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MG MGF Technical - Head Gasket
|Can someone tell me how much a new headgasket will cost?|
I have just checked the oil and it seems a little bit creamy and the water level has dropped.
|I got mine done for £465. This included new timing belts which it made sense replacing as the head was coming off anyway and the car is an April 96 N.|
See the archive for other owners similiar psotings.
Mike Satur quotes less than this I think.
What I would say is get sorted soon or you run the risk of having to replace the engine which I think is around £2500.
I wonder if the HGF rate will increase this year as many more F's mature past their third birthday ?
|£465 sounds like a bragain! I'm collecting mine this evening, its costing about £1000 (£1333 with 60k service). There goes my summer holiday, now I know why Mx5 owners laugh at us so much.|
|£465 dosen't sound to bad in this day and age but £1300? why so much?,|
When I check the oil cap (one on the engine) there is no cream, It is just on the end of the dipstick is this normal?.
Ps my MG has only done 28k
|It seems that something had been warped and had to be sent away to a specialist to be re-ground or something. Basically, it overheated because of the HGF, better to recognise it quick and get it fixed than wait until your entire dipstick is covered in yoghurt..|
Its a good idea to look for a layer of oil in your coolant, like a puddle on the road giving a kind of rainbow effect..
Many thanks just got a price back from Beach hill they have quoted 280 + vat and parts.
I hope to get it booked in this week as I belive I might have caught the HGF just in time, many thanks for the information.
I sadly follow this thread.
Recommendation for Dirkies Hall of shame. )HGF 'memorial'.
Did you all think on leaking air intake manifold sealings ?
This only if you own the MPI.
I had my head skimmed as part of the repair and it cost £25 plus VAT.
cost breakdown (includes new timing chains)
parts 184 (-36 discount) 148
labour 337.5 (-115 discount) 222
sub contractor head skim 24
|Can I ask some of the unfortunate MGF owners out there who have had head gasket problems a few questions.|
Did you let the coolant dry out at any period?
Do you high rev the engine when cold?
Are you continuously high revving the engine?
Do you know if the VVC Engines are more reliable than the 1.8i?
What was the mileage on your MGF when the unfortunate happened?
What percentage of cars have had this problem ?
I have never heard any probs with the LOTUS ELISE engine. Have you ?
I have had my MGF VVC BRG for a year without any probs. Fingers crossed. I just wondered if the probs were due to neglect.
|>>I have never heard any probs with the LOTUS ELISE engine. Have you ?<<|
A few, but nowhere near as many as on the 'F'. There was a single batch of Elises that suffered head gasket problems, can't remember what the period was.
There's a web site with a list of HGF statistics set up by Dieter. I'm not sure of the web address, but it's in one of the other threads.
>> Did you let the coolant dry out at any period? <<
>> Do you high rev the engine when cold? <<
I did when the HG went.
>> Are you continuously high revving the engine? <<
Sometimes. But then it is a sports car.
>> Do you know if the VVC Engines are more reliable than the 1.8i? <<
Don't know, best to check out Dieters site.
>> What was the mileage on your MGF when the unfortunate happened? <<
>> What percentage of cars have had this problem ? <<
It seems that it's quite a high proportion, but not according to Rover.
> There's a web site with a list of HGF statistics set up by Dieter. I'm not sure of the web address.
I'm sorry, the former statistic webside was Dirkies job and it was changed while a 'flame thread' to a clean report by Dirkie.
I cached only a load of messages from the archiv and posted them on a single webside.
And this one is IMO not for common use (not permitted by the webmaster). It contents my access-account to the archiv (my failure)
So please join the archive as member and search for the keywords HGF and 1999. You'll find enough messages.
Sorry for this confusion (Stefan, that error doesn't matter IMO)
Things that I can provide are:
and here is Dirks CGF List:
and another german side from Tom S.
hope this helps.
Many thanks for your help I have just got my MG back with a nice bill of £474, the gasket was only just starting to leak and was very slight, My MG has only 30K miles on the clock and I have never high reved it or let the water run low so have no reason why it was starting to go.
I will be sending a nasty letter to Rover ASAP
Once again thanks for all your help
ps I took the car to Faraday in the end they fixed a lose alt belt and a small oil leak on the cam gasket all in the price of the head gasket faliure
Glad to see that your MGF is now fixed. As a matter of interest have you had yours since new.
Alais no I brought the car second hand from a rover dealer at the time it had only had 21k two years ago, as you can see I have only a do around 4.5k miles a year in the MG.
|Hey Pealy & Adam, can I get your details (type, mods, age, mileage) so I can enter your data in the Head Gasket Memorial?|
I've seen an entry for my car before, but I can't see it anymore. I had a HGF last weekend ...
registered Approx March 1996
air filter No
Cat bypass No
Engine dead No
# HG failures 1
Mileage (1st) 29910
Age (1st) 4 years
Here are my details
registered Approx November 1996 (N610 YRB)
Air Filter No
Cat bypass No
Engine dead No
# HG failures 1
Mileage (1st) 30k
Age (1st) 4 years
|I purchased my P reg 22K vvc mgf in the summer, everything fine until Xmas when I encounted starting problems in the morning,had dealer look at the car and had ignition pack/leads replaced under warranty, I was also concerned at the large amount of oil the car had used (5 ltrs) so asked the engine was checked for leaks, this was put down to head gasket and pitting on the head surface..head was skimmed and i was a happy bunny when the car was returned 4 days ago... upon my return home from work tonight..temp gauge was showing max!! checked engine found cream in the filler cap..cars back at the dealer in the morning...so i'm told by the rover dealer this was the second time the head was skimmed...has anybody suffered the same problems? Where your problems finally resolved?|
Many thanks...a very sad MGF owner...
Car has a 57i kit fitted
and SP Exhaust.
|Hi Steve, can I get your details aswell, you're HGF #111... Jesus!|
and for the Q's of Kenny:
Did you let the coolant dry out at any period?
Do you high rev the engine when cold?
MAX 3000 when coolant gauge is not in middle
MAX 4000 when oil gauge is not at 90°
Are you continuously high revving the engine?
NO, 6000rpm sometimes for 10 minutes in 5th, but I let the car settle a bit on the highway by putting it in neutral for 30s or what every 15 minutes, just to unstress a bit. Some rev variation is also recommended, but let's say I always drive on the highway between 4000 & 4500rpm
Do you know if the VVC Engines are more reliable than the 1.8i?
don't think so, many more MPi's were sold and yet the difference with VVC in the H.O.S. is trivial, so I guess VVC is more fragile.
