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MG MGF Technical - HGF Legal Action in Progress

300 individuals have signed up as part of a group claim against MG Rover, I'm sure more will sign up as a result of the watchdog expose. Anyway, if your interested here is the link.

http://www.imonline.co.uk

I'm very saddened by the whole thing, especially as I regard Rover as a national institution, even if it is owned by zee germans. But the last straw came when I took my lovely MGF in for HGF replacement. It has gone back again since to the Approved MGR dealer for a flush again, which is fair enough. But When i noticed a plastic inside mirror adjuster missing, this was the last straw. How can my car come back from the Approved Dealer with less than it had before it went in. They were not very receptive to my compaints. Also, they would only tell me the head gasket had been replaced. I know when they initially spoke to me they gave me a run down of all costs, probably thinking i was paying myself. When i ask for evidence as to what had been done after my warranty claim it was not forth coming.

I dont really think any MGF driver would like to see the end of the company, but they're approach with me has been shocking and very un consumer orientated (if that can be classified as english).

Look forward to selling my lemon.

Ciao.
Mal

Mal,

MG Rover are NOT owned by Germans any more. It is a privately owned wholey British company and has been since the Phoenix Consortium bought the company from BMW a couple of years back.

SF
Scarlet Fever

Oh, one more thing. I'm not sure if i should wish you luck or not with your group action. I suffered HGF a while ago and it wasn't nice at all, but you should consider your target before launching an action like this, they are hardly in a position to pay any remunerations, justified or not.

SF
Scarlet Fever

I'm sorry, but couldn't resist...

This sounds 4me like a US like legal action against Tobacco Companies or similar _american way of live_.

;) <--- Smily !! No flames !!

Sorry about your problems, though. :(
Dieter K.

If I was a cynic, I would say that this is a spam on behalf of Irwin Mitchell. Group action = $$$s for IM? :-)
Neil Courtney

I haven't (still) suffered any major fault with my TF, only any minor mistakes, but I've previosly owned ! Ford Fiesta, 1 VW vento, 1 opel vectra, 1 nissan primera, and drive a lot more, and sadly, I like as normal that any new car has at least 1 big fault: Fiesta with the radiator pipes deformated and losing coolant, VW Vento with air conditioner giving only very hot air (it was given to my in a 45º C day -113º F!!!!), Vectra with an assorted selection of lamps -including headlamps- falling down (plastic broken) and a general recall afecting a fuel pipe (ah, and my Vectra brother with an HGF), Primera with rear bumper falling down any time a car press it while parking...)

HGF appears to be too much frecuent than it has to be, so shows a real tendency. And although reading this board, now I know the ways to minimize the risk of an HGF, that don't exclude the whole posibility.

So, maybe, MGR would have to investigate the causes of the HGF, and made a general recall.

That would be very good, from the marketing point of view.

But I don't think a legal action like this would have any positive result.

Anyway, I m interested in the way that ends.

Regards.
Spinder00

My expereince with HGF has been made much worse by the whole attitude of the MG dealership, although I dont agree court action is pointless because if this is the only way we can promote some sort of customer care attitude then so be it.

My MGF has sat in the dealership since June as I refuse to drive it, my expereince may be isolated but I have been towed in by the AA three times in less than 6 months and I am paying over three hundres ponund a month for my car to sit in a dusty gagare as I will not sell it on principle I dont want to rip of others like I feel I have been ripped off and this is really taking an effect.

Please email me if you have any suggestions

Scoobychats@aol.com

cheers
Vicky Raybould

[although I dont agree court action is pointless because if this is the only way we can promote some sort of customer care attitude then so be it.]

If a group action succeeds, then it sets a precedent. MG Rover might be able to pay the first group, but not all the others that follow grabbing onto the shirt tails.

Outcome of a successful legal action = MG Rover goes broke = no dealerships at all = no customer care at all = everyone looses (except the lawyers).

I wish people would think these things through before committing themselves to such a rash course of action.

