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MG MGF Technical - High Flow Filter

Can anyone recommend the ramair filter which fits in to standard air intake box as supplied by Moss?
I would like to fit this before in the future fitting the K&N everyone is raving about ,how loud is this at idle and pull away, am I going to wake and annoy all my neighbours who don't have double glazing?
Went down to Micheldevers in hampshire today and they set my F up very well to non standard rover tracking spec. Would like to very much Recommend..
Rich

Rich,

Can't help you on the Ramair filter but can assure you that the noise from the K&N only comes into play when you accelerate hard. Then you hear the great induction roar as the engine gulps down the extra air.

If you are running a steady speed on not putting too much pressure on the right pedal it makes no more noise than the standard filter.

I would be amazed if anyone more than 5 foot from the car would notice the extra noise when accelerating hard. In short no need to worry about upsetting your passenger or neighbours!

I am not a great fan of noise and have therefore avoided changing the exhaust. The K&N noise is just a delight and the memsaab enjoys it to (the noise that is!).

All this is based on personal experience and zero measurable fact but hope it helps.

Cheers

Patrick
Patrick

Hi Rich,

Some information that you may find helpful can be found at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robmidgleybell/filter.htm

Basically, you are asking about a replacement panel filter. These are great, because they are cheap, easy to fit, do not require you to remove any standard parts. They are also very quiet.

Which MGF do you have? If you have a 1.8i, these panel filters make the car feel much nicer to drive, by ridding the power curve of an irritating dip at 3,500 rpm. If you have a VVC, I doubt you'll notice any difference at all. Therefore, in a 1.8i go for it, or in a VVC don't bother.

A K&N 57i and the Ramair cone filter induction kits are both excellent. You'll be surprised at the noise at first, and then you'll be grinning all the way to your favourite road. Neither will wake your naighbours. For this, buy a Trevor Taylor exhaust (like I have ;o) LOL)

In other words, I totally agree with what Patrick has already said.

HTH

Rob
Rob Bell

Thanks For Yor Help Rob and Patrick, My MGF is the 1.8i.
So will be fitting the ramair panel filter to start of with.
Rich

For the record, I would disagree a little bit with Rob's comments on a panel filter in a VVC. I have a K&N panel filter in a VVC (actually a Lotus 111S) and although the power gain is marginal (see the graphs on Rob's website) the improved throttle response and noise under hard acceleration make it a very nice change.

Per
Per

Fitted the Ramair Panel filter in my 1.8i and the car feels noticeably sportier on acceleration.
Have yet to work out whether this will affect mpg though.Probably because the car maybe driven faster.
Rich

Thanks for that feed back Per- I personally haven't sampled a VVC with 'only' a panel filter. I'll make a note of the comments you've made, and ensure that the web site is updated.

Glad to hear that you've fitted the filter Rich- enjoy!

Cheers

Rob
Rob Bell

Matt,Bracknell (but can't change the lancashire bit)

Can i have some info please, now i would like to put on a 57i, but for various reasons i'm not going to, insurance (current insureres won't let me), warranty etc. Will changing the panel filter insert effect any of these, and what kind of change/improvment do you get with a new insert?

Also, how easy is it to change, being a complete muppet with very limited equipment, will i be able to do it myself?

thanks

Matt
Matt Lawrance

Rich, have you thought about dumping the standard intake pipe for the one which ducts to the nearside intake grille? It certainly improves things though it does roar a bit! - Rog.

Nick
Nick

Matt,

The K&N both produces documented performance gain and makes the engine bay look very different to the standard car. Therefore probably hugely wise to get the insurance company to sign off on the change.

A panel filter looks like it will have some benefit but not the the scale of the full K&N. However since it fits into the existing air box and therefore not change the look of the engine bay how will anyone know that you have made this change? It would take a pretty dedicated insurance invisigator to spot you did not have the standard Rover air filter if the worst happened! While I would not advise anyone to deceive their insurance company- I cannot see this small change is worthy of declaration. I also have a concern that when asking and insurance company anything, the easy answer is always NO, so why give them the chance.

As for fitting it yourself, this is not difficult. You need to unclip the softtop where it is secured to the back of the parcel shelf and then tip the whole assembly forward. You then take the rear parcelshelf cover and this reveals the enginge cover that is secured with about 8 screws. Unscrewing these allow the engine cover to be removed and the full engine bay is laid out in front of you. Air box is on the port side (left facing forward!) and is your standard Rover filter box. Open up take old filter out and insert new. Reverse process to re-assemble.