What was the mileage on your MGF when the unfortunate happened?
35K, 51K, 70K (last one killed VVC engine)
What percentage of cars have had this problem ?
haha, the $1B question, call Rover!
They'll tell you it's <.3% or so (grin)
In Luxembourg they sold about 70 Fs from what I remember, and me included they had already 5 or 6 HGF, but people here in Luxembourg cover, according to my dealer, less than 10.000 miles/year (summer/leisure car), so I guess they can go on a long time like this without hitches.
Fact that Rover repairs HGF for unmodified cars even 1yr outside warranty without much comments does indicate something IMHO
|It would be interesting to see if other cars fitted with the "K" seriers engine suffered the same problem. e.g Lotus, Rovers, Kit cars etc. If not it could be the Type of coolant, Lack of air to the engine bay, the type of oil used, coolant hoses (size, length) There seems to be a bid distance between the engine and the rad. This make make things worse. Oil, yes believe it or not the type of oil does make a difference. I must admit I was surprised that Rover uses a 10/40 mix when typically 5/30 10/30 is more common. Also the Oil spec is very important. The fix may be additional fans in the engine bay. Better spec oil, better quality Anti freeze, Bigger radiator, Bigger coolant pipes to increase the flow to the rad. Improved water pump. All worth looking at, if you are technically minded, as the is a fix out there. |
Has anyone tried wetter water and does it really work??
I have in the past run quite a few searches on the web and found next to nothing on Rover K Series HGFs (one in an old front-engine installation, if I remember correctly). Perhaps there isn't the forum to provide such info, unlike the very active MGF BBS.
Most of the differences in the rear-engine installation have been discussed before, especially the length of the hoses and the coolant quantity. Remember though that when cold, with the thermostat closed, the coolant flow through the bypass hase is exactly the same as in a front-engine installation. To assist this flow I make sure that the heater valve is open when starting from cold so that the heater circuit relieves some of the pressure. Although for most of us overheating is not a problem, so a larger radiator would not help, I don't know what effect the extended hoses have on coolant pressure build-up in the head.
I'm sure that most, if not all of the BBS contributors, use high-quality oil and coolant, as I believe do Rover dealers. Many of us use Mobil 1 synthetic oil, which has a specification far in advance of petroleum oils (or am I believing too many adverts?). Of course it's 0W-40, but we don't have any choice in that.
Water wetter has also been discussed before, with mixed opinions. I like the idea, but am generally not in favour of additives, so I have as yet to take the plunge.
The salient point is that nobody has yet identified what in the F is the cause of the additional risk of HGFs: that is if you accept that there is an additional risk in the first place!
|>you're HGF #111... Jesus!|
Wow!!!! You mean that you know of 111 head gasket failures out of 60,000+ cars out there!!!!
That's an astounding 0.185% - that's a terrible failure rate. Time to start running around like headless chickens.....DON'T PANIC, DON'T PANIC!!!!!!
|>>>you're HGF #111... Jesus!|
Wow!!!! You mean that you know of 111 head gasket failures out of 60,000+ cars out there!!!!
That's an astounding 0.185% ...<<
Everybody knows that every F owner around the world contributes to this BBS and that every HGF has been reported here ... stupid
That's number 111 ouf of X BBSers + Y people known by BBSers.
In any case, the sample is smaller than 1000 or 2000 F's.
Do the calculation yourself.
But you'll always argue the F is the worst 2-seater re. handling and the most reliable car of the world. I'm not saying I think exactly the opposite, before you flame me ...
Dirk's job is useful to kick some MG dealers' ass who "has been trained" to say they've never heard of HGF's (the quotes around the verb to prevent you from asking "where is that training center ?")
|Not wanting to suggest that some (a minority?) dealers don't know what they're doing.....|
Is it possible that some cars develop a problem (expansion cap etc) and this causes problems which the dealer can only identify by taking the head off? A dealer is unlikely to admit to unwarranted head removal and will therefore install a new HG and claim that the old one blew....
If this doesn't solve the problem, I'd expect to see the same problem arise again and again until they fix it.
Or am I just an old cynic....
|Big shout to "Fab Fabrice" for kicking Casey's TVR butt for having a very silly logic.|
Fab read my mind, so I don't have to repeat it here :)
I wish I knew all 60.000+ MGF owners, then I'd probably have to hire some extra webspace to get the html data onto it (or perhaps install an IIS 4.0 database server to host the MGF Hall Of Shame database!)
All I do know is that dealers tend to be more flexible when a depressed MGF owner with HGF shoves a print-out of the Hall Of Shame under the dealer's nose when the latter is reluctant to discuss warranty issues. At least I know of one case where the HOS did save a poor F'er quite some £££.
Cool, not? ;)
|OK Casey, where can I find the TVR BBS ?|
We all know (from the past with its flaming threads) that we can not put a percentage on the total number of HG failing.
I suggest that we all keep cool (instead of going into red, like our F's <grin>) and that we keep on searching for a possible cause. We (Dirk and others) have some valuable data, and off course it should be stupid to say that every entry is 100% reliable (to use a sensitive term). But hey, could we do something with those 111 entries?
|>OK Casey, where can I find the TVR BBS ?|
www.egroups.com - sorry, but TVRs don't suffer head gasket failures :-)
|I had a TVR S3 for 2 years and it was way way the most unreliable car i've ever had. It was only 2 years old when i bought it, and to be fair the HG never went...but just about everything else did...*grin*.|
I was always having to work on it myself and as I live near the factory i ended up going there for major work ...i think i was like Peter Wheeler's adopted son by the time i sold it i knew them all so well!
Having said that it was a great car....or else i wouldn't have kept it as long as i did ....but personally i rate the F a much more satisfying car 98% of the time....and a damm site more reliable.
Perhaps if you had kept your MGF for a bit longer you would have been one of the 0.185%.
|It does seem alarming that the trend for head gaskets to blow is around the 24k mark (2 year service - is this the first time the cooling system is drained and refilled?). Will you have to replace the HG again 24k ish miles later? Do lotus Elise have this same problem - same engine and all that? K series Rover 200 / 400 / 600?|
|There was a batch of Elises that seemed to have the problem, but that seems to have been fixed (not sure what changed though).|
Other K series based cars don't seem to have the problem at all.
Seems to me to point to a cooling system problem (if there is one).