Jasper
Jasper

Jasper,
People obviously have thought about the reasons behind their actions - they feel badly let down by the Company, and want their bills picked up. Why not?
It's got nothing to do with anyone who personally does not wish to go down this route.
It's all about freedon of choice.
Paul
Paul Lane

If others freedom of choice results in MG Rover going broke and the loss of thousands of jobs, the loss of the dealership network, the resulting nightmare trying to get your car serviced and still retain some sort of warrantee, the residuals on the cars dissapearing to literally nothing overnight and the loss of the opportunity to purchase a new MG or Rover in the future then i'm sorry, but what about my freedom of choice?

I agree, HGF is just plain wrong and the customer shouldn't have to pick up the tab. But if this case succeeds, then the amount of remuneration that is likely to be paid in the long term, not so much by the people taking the initial action, but by all the hangers on that will follow once the precedent has been set, is highly likely to wipe out the company.

If this succeeds then it's likely all our MGs and Rovers are in trouble. A few thousand get paid, a few more thousand loose thier job and a few million end up with worthless cars.

Whose freedom of choice is being infringed here?

Is it any wonder i'm more than a bit angry?

Jasper
Jasper

For me it's not JUST the HGF I've had but the number of other problems that all contribute, faulty electric windows that take 6 weeks to repair, faulty brake calipers that were supposedly check the first 3 times the car was at the dealers the list goes on... even now after getting the car back from it's HGF repair last week I found two big popper/caps sitting in the coin holder thing in the console and I've got no clue where they came from!!! (it's really bugging me! ha ha)

All this and the car's only 18 months old!
Darran

Darran,

Sounds like the 'popper caps' are carpet trim clips.

Hall Of Shame is back up and running >> http://wwwshame.4mg.com << had an Email from Mike Barnes (the webmaster) the other day saying that it's now OK again.

Whatcha' dooin' on the 4th? Fancy popping down to the Dick Turpin for the Essex Roadsters meet? I'll try to put your popper caps back! :-)

SF
Scarlet Fever

Jasper,

I take your point.

But if MGR got their act together and produced a reliable vehicle, then they would sell more and spend less money on warranty repairs - all helping the bottom line of the company.

Sam
Sam Murray

I am not surprised such legal action is taking place given the way the media have portrayed this issue and the ever increasing willingness of our society to apportion blame and sue accordingly.
But I think the real reason for this is the poor customer service from MG Rover. A head gasket is a replaceable part and it can be expected to fail on any car, the K series does seem to have a tendency to fail it's head gaskets more commonly than most other cars but this in itself is not really cause for legal action. The issue seems to me to be that MG Rover seem to offer no help at all, whilst many other car manufacturers do "help" owners who experience problems with their cars. The examples I am thinking of are BMW helping owners whose engines needed the cylinder liners recoated and vauxhall helping owners of cavaliers and astras whose camshafts had worn out after only a few years. In both these cases there was clearly some design flaw, but as the manufacturers went some way towards the cost of repairs (not always paying all the costs) the owners just took this as part of vehicle ownership. MG Rover seem to have made the mistake of helping very little or not at all if cars were out of warranty and so what should be seen as replacing a part on the vehicle which was never designed to last the lifetime of the vehicle, has now become a major design flaw and cause for litigation.
Jason H
Jason H

> the resulting nightmare trying to get your car serviced

I see Mike Satur franchises the lenght and breadth of the country...
Leigh

I DONT WISH TO SEE MG ROVER GO BUST...so your right Jasper.....it is all to do with customer service.....they give F*ck all once you've purchased the car....its a disgrace. And frankly I've had enough.
Whats more if your car is under warranty you should have priority over any other work the garage is carrying out..instead of being made to wait weeks to get the car seen to and have to resort to using public transport because the aforementioned courtesy (or however its spelt) car....is "currently in use sir".

But Paul L has a point about freedom of choice.....and as for job losses.....if the company goes bankrupt...TOUGH

Good day and good night.
Mal

It's not MGR that gives a bad impression but the dealer IMO, I've had a problem or two with my Trophy, they where all fixed within 1 week by my local MGR Dealer (Osbornes Colchester), while I might agree that HGF's are a problem a 'class' action is not the solution.
Regards Mike
Mike Nunn

Jason,
you said: "A head gasket is a replaceable part and it can be expected to fail on any car"
I also have a Megane and an Escort. I don't "expect" the head gasket to fail on either of these two cars.
The engines on the aeroplanes I work on are replaceable, as are the wings and horizontal stabilisers, but I certainly don't "expect" them to fail. This is like the recent "it's a safety valve" argument. What a load of nonsense.

