Back to the MGF, the new thickness is 22mm, the service limit is 20mm. So if Kwik-Fit said they were only 1mm off being 'legal' then they are actually only half worn!
|You may also want to consider the EBC brake discs 100GBP per pair (inc VAT) for fronts. They also do rears for the same cost. I've just picked up EBC Greens for the front, Kevlars for the rears and a set of rear discs. The front discs were replaced at the last service and as pointed out are 63GBP each !!! My car had done 42K miles. If only I could have waited an ordered the EBC ones. All available from B+G. |
|Discs worn to within 1mm of being illegal. I wonder which Statute they have invented for that comment. Road Vehicle (Construction and Use) Regulations state that all parts of a braking system must be maintained in good and efficient working order and that certain braking efficiency levels met. |
Legislative braking requirements are to be blunt, crude and outdated. The minimum levels of performance are far too low and as such even with major wear in the system the brakes will achieve the minimum performance levels.
It is very difficult to be able to define a point where excess disc wear falls into the catagory of below a good and efficient working order, but certainly when a disc is within tolerance and the system is achieving above the mimimum required legal level performance, then the comment as made is scare mongering to the point of trying to frighten owners into having work done prematurely.
I would hazard an calculated guess that the ones who are closer to illegality are those who made the comments!!!
Disc wear is a variable, dependant on driving style, driving conditions, weather conditions and componant make up (if different from standard). Quantifying reasonable service life is very difficult. Some of our patrol fleet have pads every service (5000 miles) and a disc change every other service as well as pads. For the type of use this is deemed as acceptable.
|Thanks for all your comments. The info was really useful!|
I have my car booked in with my dealer to look at the brakes. I'll see what they say and go from there.
We have a mobile mechanic who does servicing and parts fitting at work. I'll probably buy the parts myself and get him to fit them. The main thing is to have brakes that work!
GAZ / Nigel - can I fit the EBC Green pads without fitting the EBC discs.
I remember reading somewhere that the EBC pads may cause increased wear to the standard Rover discs. ?
|"can I fit the EBC Green pads without fitting the EBC discs. "|
Yes - I'm doing it one night this week (when its not raining!). The pads are a direct replacement for (just) the standard pads.
EBC claim for their disks that they are known (aka better) quality castings than other "brands". Once again they are the same physical size as standard.
There are other routes you can take with the disks themselves, including drilled, grooved, or indeed bigger which all affect the braking performance and (supposedly!) characteristics
(if you feel really agreeved, you could highlight Quik Fit's practices to the local trading standards - I'm sure they'd be interested in such blatent mis-information)
|There is an awful lot of hype surrounding brake discs, supported by huge differences in prices. Let me tell you something from someone from within one of the very large brake manufacturers.|
Brake discs are actually manufacturered in a relatively small number of places. Batches of discs arrived by the pallet load, several thousand at a time. Some are scheduled for OE fit and are despatched in bulk. Others are split into various quantities and shipped to various factors/wholesalers who then often box these into individual brand boxes.
The end result is that the same source supplies very many outlets. This reflects in the price which can vary by up to 150%. If you knew that the discs coming from one supplier came from the same original manufacturer, as others where a different box adds such a premium, would you still want the fancy box?
The MGF front dics have been fitted to production cars since 1984 and as such there is nothing new about their production route. Buy a standard disc from a dealer and there is the usual premium in price. Buy the same disc from a motor factor (and do shop round) that comes in a AP Lockheed, Girling, Brembo or similar first line brake manufacturers box and you get exactly the same quality but with a price advantage. Look further and get discs boxed in other names and you still get the same quality for many, but this is no longer guarnateed.
Now a word of warning. Some suppliers of grooved, crossdrilled and other 'performance' discs use discs from other sources. This is not to say that they are any worse quality, BUT, having sourced discs at around £10 each and selling them on at 5 or 6 times the price shows a significant mark up even accounting for the grooving/crossdrilling.
Shop round for standard discs and choose carefully when considering performance altered discs.
|How easy is it to change pads yourself? and what tools do you need?|
|Quite straight forward and I did a full description not too long ago. It is in the archives, but I can't remember the thread title. |
|Matt - Search the Technical Archive for "brake pad" and "roger".|
Roger - Once I get back from NY, I plan on giving your brake pad instructions a shot. Plan on installing EBC Greenstuff on fronts and the plain EBC Kevlar ones for the rear (bought from B&G). Is the process for installing the rear pads different from the front? I understand the brakes/ calipers are different. Will try to snap some digital pics during the process, to supplement your instructions (just in case others are interested).
PS got the thread w/ your comments about the electric boot release instructions. thanks.
Yes there are differencies at the back as the handbrake mechanism in the rear caliper is a ratchet system. This means that you can't simply squeeze the piston back in.