I saw some wrang figures...
Not 60000 + but 'only' 56000 where built until the end of 99.
That corrects the 0.185 percent dramaticly , eyhh.
I remember on that (nice?) discussions last year and the consumption of Terry Cox
|Maybe when the system is drained and then refilled, if they don't bleed the system properly. An air lock I imagine will cause a hot spot. With the MGF engine block being quite thin and quite a hot runner that might be all it needs - mmmmmmmm|
It would be quite interesting to see if some garages have have more or less problems than others.
|my dealer told me that in principle for perfect bleeding of an F you need to hang the car on the ceiling, nose up, and let it bleed!|
|Bob may well be close to one of the prime causes.|
I was lucky to survive without an HGF, but I spotted the temperature gauge fluctuating disturbingly a day after my 24k service and was towed back to the garage to get it bled properly.
Another 8k miles on and I still haven't seen any knock-on effects.
|Every time HGs are raised as a thread they cause lots of comment. The last one on bleeding is interesting. The F has a long coolant circuit with the rad being in the front and the engine aft and I imagine that it's a bit of a bugger to bleed. Everytime the system is drained it's another opportunity to get it wrong. With all the nooks and crannies (and with surface tension holding bubbles)air can be trapped easily. Also if the heater is not turned on when bleeding then the air gets trapped here. It is probably prudent, after coolant drain, to bleed it best you can, give it a bit of a run, then bleed it again and even repeat this. Can you imagine a dealer doing this on a fixed time for repairs?|
One last point, the "air" may actually turn out to be combustion gasses due to low liner stand height or damage/corosion to the head by the fire rings. It can happen that the gasses blow by the liner only under certain running conditions and may build up in the system until it is enough to cause a problem.(I hope this doesn't dismay you Peter)
As usual nothing is simple and there is not a panacea to this problem.
PS re the Elise, what sort of cooling system is on this (front or back rad) and does it have/need an engine bay cooling fan a la F?
I am always a little dismayed (or with background worries anyway) about these things - and yes you have reinforced them. My point was really about the uncanny correlation of breakdowns and services.
I have just remembered (how could I forget) that directly after the 12k service two of the ABS sensors needed replacing for no easily explicable reason. Luckily Rover paid for this.
There is no doubt that preventative maintenance is often anything but!
|I found this - after my first service when the fluids were replaced, the expansion bottle was almost empty after about one month. So I topped it up and nothing since. Worthwhile following the 'check everything once a week' advice!|
I would conject that the ABS sensors were damaged when the wheels (which have a tendancy to stick to the hubs) were removed with 'inappropriate force'. (hammer)
|Any one contemplating bleeding the cooling system,(this might have been posted previously) there are four points to bleed from ,the inlet manifold ,which has a 'jiggle'valve, the metal return pipe to the nearside of the engine, the heater box nipple ,situated under the bonnet behind the plastic shroud, and top of the radiator.For info only , Mike.|
|Regarding Kenny's questions:|
>>Did you let the coolant dry out at any period?
No, the coolant level has never altered.
>>Do you high rev the engine when cold?
No- although I am a good deal more cautious since becomming aware of the HGF issue. Now keep rpm below 3,000 until oil temp is over 90C.
>>Are you continuously high revving the engine?
Oh yes- my car gets used very hard where ever and when ever I can. There is a 50 mile stretch over Salisbury Plain where the revs never fall below 5000rpm.... <g>
>>Do you know if the VVC Engines are more reliable than the 1.8i?
Look at Dirk's statistics- VVC engines seem to be more commonly affected then the MPi engined cars.
>>What was the mileage on your MGF when the unfortunate happened?
Current mileage is 42,000 miles, and no HGF... yet. When reading these HGF threads one starts to worry is a failure is inevitable... a 'when' rather than 'if'.
>>What percentage of cars have had this problem ?
Unknown. Dirk's data collection has severe reporting bias so cannot be used to generalise to the MGF population as a whole. However it is useful to keep details on the chort as a whole to try and understand the problem of HOW HGF occurs, and what potential remedies there might be.
An observation that hasn't been aired in this particular thread is the surprisingly high incidence of 'repeat failures'. Are these failures related to the initial primary cause, or a sequelae of the first HGF?
I would conclude that the MGF is susceptable to HGF- more so than similarly engined vehicles, yet is still capable of extremely reliable service and hard use. The true size of the problem remains unknown.
(PS- At Silverstone last year I was at the MGCC stand. During the time I was there three people came up declaring problems with their cars: steam being released from the engine bay and so on. I do not know if these were HGFs, but if they were... Oo-er! Worrysome isn't it?) :o(
|I have just waved the AA man good bye after he rescued my wife from the A470. On her way home, there was a huge amount of white smoke/steam coming from the back of the car - described by a passer by as a "sh*tload of smoke from every orifice" (us Welsh are so poetic).|
Anyway, I take this to mean that the head gasket has failed. I've checked the coolant bottle and that is completely empty but the oil seems very clean?! It's the usual failure story of, "has been using a bit more oil recently" and "the car has done around 22k miles".
Obviously, I'll be towing it to the garage over the weekend, for them to fix it. What should I be aware of/ ask for?
The only good news I have is that it happened 14 days before the warranty ran out - there is a God and she can be kind sometimes!
My wife would like to thank all of those MGFer's who waved and beeped their horn at her as she spent an hour and a half waiting for the "very nice man" from the AA to turn up. So much for treating the rescue of women on their own as a priority.
|Well it's just happened to me today I think ... loadsa steam puffing out of everywhere. Car has been left near Roehampton College about 15mins from home. However I have noticed that if I fill the coolant bottle there is a nice trickle of water below the car. I'm hoping its not the HG but a hose/pipe leak ... what a nitemare ...|
sorry about your problems, but don't panic.
You are only two more points in Dirkies list.
Nothing else will happen because that all is only virtual.
PS. this should sound cynical ... :(
>>Wow!!!! You mean that you know of 111 head gasket failures out of 60,000+ cars out there!!!!
That's an astounding 0.185% - that's a terrible failure rate. Time to start running around like headless chickens.....DON'T PANIC, DON'T PANIC!!!!!!<<
Sorry to say Casey, but you got a really bizarre way of reasoning. Maths are being taught at a young age. Industry norms at some elder age ;-) And by the way, whatever the percentage, each head gasket failure is a failure too much. I don't give a damn about percentages when I am standing at the side of the road with a killed HG, because at that moment the failure ratio has happened *100%* to me. That experience is NOT funny. What's 0.0000000000000001% if "fate" exactly picks you out for being Mr.of Mrs. 0.0000000000000001%
So avoid laughing at other people: as Horatius wrote in his Satirae: "Quid rides ? Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur" ("Why do you laugh ? You only need to change the name and the story goes about you").