As you state, the F rate of HGF is a tad exceptional, but I think that all this doom and gloom regarding MGR going under etc, is very extreem. Probably a rumour started by MGR to work on the minds of some so they don't try and "claw back" the costs of an exceptional HGF repair.

A class action will be the wake up call MGR have being trying to put off by their constant arrogant attitude towards owners whom have been unlucky to suffer one.

Paul
Paul Lane

>>The engines on the aeroplanes I work on are replaceable, as are the wings and horizontal stabilisers, but I certainly don't "expect" them to fail. <<
They most certainly will fail (unless we're talking DC-3s here) and they ARE expected to fail at some time - hence the high cost of aircraft (preventative) maintenance. The maintenance of aircraft is irrelevant to private car ownership.
MGR are replacing head gaskests under warranty - outside that, it's more likely to be a service problem rather than a manufacturing problem.
The only 'winners' here are the lawyers.
Steve

Paul,
The point I was trying to make is that I think it is fair to expect the engine block/head/pistons etc to last the life of the car (within reason!) but someoneis very naive if they think gaskets and other such items will last as long. Look at the fixed price menu service board in many car dealers, often head gasket replacement is listed, does this not show that it is an item which it is expected to replace in the life of the car.
I too work with aero engines, although in a naval format and you say you replace them, this si surely to prevent failure - if that logic is followed than head gaskets should be replaced every x,000 miles to prevent failure! As our failure of our aero engines are not so disastrous as they would be on an aeroplanbe we do not replace the engines and yes we expect items to fail in service - especially gaskets!
Jason H
Jason H

Dear fellow MGF owners,

I am due to be collcting my '96 16v from the dealers tommorow after its second HGF.

I was suprised and completly cheesed off that the HG failed at all, having just had a full service performed on the vehicle including cambelt and replacement of a faulty water pump.

I was convinced that the service was performed inadequatly as I did not notice any antifreeze in the system following the service and wonder if poor bleeding may have also contributed?

I managed to negotiate a discount on the replacement of HG on this basis (just about), although on collection from the workshop it was apparent all was not well. Starting on 3 cylinders and "locking" on the starter motor. After a period and further warning signs I returned the car under guarentee and hope to receive a repaired car with no bill tomorrow.

I was informed the reason they are prone is that to warm quickly the K series holds very little water in the head. In my case the original overheating seems to have been caused by a faulty fan switch. There is also apparently a modified HG avaliable.

Happy motoring!
Russ Mellor

Whats more if your car is under warranty you should have priority over any other work the garage is carrying out..instead of being made to wait weeks to get the car seen to and have to resort to using public transport because the aforementioned courtesy (or however its spelt) car....is "currently in use sir".

What about the other cars in the workshop that are under warrantee?

and as for job losses.....if the company goes bankrupt...TOUGH

So you want to own a worthless car then? You must have loads of money to throw away if this is your attitude, are you trying to blow a load of money and have no assetts to show for it like Brewsters' Millions?
Anon


Hello to all MGF owners,

The thing about HGF do realy get to me.
Mine is a MKII from 2000, with 40500 km on the clock,
and when i read about all the HGF's i get a little worried.
Instead of banging the MGR company in the head, why not try and get them to solve the problem, and allso what us with older cars can do to prevent it.
There must be something that can be done.
Maybe Rob or Dieter has a idea of it. Would be very happy to know what to do. I have to say thoug, that i have never had a problem with mine, and it's a realy nice car. Can't wait to the summer comes.

cheers

Kjeld
Kjeld Andersen

300 eh .... But, big legal problem here! Is the company SOLELY to blame for this problem?

Russ WROTE:

>>........ HG failed at all, having just had a full service performed on the vehicle including cambelt and replacement of a faulty water pump.<<

Hmmmmmmm........ that rings a few bells!

To help matters, what I'd REALLY like to see would be for MG-R to make every MG-R dealership working on or servicing these cars send ALL their staff involved with actual "hands on" to attend an intensive course on Servicing the MGF correctly paying particular attention to routine coolant replacement and any associated cooling system work.

