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MG MGF Technical - Brkae Upgrade - confirmations required

green stuffs,

I've combed the archives thoroughly, but would like a little confirmation on the brake upgrade options and practicalities, if you'd oblige. My discs are at minimum thickness; car is a 1995 1.8i in standard trim other than Techspeed suspension. Road use only, but I do have a fast drive to/from the station every day and need to be able to stop fast for other drivers and the odd albino deer.

1) Grooved discs versus plain. Someone said that the difference in stopping power was negligible. Reasons given for the grooves refer to deglazing and dust removal, plus possibly reducing gas-layer build-up, all of which it is said improve braking in particular circumstances but not necessarily outright stopping power. What is your view, on balance?

2) Anyone feel a difference between MS's grooved discs and the EBC ones? The MS ones have 12 grooves with two dimples between each; the EBC have 8 grooves with a three dimple pattern. The MS version is
C Golvala

well, as no one has replied yet i ll have a go :-/
*my personal thoughts/experience only! ;)*


1) The differance is negligible, but the main advantage is anti brake fade performance with constant use. Still a marked improvement over standard IMO


2)Havent tried Mikes discs, but arent they a larger diameter? I also believe Mike manufactures his own, so production costs will be a factor.


3)Not in my experience. Probably unlikey in road use as you arent going to be generating the extreme temperatures as circuit/sprint use.


4)The GS pads do give a consistant performance from cold, although the claimed 20% extra stopping power is debatable.


5)I have no experience of this


6)No, you need ABS. ;)

HTH. Davey.
Davey

Hi Chaz, since you're asking for opinions and experiences:

>>1) Grooved discs versus plain. Someone said that the difference in stopping power was negligible. Reasons given for the grooves refer to deglazing and dust removal, plus possibly reducing gas-layer build-up, all of which it is said improve braking in particular circumstances but not necessarily outright stopping power. What is your view, on balance?<<

On balance worth getting: also helps prevent pad 'glazing' in urban use - and for this alone, those grooves are worth it - ie for the more consistent braking

>>2) Anyone feel a difference between MS's grooved discs and the EBC ones? The MS ones have 12 grooves with two dimples between each; the EBC have 8 grooves with a three dimple pattern. The MS version is 90 more for all four.<<

Can't see that there'd be that much difference between the two. Not had experience with either, so not well positioned to answer really :o(

>>3) Talking cost, the EBC Green Stuff are cheaper than the Mintex 1144. Has anyone else had Rob Bell's experience of the GS pads breaking down after a while (without track days, preferably!)? <<

The GS pads worked fine for road use, and had the added advantage that they didn't generate so much dust. If clean wheels are your bag, then these are the pads to go for.

>> 4) Bearing in mind the short, fast run to the station, is it right that the GS pads or 1144s will brake well from cold? <<

Both have good performance from cold.

>> 5) Thinking of fitting SS brake hoses at same time (servo bracket already done). The archives say that this helps with brake feel but not extra stopping power - what is the difference (in practice)? <<

On balance, I am not convinced that my brakes felt all that much different after fitting the braided hoses: perhaps suggests that there is 'give' else where in the braking system. The servo braket much a much better buy.

>> 6) Finally, I find that even with the current standard brakes and good (GSD2) tyres I can skid on hard braking in certain conditions. Is this going to be much worse with this modest brake upgrade? Do I need lessons?! <<

New pads and discs should help - other than that then yes, perhaps some teaching at a skid pan centre is always worth while :o) Might also recommend Andy Walsh's High performance courses(1st Lotus).
Rob Bell

1) Grooved discs versus plain. Someone said that the difference in stopping power was negligible. Reasons given for the grooves refer to deglazing and dust removal, plus possibly reducing gas-layer build-up, all of which it is said improve braking in particular circumstances but not necessarily outright stopping power. What is your view, on balance?

> I had EBC Turbo Grooved front discs and Green Stuff pads all round (replaced by Red Stuff at the front). Overall? Not very impressed. If it wasn't for the 'whirring' sound under braking i wouldn't have known they were fitted. <

2) Anyone feel a difference between MS's grooved discs and the EBC ones? The MS ones have 12 grooves with two dimples between each; the EBC have 8 grooves with a three dimple pattern. The MS version is 90 more for all four.

> I've had both (currently got MS groved discs on the rear). No real difference IMO. AFAIC the groves make the discs more consistent, they don't necessarily help with overall braking performance. <

3) Talking cost, the EBC Green Stuff are cheaper than the Mintex 1144. Has anyone else had Rob Bell's experience of the GS pads breaking down after a while (without track days, preferably!)?

> Greenstuff is great for keeping wheels clean, i don't think i'd recommend them for anything else. I have had 2 sets of Greenstuff break up, the first cracked through the middle following a Treffen and the second had a chunk missing, again following a Treffen. Both Treffens included a couple of trips round the Nurburgring, and in the first instance this is what i put it down to. In the second instance i noticed a reduction in brake performance before i got the Nurburgring and was debating whether i should go out at all. <

4) Bearing in mind the short, fast run to the station, is it right that the GS pads or 1144s will brake well from cold?

> I now have Mintex 1155 on the rear - Tony the Tiger mate, Tony the Tiger. :-) <

5) Thinking of fitting SS brake hoses at same time (servo bracket already done). The archives say that this helps with brake feel but not extra stopping power - what is the difference (in practice)?