Luc (with 1996 MGF to which 1 HGF happened once at least for the full 100%)
|>Wow!!!! You mean that you know of 111 head gasket failures out of 60,000+ cars out there!!!!|
It's that logic error again, how can you use the argument that the BBS is not representative because only a small number F owners use it and on the other hand say that because we only know of 111 HGFs that only 111 HGFs have happened to the MGF. We are back to fine line between statistics and rubbish.
The HGF is a known problem on the F (and other cars) and can not be ignored, it can be said that the implementation of the 1.8 K series has a tendency to blow head gaskets. This statement in no way suggests that all, or even most MGFs suffer from this problem, but it can be assumed from the information we receive on this BBS that a significant percentage of MGFs suffer or have suffered from this problem at some time.
For the statistics to be accurate you would need to estimate how many MGF owners use the BBS and then compare this figure with the number of HGFs reported by Owners on this BBS. This would give the correct sample statistics.
To compare HGFs reported on this BBS with all MGFs made is ridiculous and misleading, I see a bright future career in politics here :-).
Anyway, it's been over 18 months since my HGF and all is OK (touch wood). I think that if you look at Dirk's Hall of Shame, you also notice that on most of the MPI models it only occurs once and seems to be cured after the HG is replaced. A certain percentage of modern alloy engines will have this problem whatever the make but this is not much consolation if it has just happened to you.
Now to read the rest of the thread, I'm still catching up here from the new year.
>Sorry to say Casey, but you got a really bizarre way
>It's that logic error again,
Amazing how some people can completely miss the irony in a statement like that :-)
My comment was no less meaningless or bizzare than the one I quoted - they were both based on exactly the same data and they were both completely invalid.
|Well its true another HGF. Sometimes I really hate this car ........|
>Sometimes I really hate this car ........
Look forwards and think positive :)
Let it fix, think about what you can improve for yourself in driving style or maintenance or whatelse.
Write your experiance to the BBS. :) and fun will come back.
just one more to add from Markus, Germany.
mileage 30k km.
|Ok, Markus O, Gaz, Dafydd & email@example.com, can you send me your details for HOS data? Any mods, age, mileage.|
strange, a (British btw) colleague here asked me how many F's blew up this week, and I replied "strange, only one", but after getting on this BBS I can 'assure' him there are FIVE for this week... (JESUS!)
The more people pass the 20/25K miles mark, the bigger the HOS will become, I guarantee you. And the more people who have to pay £500 to repair this Rover blunder, the more this subject will become 'hotter' to discuss...
Come on Casey & Patrick, flame me, of course I'm wrong and of course the HGF is an exceptional event for any MGF!!! <g>
just had a long mobile call with mtravin@xxx
data for the HOS:
Name Markus He.
Mileage 30 k km
first reg. 06/96
Mods :chrome ashtray ;-)
He purchased this car last year with 26k km. So recently no information about the historie.
I asked him for our two common failures:
Coolant cap or intake manifold gasket:
He found the 'coolant cap' as damadged as indicated on my webside, .... with side shifted inner valve !!!
The intake gasket is unchanged.
|Very interested to read the comments above re HGF so soon after 24k service. This is exactly what happened to me.|
One of the mechanics where I work used to work at an MG dealership. He reckons there is a green MGF driving around Ilkeston (Notts/Derby)that has had 7 (yes I do mean 7)HGF.
|Alistair, how old is that car?|
If a HG goes twice then maybe the whole engine needs replacing.... 7 times is ridiculous!
Not sure, i'll ask the chap tommorow and get back on that.I do agree it is ridiculous. This chap also said that Rover would NEVER admit to there being a problem even though they are well aware that there is one. He reckons that if you stick them out they will pay for the work every time as they don't want anyone kicking up a big fuss about it.
|>Very interested to read the comments above re HGF so soon after 24k service|
we discussed that term last year several times. I think Rog is already tired of repeating already written.
It's not approved that in 'most cases' a lack of bleeding results in the occured HGF. It is one of several reasons, indeed, but no reason to forget the others.
Coolant cap and MPI air intake manifold gasket are IMO the only stated by MG for overheatings.
For the rest of 5 or more possible reasons see Terry Cox consumption :)
|Casey, irony? from you? goodness gracious me.... :-)|
I have had no HGFs today (so far) :-).
I'm afraid that HGFs are something that occurs quite often with modern small (reletively powerful) 16 valve alloy engines, it happend all the time with early 16 valve engines.
The Dolomite Sprint was one of the early ones back in the 70s and early 80s, these motors had a really big problem with head gaskests and warped heads. But this problem was not only limited to these engines.
My HGF occurences are as follows
1979 - Vauhall Viva HB 1100 (1971) Blown gasket at 80MPH (down hill :-). Car was already a wreck so not serious. This car cost me 100 quid to buy.
1987 - Rover 2000 SC (1973), also bent inlet valve at the same time. Again car was already knackered before so not a problem. This car cost me 200 quid to buy.
1988 - Vauxhall Cavalier 1.8CD (1984), blown HG two days after service for no apparent reason. No previous problems in this area.
1998 - MGF 1.8i (1997), car was less than a year old.
I think on the whole larger engines (like in a TVR) are much harder to blow than smaller engines. You can give most large engines (over 3000 cc) a lot more punishment than a smaller engine as they are usually built to handle more load and quite often are lower reving.
I would not call any of the above insignificant, these things happen, they just should not happen so often on such new cars, even an MG dealer would agree that an HGF should not normally happen in the first two or three years of a cars life.
The MGF does have a known tendency to blow head gaskets and no denial will change that fact, if they have a greater rate of HGFs than other makes, we can only guess. From the information we receive it would appear that the MGF suffers from problem more than many of it's competiters.
There is clearly a greater rate of HGFs than 0.1... (whatever it was) but we do not really have the information to say one way or the other. The MGF is one of the more reliable cars I have owned, but then again it is the only new car I have ever owned.
In two and a half years the car has let me down three times (I define letting me down as not being able to drive it). For a new car I think this is too many, but compared with other makes (friends info) this is not unknown by any means.