John McFeely
John McFeely

I read somewhere that in a survey of main dealer mechanics most of them had no formal certification for the cars they were actually expexted to work on, ie a 40 year old mechanic that trained when just a young man, would not nessasaraly know the full ins and outs of a modern engine, so I dont think the problem just lies with MG dealers.
G A Glasgow

Surely the problem lies with all dealers - it is their responsibility to see that all of their staff have the correct qualifications for the jobs they are doing - which of course means seeing that they get get the correct training courses and update courses for new types of vehicles and as I understand it most of the manufacturers run these courses.

Ted
Ted Newman

Steve,
Fair points made re aircraft parts failing. However, I do not agree that aircraft maintenance/servicing and car ownership should be treated differently. Perhaps I have too high standards when it comes to engineering, but I expect something to be built to last a reasonable length of time - 20k miles to me (and I think, many others) for the Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF) of a head gasket is simply not long enough.
I dispute your theory that HGF's which occurr outside of warranty periods are all servicing issues.
Also, as a low mileage per year user, the Warranty is irrelavent as it is time based, not mileage.
You are right in asserting that lawyers will be the winners, they usually are. However, if I can get some of my money back, then so am I.

Jason,
I don't think an owner is nieve if he believes a head gasket should last 100k+ miles. It should certainly last more than the 24k mine went at (and many others have failed around).
Just because a job has an advertised rate at a dealers, doesn't mean an owner should expect to have to do it!

Kjeld,
You've not been here much have you. Do you seriously think we've been sitting around just bashing MGR. There are some very, very bright sparks here (far more clever than I) regarding the F cooling system, who have been urging MGR to solve the problem for ages.
Glad your enjoying your F. It is a lovely motor - a thrill to drive. May you enjoy many more top down summers.

Ted,
Bang on. We've had this recurrent training issues voiced before in the Medical/Dental professions as well.

Paul
Paul Lane

>> Warranty is irrelavent as it is time based, not mileage. <<

Warrantee is both, three years or 60K. But i get your point, i'm just beong pedantic. ;-)

Some stats from the HOS site:

Mean mileage at time of failure = 31,440, not the 20K suggested. Again, i'm being pedantic as to my mind this truer figure is still unaccepably low, this is made worse however as...

Mean age of car at time of failure = 35 months (nearly 3 years old). This is around the time the warrantee is due to expire, meaning that a large proportion of the failures were (just) outside of the warrantee period - not good.

The majority of failures are on cars of a 1996 / 1997 vintage, there is a VERY NOTICABLE drop off in incedents from 1999 onwards.

So it is wrong to assume that all Fs/TFs K engined cars will suffer HGF, the only data we have on this subject says otherwise. It is also wrong to assume that there is a problem with HGF on K engines, the data suggests that there was a problem on engines from 1996/7 and that GREAT STRIDES WERE MADE towards solving the problem, resulting in a reduction in reported incedents from 67 in 1997 (at their peak) to only 5 (in 2000, the highest reported figure post engine mods - the worst case), or a reduction of 92.5%

On the basis of these figures i can't see the legal action succeeding, when MGR say "they don't have a problem", these figures suggest they are right. MGR don't have a problem (any more).

To the 7.5% who will get HGF i'm sorry, it sucks bigtime. But you are statistically in a very small minority now.

SF

Scarlet Fever

Paul
I do understand your points - my HGF occurred at about 22K miles, but was covered by the warranty.
I believe some of the problems are due to design / manufacturing - but how much can be achieved in court given the current state of automotive engineering ?
Good Luck with the case.
Steve

Just received an e-mail from the organisation representing the action group.

They are going to sting each claimant for an initail contribution of £100 towards the cost of the action.

Given the actual cost to us of c. £600, this appears a bit risky to me.

Sam
Sam Murray

SF,
Agree. The 36 months time line is a real bummer.
I agree that not all F's will suffer HGF. Teds and others are a testament to that.

Steve
Cheers mate.
Paul

Sam,
Hmmmm. Some serious thinking to be done!
Paul
Paul Lane

This thread was discussed between 25/11/2003 and 28/11/2003

MG MGF Technical index

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