To reset this you have to remove the caliper to gain access to the front face of the piston. Removal is two bolts and you do not have to disengage the handbrake, but do ensure it is fully released.
The face of piston has 4 slots which are designed for a special tool. These are very widely available from many outlets like Halfords. This tool grips the face via these slots and you wind the piston back in.
Now on newer cars you can use an alternative tool such as a pair of pliers to engage the slots, but where the car is older the pistons are likely to be very stiff and here the use of the special tool is advised.
Otherwise the job is reasonable.
|Just had the report on my brakes back from my dealer.... They report that my discs and pads do need replacing. Their cost for the work £316 + VAT. Guess who Diamond Rover !!|
I'm very annoyed because I had my F serviced 4000 miles ago. They found no wear to the discs and 60% wear to the pads. They did not reports the pad wear to me at the time of the service. They never provide a full service checksheet.
So in 4000 miles the discs and pad are worn out. I cant believe that. Have any I got any hope of action through the MG customer services or is this just "normal" wear and tear ???
|What did they report the thickness of the disks as? How about the thickness of the lining material on the pad?|
I'd talk it over with Diamond's managment and raise your displeasure of their lack of report during your service - you could get a pleasant surprise if you do - I complained about poor Vauxhall service and they did all sorts of things in the vain hope that they'd keep me as a customer/stop me complaining to Vauxhall. (they fitted the brake pads and disks I supplied for free - I was going to fit them when I needed them)
Are they doing a "quik-fit" on you and reporting a problem you don't have even now?
If indeed they are correct, I'm sure a local garage could fit suitable (or better, in the case of pads) replacements for considerably less than £316+VAT - it doesn't take THAT long to do! After all we are talking Metro GTi/Rover 800 technology that many places will be familiar with. See up in the thread for how much Rover charge for pads...
Brown and Gammins or JRT (Chesham) for pads - Disks about £30 each from Halfords, again cheaper from other factors I'm sure. So, that means there's ~ £230 to spend on labour - I'm sure you can manage to get them done quicker/cheaper than that and save yourself some money and get better brakes to boot.
|MGF brake parts getting cheaper...|
Just popped into a local car spares distributor near where I work. They quoted me these amazing prices for Lucas parts: Discs = £37 + VAT for the pair & Pads = £20 + VAT for the set.
I hope Lucas parts are reputable.
Next door to them is a tyre/exhaust/brake fitters who happen to get their parts from them. What a bonus!
They will fit discs and pads for £130 including VAT. parts and labour.
I love my F again !
Just popped to a local tyre/exhaust/brake fitting garage near work
|Glad to know we're saving you money!|
2 things: get the brake place to check the disks before you ask them to change them - they may not need doing! If noone else comes up with the minimum thickness this afternoon, I'll look it up when I get home and post again.
You still might want to consider Kevlar pads in place of "standard". So I am told (mine are still in the boxes at home pending fitting!): they work better (greater friction), work hotter (less "fade"), and (I hope) produce less of the dreaded black dust on the front alloys. Front pads are ~£26+VAT for EBC Green from JRT so are not much greater cost.
It's always good to save money. :)
Min. thickness as recommended by Rover/MG is 20mm.
Try Priests of Chesham for your next service.
Home of the F'ers Gallery and MG Dealer Guide :)
|as a "rule of thumb" a ventilated disc can be machined by removing a maximum of 5% of the original thicknes of the disc.|
|on this topical issue,|
My F is over at Premier Motors for the 48K service and their fiting the Green Stuffs I brought at Silverstone, they've also just reported that both front and rear disks are "corroded and lipped". Apparently there's signs the brakes have got quite hot at some point:o). They quoted around £500 to replace the disks. Needless to say I've declined this kind offer.
From what I've read and discussed with Premier it's going to be ok to continue to use the disks, but on balance they probably do need changing, I'm just not going to pay 500 quid to do so. Would I be best to get them changed?
R727 FOB, BRG VVC
I got my (front) brakes fitted by a local tyre/brake fitting company. They fitted Lucas disks and AP Lockheed pads. Not racing spec components but they will do the job well enough. I had the job done for £110 including parts, labour and VAT.
My disks were worn quite low and probably would have lasted for another 5000 miles or so. I just decided to get the pads and disks done together for piece of mind. I've bedded the pads in now and the brakes are better than they've ever been.
Dont pay Rover a fortune, shop around and get a good deal.
Here's the approx. prices I paid..
Lucas disks are £35 per set. + VAT
Pads £25 per set + VAT
|Re brake discs if you refer to my little story about the big container full of brake discs from one source that end up in different boxes...|
Well remember that Lucas is in fact Lucas Girling and like AP Lockheed they are first line brake manufacturers who supply OE parts to the production line. This is a perfect example of top quality parts at sensible prices.
This thread was discussed between 19/06/2000 and 01/07/2000
MG MGF Technical index
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