If your car is up to two or three years old, I think many dealers will fix the problem for you and charge it to Rover.
|Saturdays Daily Telegraph Motoring Section has a letter from someone with an Aug 97 Rover 416. It had a Head Gasket replaced at 36,000 miles. Is this a known problem with K series engines they ask?|
Honest John replies
"The K series are modular engines with 10 particularly long stretch bolts from the top of the head, through the block, to the crank case. Sometimes these can give a little more than they are designed to. The other problem is with cracks developing in the cylinder head itself. However, though all sizes of K series can be affected, the failure rate is comparitively low and most units cover well over 100,000 miles."
|>and most units cover well over 100,000 miles|
Thats what I hope to get and nothing more :)
If it fails then, I'll be a little sad, but its OK IMO for such a high level engine.
|Just to pick up one small point in Tony's last concerning the larger engines being less prone to HGF.|
I am not so sure bearing in mind the quite common rate of gasket failures that I have seen with Rover V8 engines over a continuous period of over 20 years. It's not so much the size of the engine but the manner in which the engine is used that has the main influence. The usual redeeming fact here is that the larger engine almost always gives more power and so it becomes practically impossible to use this power because of road and traffic restrictions.
Take an extreme comparison, a 500cc Fiat and a 6.7 litre Rolls. Drive them both at 70 mph and tell me which one is working harder?
The Rover SD1's and Range Rovers that I mainly refer to here, suffer a much higher rate of failure compared to privately owned similar models for the simple reason that the 'nuts' were screwed off ours, 24 hours a day, 5 days a week. (The other two days were for repair!)
|And following on from Roger.....|
My personal view is that it is quite likely that the MGF suffers a higher than average rate of failure for a very simple reason....enthusiastic drivers thrash the crap out of the engine to get the car to go fast.
Dirk is certainly guilty of this, I've followed him and the way he drives is almost certainly a major factor in any engine failures....the lightning hitting the same place repeatedly is further circumstansial evidence.
The F is underpowered to be a 'fast car', so to drive it quickly requires maintaining high revs and changing gear frequently to account for road condition changes. And what this does is stress the engine constantly to its maximum performance level. Add on a few 'harmless' modifications and you start pushing it outside its performance envelope, and out of its reliability envelope. And driving fast *and* badly makes the problem far worse.
Why would there be an unusually high occurence of failures on this BBS, as opposed to the rest of the MGF owners? Perhaps those on here are more likely to be 'enthusiasts' - more likely to enjoy driving their cars fast and to the limits of their performance? Someone who uses their F for supermarket runs and the occasional weekend in the countryside is not likely to be stressing their engine.
Why don't TVRs suffer HGF? Because (as Roger said) they have more than enough torque to lose traction on the road long before they get to their performance limits. I know very few people who could keep a TVR running at 6000revs consistently (70mph in second, 130mph in third). So TVR drivers (even the very enthusiastic) don't stress their engines.
Of course instead of this perfectly reaonable explanation, it could all be a Rover conspiracy to cover up the design faults on the MGF. Or perhaps an Alien world domination plan to demoralise the human population by causing their engines to fail. Or perhaps.....
I've got a nice one.... it scared me to death:
Saturday, the weather was nice and we needed to be somewhere in time, so we chose to keep the hood up, but to open the rear window. This gives an icredible nice sound of the K&N, Milltek in the interior without all the cold air. So we are on the highway and the sound is really great 'till one moment..... no more noice.... All temperature-gauges are looking normal, no white smoke but ..... the air had sucked the rear window in that way that it was closed again..... For a moment I thought we had a HGF !!!
Anyway I read the following in this thread:
>Also if the heater is not turned on when bleeding
>then the air gets trapped here.
When I bought my first F, the dealer told me to keep the heater turned on in '1' or higher. Could this have something to do with minimalising the chance to have a HGF?
This thread is too long! I mentioned some time ago that I keep the heater valve open when the car is started from cold, in an attempt to relieve some of the pressure when the only flow through the engine is via the small diameter bypass hose. I think that opening the heater valve also allows that annoying bleed pipe to flow as well. I've no real idea whether this helps or not, as when the engine is cold and the thermostat is closed the coolant circuit is exactly the same as in a front-engine installation, and they don't have HGFs, do they?
|>This thread is too long! |
I suggested a seperate BBS subject in November 99
'MGF Cylinder Head Gasket'
but nobody wanted it. :)
|>"And following on from Roger.....|
>My personal view is that it is quite likely that the >MGF suffers a higher than average rate of failure for >a very simple reason....enthusiastic drivers thrash >the crap out of the engine to get the car to go fast."
Casey, I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you. I've looked after the MGF like a baby since new. I've checked the fluid levels each week, I have never driven it to its maximum speed and I very rarely take it into the red bit on the rev counter. I gave my wife's old Fiesta a bigger hammering than I've given the MGF. I expect that some drivers give the car a good thrashing (almost everyone else on this board I expect :-) but not all of us.
Basically the design is flawed, but it seems that Rover won't admit to it.
|"Basically the design is flawed...."|
OK, where does this come from? There is no proof that the design is flawed, but there is evidence that under certain badly-understood conditions HGF can happen.
Don't write like a journo on the technical board. Supposition masquerading as fact is dangerous.
(I acknowledge that there may be a problem when the car is incorrectly serviced, the expansion cap fails or the MPI inlet manifold is misaligned.)
|>"Basically the design is flawed...."|
>OK, where does this come from?
It comes from the it being repeated ad infinitum on this BBS *without any proof* (hearsay isn't proof)
If you repeat something enough it will pass from fiction into fact - and that is what is happening on the Head Gasket front.
And Dafydd, whilst your HGF may not be from excessive overuse of the right foot I only said that the failure rate may be higher due to this factor. Yours could just be one of the failures that would be perfectly acceptable from a normal manufacturing process.
>It comes from the it being repeated ad infinitum on this BBS *without any proof* (hearsay isn't proof)
I know very serious what you mean. This 'knowledge ballon' appears, surely !!
Special in this times of media overkill.
Knowledge balloon is meaned as:
1 has a complain, tells it to 10 people and these go on this way. 2 days later mean a million that 10000 have a problem.
Tell me what you like, :) but:
I've recently myself, so from basical information as professional Quality Engineer no doubts in that 100 or what reported CGFs in Dirks list.
Look at this thread and on my webside. Are that photos and bills and reports from dealers secondhand or virtual ?