> My SS hoses were fitted with my 4 pot calipers so i can't comment on this one. <

6) Finally, I find that even with the current standard brakes and good (GSD2) tyres I can skid on hard braking in certain conditions. Is this going to be much worse with this modest brake upgrade? Do I need lessons?!

> You can skid any car if you try hard enough. Upgrading the brakes will stop the car more positively, pad material is important as some pads can be a bit 'grabby' and this will make skidding more likely. Basically, the brakes will only work as well as the grip afforded by the tyres, if you are in a situation of reduced grip then skidding is more likely.

My current brake spec is MS 4 Pot calipers and 280mm discs front, MS drilled and groved discs rear - braided hoses and Mintex 1155 pads all round + brake servo bracket. I found this combination to be very progressive and this is exactly IMO what is required from good brakes. Furthermore they are very predictable in all conditions. However, i do have 205mm width tyres all round, so technically i have slightly more grip from the front (which is where the majority of the braking force is). I came from EBC Turbo Grooved discs all round, Green stuff rear and Red stuff front, believe the packaging, in my experience Red stuff are not for road use - i found it difficult to get any decent braking performance out of them, even on the Nurburgring when they were hot. Greenstuff were great for cleanliness, but ultimately i found them dissapointing and susceptible to crumbling. <

SF
Scarlet Fever

Gentlemen, thank you for your illuminating comments (as always). I think that the consensus is that the grooved discs themselves do not alter the braking power, but do aid consistency under adverse conditions. Doesn't sound as though the MS grooves (on standard size 240mm discs) are any different from the EBC versions. Bigger discs equal better leverage and therefore better stopping power, but may not be within my budget.

Pad choice seems to be the key to stopping faster and more progressively (ref skids) with standard size discs. I knew that Rob and Scarlet had both had broken EBC Greens, but wonder how likely I am to duplicate this given no track use. May be I start with EBC and next change of pads go Mintex.

Choices, choices; I think I'll go break the piggy bank and count my pennies! PS Andy, what or who is Tony the Tiger?

Cheers

Chaz
C Golvala

Chaz,

The rotors on my 1.8i are standard rover, and in fact are completely shot (origional set 30k miles). They are being replaced week after next. However as I could not get the bl**dy old ones off I fitted EBC greenstuff pads to the front as stop gap measure. The pads did take a while to bed in 300-500 miles, but it does say that in the fitting instructions.

The greenstuff pads were a definite improvement over the old ones.

To date the car has only been used on the road no track days, yet :-)

My current thinking is to go for the EBC Turbo grooved disks front and back. This is based on cost rather than all out performance, they are only 100 a pair (inc VAT) from B&G.

I have not decided what to do about pads yet, this might be dependant on what the existing pads look like.

I have fitted the brake servo support bracket and was very pleased. It felt like more of by braking effort was getting to the wheels. It took 1-2 hours to fit and I'm slow at this stuff.

Regards

Steve
Steve

Kelloggs Frosties

Tony the Tiger = They're Grrreeeaaaaatttt!!! LOL :-)

SF
Scarlet Fever

In case anyone is curious, here's some comparative cost info. MS 280mm discs front and EBC rear plus Mintex 1144s all round are 480. EBC discs and GS pads all round from Brown & Gammons are 270. Mix and match with EBC discs and 1144s for 350.

The EBC website is quite informative, so too the AP Racing one and an American one on SP rotors. All suggest that cross drilled discs are morelikely to crack than plain, the EBC site noting that only if the vanes inside the disc are curved do you need through-drilled holes to help venting. Although I am sure MS' 280mm discs are superbly made, this is one more reason not to upgrade that far.

Steve, nice to hear a vote for improved performance with GS pads on standard rotors. The EBC website is adamant that Greens should not be used on track days. Like you, I expect this will take me a long time to do, but I hope that advice from the archive, Rob's site and Tony's Green Bullet site (very informative and illustrated rear disc and pad change) will enable me to do the job.

...getting ready for skinned knuckles and bruised thumbs...

Cheers

Chaz
C Golvala

its all very confusing isnt it?

Neil

No complaints about the Greenstuff pads from here.

Changed the pads years ago and they are still performing well, although no track days are involved (living in Belgium, great tracks but no track days).

BTW, great thread as I will be changing to 280mm soon. :o) :o) :o) :o)
Erik

Also note, after fitting the grooved discs and new pads of the distinctive "characteristic" purring sound when your driving along. It generally quietens down as they bed in, but is damn annoying for some time! Not too bad this time of year windows up and all, but roof/windows down, can be tedious.Perfectly normal though.
Davey

Given that the EBC Turbo grooved disks are 200 for a full 4 disk set (inc VAT) from B&G, how much is a set of Rover (MG) Sport and Racing discs?
Steve

Mintex recommend 1144 as an upgrade replacement pad, so these with standard disc's will give you much better braking without spending a fortune.

I had GS on standard disc's and found them inconsistant, possibly glazing up as there were no grooves. The only good point was the lack of dust.

I am currently using, MS280 on the front with 1155 and standard rears with 1144, servo bracket & SS hoses. This works well all the time, cold or on a track day.

Alastair


Alastair McLeod

This thread was discussed between 24/11/2003 and 28/11/2003

MG MGF Technical index

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