Where shall I forward Emails and photos from direct CGF suffering friends ? :)
(Most from women :))
PS... should not sound flaming, but serious
|The old threads are the best threads!|
Interestingly someone wrote to Honest John in the daily Telegraph a few weeks back about his HG failure and asked if the *F* was prone to this.
HJ replied that his research had shown that the 'K' series in general had less failures than average and there were no indications of the *F* being above average.
I do not know the facts so can not comment myself but to the owner who has a HG failure then it is one failure too many.
The one thing that HJ did say was that the 'K' uses long through bolts/studs to hold the head in place and any 'stretching' of these bolts could lead to HG failure but I seem to remember that most engines use this system of head clamping.
The only thing that is certain is that this thread will run and run, might even catch up with Coronation Street!
|I think the best phrase of this thread: |
"Yours could just be one of the failures that would be perfectly acceptable from a normal manufacturing process."
Whoohaha, what a load of B**L!
Sure, go tell that to the guy standing next to his smoking & pissing F waiting for AA to tow him to the closest dealer, still puzzled what happened to him...
In any way, if they would tell this to me, the guy who says this would probably get a close encounter with my fist... >:(
I bought a 'sportscar' to drive it sporty, not to go to the grocery store (then I could aswell buy a Fiesta). And since my car has now passed 122K km, I think I am a very good testperson for high mileage effects on MGF. Conclusion: it sucks.
How many on this BBS have passed the 100K km mark (60,000+ miles) without a HGF or a knackered engine??? I'm listening!!
As I remember from SP's Kevin Daft, who told me they had loads of HGFs on MGFs for 'no apparent reason', with many different driver profiles: those who hit it hard, those who almost never use it and those who think 60mph is more than enough. He quoted that the danger zone starts around 20K miles, based on their experience.
And my dealer says similar things, but he hasn't sold enough cars (80, about 5 HGFs even from the most boring drivers) to say it out loud.
I understand Casey & Hugh want to keep the image of MGF a bit high, but I think you're not convinving us, esp. those 115 who already experienced 'the smell of death'. Perhaps you guys should refund us who pay the £500 for something that shouldn't happen... Like the french say:
"pour moi c'est clair, il y a quelque chose qui cloche avec cette bagnole"
|Just a few things to chew on:|
(a) The service desk at the garage informed me today that I would need a new engine. The garage received a reply to their fax within two hours of sending it to Rover, advising that it was all covered under warranty and for them to go ahead and replace the engine. Awfully efficient, especially on a 2500+ UKP repair job - almost as if they regularly did this sort of thing.
(b) I asked the mechanic on the phone as to how many MGFs had he seen with HGF? He replied "quite a few". I then asked him how many engines he'd replaced due to a HGF, he said "quite a few". Both replies hinted strongly that he'd seen a hell of a lot of them - an unusual amount.
I'm sorry that this isn't very scientific, but that's just the "journo" in me.
|I did not thrash my F either, if the temp goes to 150 I slow down for a while. What Casey is suggesting is that we have head gasket failures because we all thrash our cars and drive like loonies.|
You stated that you have seen this with Dirk, yes and how many other Fs were there at the time, how many others did you see driving like crazy?
Are you saying that driving my F more carefully than any other car I have owned is putting too much stress on the engine. If this is the case then we have a real problem. Don't go over 3000 revs with your F or you will be responsible for an HGF, I don't think so.
I don't think it is a design problem, more a build quality problem. The majority of Fs I'm sure have no HGF problems at all. I know they had some problems with the odd batch of gaskets though, which may account for some of the problems.
So, it is not entirely a design problem, but some things have to be taken into account with this engine. It is not entirely the high revving driver (even though MG do seem to encourage this in the advertising), it is not entirely a build quality issue. It is a combination of all of the above which contribute to a alleged high percentage of HGF with the MGF.
I don't think you have to be an enthusiast to thrash a car, and in my experience, enthusiasts like to look after the car. As many of the people on this BBS own their cars I would think that they will look after them more than say someone with a lease MGF.
Come on Casey, admit it, you are wrong, surely your ego will let you make this one small gesture :-)
|Sorry, I can't let my fingers off from this thread.|
>(b) I asked the mechanic on the phone as to how many MGFs had he seen with HGF? He replied "quite a few". I then asked him how many engines he'd replaced due to a HGF, he said "quite a few". Both replies hinted strongly that he'd seen a hell of a lot of them - an unusual amount.
:) quite a few, is that two or five :)
how much different MG-garages are working in the UK ?
So, the whole amount of CGF in the UK is:
(quite a few) x (amount of dealers) = ?
PS. I look for the garage amount in Germany. My dealer reported too 'only quite a few' when I asked him ... but I saw his <grin> in his face :)
|Following my HGF on Friday ... the *F* has been repaired and the cost 165GBP plus VAT. No not a typo error but a result of complaining to MG. I was charged half labour costs (6 hour job) only ... parts were F.O.C|
So how do you achieve this ...
For cars out of warranty (such as mine)
1) You need to report the incident to MG immediately b4 the garage starts any work on the repairs. Usual questions asked a) date of reg b) r u original owner c) mileage d) does it have full service history e) did u buy it from an MG dealer f) contact name at dealership
2) Inform the garage that you have spoken to MG but after they have completed the repairs.
3) The dealers report on the car is important so having a dealer u r comfortable with and who knows your car is a probably the most important influence.
4) And always thank the dealer for their efforts (I wasn't expecting the car back unitl Friday - what a pleasant surprise).
The following will have a negative effect on the likelihood of recovering costs :
If u r not the original owner (luckily for me I still got something despite being second owner).
If u did not buy from a franchised dealer.
If the service history is not up to date.
Age of car.
So here r my details
On : 10th Feb 2000
Date of reg : 31 Aug 1996
Mileage : 43000 mls
Relevant Mods : K&N, Janspeed exhaust
Warranty : none
I guess I should count myself lucky that MG coughed up for some of the costs. On the other hand it appears the *F* does suffer from a high percentage of HGF and MG's actions (in my particular case) seem to confirm that there is a recognised problem ...
I'm now interested in ways of preventing this from happening again. I will be trying out the water wetter product from Red Line and I'm intrigued by the effects of the heater controls on opening and closing all these valves and how they affect the cooling system. Ayone care to explain how it all works ???
Must say I was glad to get back behind the wheel - my borrowed K reg Micra was driving me potty.
|Dieter, I've seen the picture on http://www.fortunecity.de/hockenheim/senna/253/defects/m_n_hg.jpg|
Gee, what's that yellow stuff sipping out of the car, it's not the usual greenish fluo stuff.
Tell the owner that the coolant reservoir is supposed to be filled up with coolant stuff, rather than to piss in it, or that it will cause HGF ;-)
Okay now seriously. Each car has it's very own story. Far too many parameters to be taken into account (driven too much, driven too less, driven too slow, driven too hard, too much city-driving, too much highway-driving, high revving with a cold engine, nromal revving with a cold engine, car is garaged day & night, car is outside in the freezing cold day & night during winter time, serviced at indicated intervals, not always serviced at the indicated intervals, your dealership takes good care of your car, your dealership does not take good care of your car, your car has already suffered an accident (shocks are unhealthy for the engine components), your car has not yet incurred an accident, etc.).
Ah, don't bother about who's right or wrong regarding the HGF-matter, just hope for yourself that you'll never get faced with (another) one !
>I bought a 'sportscar' to drive it sporty
The F is too heavy and underpowered to be a sportscar - it is a roadster, it has always been sold as a roadster, and always will be. It will go fast, but only if you use a lot of high revs.
And there is a matter of driving style involved here as well. For example, one of the quickest F drivers I know of on this BBS could always keep up with me - when he was in a 1.8 and I was in a VVC - and he hasn't suffered a HGF. He is also a smooth driver.
>Awfully efficient, especially on a 2500+ UKP repair
>job - almost as if they regularly did this sort of
Or perhaps it was just a quiet day at MG so your dealer's request got seen very quickly, or perhaps your dealer has a good relationship with MG so they trusted the dealer's opinion more, or perhaps MG are striving to give quick responses to improve their customer service. In fact there are a lot of perfectly reasonable explanations that don't involve conspiracy theories.
And yet again Rover/MG have been berated for providing a crap product and doing nothing to sort it out - when they have done the right thing. And in Gaz's case they even exceeded the commitment they made when they sold the car.
>On the other hand it appears the *F* does suffer from
>a high percentage of HGF ........
Why - what confirms this? One occurence?
>and MG's actions (in my particular case) seem to
>confirm that there is a recognised problem ...
Would you have prefered them to disown you - as they had a perfect legal right to do? Then you could have bitched about how their actions proved that there was a recognised problem and that they were trying to hide it.
>It is a combination of all of the above which
>contribute to a alleged high percentage of HGF with
I save the best for last....I think you just answered your own points there Tony - *alleged* - i.e. not proven, hearsay, circumstancial.
Driving quickly is not the same as driving badly. How do you get to 7000 revs, how do you get from 7000 revs to 2000 revs, how do you change up or down a gear...
As Luc says - too many factors involved to possibly derive any meaningful stats from the comments on here or on Dirks website. So the best thing to do is to be aware of the possibility, learn to drive smoothly, and if it does happen to you expect a *reasonable* response from Rover.
Alternatively you can just keep bitching on about how bad Rover are for not giving you a new toy to play with everytime you break your old one.
293 MG garages in germany. ;-)
x 'quite a few'
293 x 2 = 596 ?
293 x 3 = 879 ?
293 x 4 = 1172 ?
Select what you like its only based on guesses. :) but makes IMO a little more sensible on what the 'problem' may be.
Approved is only the amount of german MG-garages with 293, dated April 1999 and the amount of 7000 registered MGFs until the end of 1999.
On this base you'll get 4.2 percent until up to 16.74 percent.
Casey, I for instance do not complain the car or the engine, but only the kind of customer relation of Rover-Germany.
... still waiting for a reply from Neuss on my letter, written in October 1999.
|>- *alleged* - i.e. not proven, hearsay|
Not proven, yes, hearsay, no, as we do have some quite good examples. I used the word to avoid appearing biased. You are still wrong in your insistence that the only reason we have the problem is driving style and non MG additions, this is quite clearly not the case from our experience on the BBS and from feedback from dealers. In my case and others we had our HGFs without any modifications and without thrashing the ar*e of the car. Dirk is an extreme example and cannot be used as a basis for your argument.
Whatever you say, the F does appear to have a unacceptably high instance if HGFs. If that was saving the best for last I don't think you have much of an argument. Winning an argument is about putting sensible points forward to prove your case, I have seen none of this so far, just a blind insistence that you know better than everyone else.
I could pick you up on a few minor points, but I don't think it is worth the effort, saying the MGF has a tendency to blow head gaskets is much more believable than saying TVRs never suffer from HGFs. Do you have anything to support this, as Roger stated the Rover unit has been known to blow head gaskets. What is it that TVR do to prevent this, are you saying a TVR has never had a head gasket problem, I don't think this is very likely as any engine (that has a HG) can have a head gasket problem.
You are obviously so concerned with your own importance that you can never admit to being wrong even when the majority of the evidence is against you. I have seen the technique before, Keep on repeating the same old thing until everyone gets board stiff and lets you get on with it.
Again I have no problem with the way Rover are quite happy (most of the time) to pay for this kind of failure. I think it is pretty much definite that the problem relates to engine temperature and with the low air flow over the engine and a less than ideal cooling system layout this is not surprising in the least. All that you seem to put forward is your opinion which is even further away from facts than the *alleged* high rate of HGFs on the MGF based on personal experience and reports from others.
I don't think this thread can really go much further, maybe a new one, the thoughts of chairman Casey, that way you can say what you like and we can all ignore you :-).
Ok, no more arguments on the Technical BBS, if you wish to continue, I'll see you on the General BBS :-).
|Does anyone know if the original Toyota MR2 (on which the F's engine layout and cooling system is based) is known for HGFs? Admittedly there was no BBS then so Toyota would have been able to keep it quiet if they had any decent after-sales people....|
|1 pint for Tony!|
and if Casey is suggesting I'm a bad driver, sorry dude, seems you're running out of arguments. Of course 'good drivers' buy only TVR 'toys'. Well, this boy is gonna buy an E46 M3 'toy', then I'll be glad to woop some TVR-ass >:)
|Tony, whilst you can keep resorting to personal attacks as a way of proving your own personal head gasket theory, I think I'll stick to the facts - which is that nobody on here has any proof *one way or the other*. On the TVR point I can honestly say that I have never heard of a Head Gasket going, many other things, but not a single head gasket.|
And Dirk, I've seen and heard your driving style - and yes it is very poor. Good luck with the M3, and hopefully BMW will repair your car quicker and more often than Rover have.
It really is a shame that so many on here are intent on consigning the MGF to the waste bin of car history - a good car is being destroyed by a lot of idle gossip. Funny, but it used to happen to TVR - everyone still thinks that TVRs are unreliable despite plenty of evidence to the contrary - but it was said enough about previous models and now it has stuck.
|>1 pint for Tony!|
I will take you up on that, fancy a trip to Utrecht in your new car?
have you ever heard of the law concept of presumption ? Proof is not everything !
2 solutions : you like to play "Don Quichotte" or you're a bit short minded :)
I'm not shouting to everyone the the MGF is a crap car ; in fact, I've found mine as rather reliable so far (but I don't have too much confidence in the Hydragas after 2 failures, and no, before you make an hypothesis, I've never took it offroad).
But the fact is we have too much heard of HGF's.
Stating that BBSers are all trashing their F's is the best example of unfounded assertion, what you are just trying to fight ... you are contradicting yourself !
You are right : we will never find correct figures of HGF's from a small sample, but we can all the same guess that there's a problem ; I'm just saying "a problem" and not a "design fault" or a "manufacturing fault", ... I just don't know.
|There is a good deal of letting-off of steam on this thread.|
In defence of Casey- there are no prevalence or incidence data for HGF in the MGF. And there is very little chance of getting it either, as this is sensitive commercial data that Rover/BMW will closely guard.
All we can do is document a cohort of failures in the hope that we can foreward reasonable advice to fellow enthusiasts. We need to identify similarities in vehicles that have suffered failures- and we try and work out what the right course of preventative action should be.
So come on guys- Dirk is doing good work by keeping the HGF database going, identifying a potential problem, but as Casey has highlighted (perhaps a little extremely?) we should be careful not to over extrapolate the issue. We are all enthusiasts here, and what we do is for all other enthusiasts benefit.
It's been a long day- so I am off for a beer! :o)
|>>It's been a long day- so I am off for a beer! :o)<<|
So do I.
Cheers Rob !
I can only offer you a virtual one
but maybe at Silverstone or a continental event ...
|Lots of passion here is no bad thing - though I'm sure all would see personal attacks as poor form - because in other areas, particularly the computer gaming scene, enthusiasts are seen as defing the trends and popular perceptions of products.|
Now car retailing is presently fairly oblivious to the power of the net but many of us would see that as about to change and these views, as someone extrapolated earlier, will be opinion forming in the wider community.
Whatever the engineering merits and statistical validity of HGFs Rover/BMW will be aware fo the power of perception as expressed increasingly in these fora.
Well if they don't they're just going to sell fewer cars !
|First of all it isn't fair, I've got one day off (yesterday) and what do I see on my favourite board everyone is going out for a pint....|
Let's say that there isn't a problem with HG's. Then I should expect that we have as many entries (and threads) of failing catalysts, rear lights, transmissions, ... as there are of failing head gaskets. But no one has ever suggested to start tracking or to keep statistics about other failures. Doesn't that mean something? I perfectly know that this isn't a proof, but it has some value.
>>I bought a 'sportscar' to drive it sporty
>The F is too heavy and underpowered to be a sportscar
>- it is a roadster, it has always been sold as a
>roadster, and always will be. It will go fast, but
>only if you use a lot of high revs.
and now we can start a thread about finding a good definition for the term "sportscar". I don't think the TVR is a sportscar, the interior looks to nice and the wheels are always spinning.... <hehe>
|>>Tony, whilst you can keep resorting to personal attacks as a way of proving your own personal head gasket theory.|
>I don't think this thread can really go much further, maybe a new one, the thoughts of chairman Casey, that way you can say what you like and we can all ignore you :-).
If this is a personal attack then I think some people are a little over sensitive. Considering I have only stated the FACT that from the evidence we have it looks like we can quite fairly say there is a problem. I agree that we don't have all the evidence, but from the evidence we have it looks likely.
>>And Dirk, I've seen and heard your driving style - and yes it is very poor. Good luck with the M3, and hopefully BMW will repair your car quicker and more often than Rover have.
And you are complaining about me making personal attacks......
My statement about TVRs was to show that you cannot say that TVRs never have HG problems, and your so called evidence is that you have not heard of it. So what you are saying is that if you don't know about something it does not exist. My statement was an example to show the reality of the claim you made which is backed up by less evidence than the MGF HGF problem. I think it would not take very long to find a TVR that had blown a HG at some time, a zero HG failure rate would be such an uncommon thing for any make of car it is very UNLIKELY to be true and TVR would be shouting about the reliability being better than any other car on the market.
>It really is a shame that so many on here are intent on consigning the MGF to the waste bin of car history.
I don't see anyone doing this, we still own our cars and love them, to report and discuss common problems, which is what this appears to be, is of benefit to other owners. Your insistence that the problem does not exist and if it does it has nothing to do with Rover is ridiculous. I have in this thread tried to put sensible argument forward, but you obviously have not read what I actually have been saying because you have a need to be right whatever the cost. I have not been saying I am absolutely right, what I have been saying is given the evidence we have it looks like a common problem.
I personally want to keep my car for many years, so it would be better if I can take all steps to avoid problems like an HGF. If I assume we have no problem and it is just nonsense I would not take the precautions. We have the right to discuss these things and if you don't like it you can go somewhere else. You claim to be the voice of reason, but this appears to be untrue, it looks to me that you would argue any point if you thought it would make you appear to be knowledgeable.
I find this one track extreme bias and inability to deal with what appears to be a common problem very disappointing from someone who runs an online motor magazine. In this whole discussion you appear to have lost the plot completely, nothing is black and white.
I think you could also use a sense of humor transplant. And by the way, the cows have now come home so I think we could do with a break from this silly discussion. Why I am still responding to this I don't know I should have left you to it days ago, just one of my many failings I'm sure.
Sorry to everyone for continuing this. I know I don't really need to make these statements as Casey is quite capable of defeating himself without the need for intervention from others. And besides I want two pints from Dirk :-)
|Ok Tony, 2 pints for you (this summer perhaps?), but at the next *MGF* gathering don't show up with a *TVR*, or we'll think that you just come there to show off, think you're some kinda superior guy with a superior car and 'automatically' superior driving skills.|
In that case we'll invite the F550 guy once again, he deserves true attention from F'ers...
This thread was discussed between 16/01/2000 and 11/02/2000
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