Fittimng the K&N was the first bit of car maint. I had done in 20 years and I found it dead simple - just changing the filter element is simpler still. Go for it!

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Patrick
Patrick

Just picking up on what Nick has mentioned WRT to cold air uptake for your filter system.

The nearside air intake is possibly a far better place to draw air from than the standard system which draws air from the rear of the engine bay (the coolest area of the engine bay BTW- from observations that Paul has made).

However, I am not so convinced that this is the BEST place to draw air from- from our observation with streamers on a moving car, the nearside airintake appears to be a low pressure area when the car is on the move. Basically this will result in a lower charge density and hence a disadvantage over drawing in air at the same temperature at atmospheric pressure. In this respect, drawing air from below the car *may* be preferable- although the down side is more debris- and this means more frequent filter cleaning.

I am in the latter camp for air filter cold air source- at least until someone can prove to me the error of my ways!!!

Cheers

Rob
Rob Bell

When I fitted the ramair panel filter from Moss I managed to take the old standard one out and fit the new one from inside the boot,it was a bit fiddlely but it saves taking out the engine bay rear cover.I didn't see the point in telling my insurance company of such a small change .I didn't when i used (non-standard tyres).They never pay out on a claim anyway !
Rich A3 HERSHAM.
Richard March

Matt,

>Also, how easy is it to change, being a complete muppet with very limited >equipment, will i be able to do it myself?

As it happens I spent sometime yesterday taking some pictures of how to get into the F's engine bay for use on my website. I don't have teh pictures back yet, but I hope I will be able to put something together on my website over the weekend. It should be just what you need to know with regards to fitting an alternative panel filter, although I do have a K&N fitted already so the pictures won't be of much used to you in this area. HTH.

http://www.dotcomoff.demon.co.uk

Home of the F'ers Gallery and MG Dealer Guide :)
Paul Lathwell

A while ago, Rob gave a good description on how to change the panel filter without removing the engine cover. Here it is:

<<
1. remove the inspection grille
2. locate air box on the left hand side of the engine bay
3. On the right of the box, there is some flexible rubber tubing fixed with a jubilee clip. Losen this by unscrewing the locking screw, and remove the flexible tube from the airbox.
4. Unclip the four retaining clips holding the top half of the airbox to the lower half. To are on the rear edge (closest to you) and the other two are on the sides of the box, furthest from you.
5. The top of the air box is now free- lift up and rotate it through 90 degrees to reveal the filter.

Change the filter, and reassemble the air box and reconnect that flexible tube. Job done.

Should only take you 20 minutes if you haven't done this before.

Warning about those retaining clips. They are nasty- when they are released they let go with some energy, usually squashing digits in the process! You've been warned!

Rob
>>

I have done it myself following these instructions, and it worked fine!

Per

P.S: You don't mind me quoting you, do you Rob? ;-)
Per

>>P.S: You don't mind me quoting you, do you Rob? ;-)<<

LOL, no worries Per!

Rob
Rob Bell

Per,

I saw yesterday on the TV news a grey Elise in Brussels (it was about air pollution, etc.)
Was it yours ?

Fabrice
Fabrice

Thanks for the help lads, going to order myself a filter and get on the job. i prefer the sound of not taking off the engine cover, i have no garage and it is bound to start raining if i do

will i notice much difference when its fitted
Matt Lawrance

Rob,

Good point about re-routing the cold air pickup to underneath the vehicle. It shouldn't cause too much of a problem, i'll have a look tonight and give some thought to widening the intake to perhaps form some kind of scoop. With regards foreign objects; a mesh over the intake will stop large debris but you're right about more frequent filter cleaning. But then what the hell, a recent thread showed us that we were all cleaning well before to recommended period anyway!

All this talk and repeated threads about intake configs, gave me the idea a couple of weeks ago to look at the set up on my Astra TD van. I found an awfull arrangement of ducting to the front grille with a constriction in it. After taking out the whole lot leaving the airbox to breath directly to the front of the engine bay it goes like a rocket with virtually no lag from the turbo whilst changing down the gears. I wonder if K&N do a panel replacement for my van???

Nick ;-)
Nick

Nice one Nick! Hey, maybe I should have a look at my girlfriend's Rover200? ;o)

I even have a spare K&N panel filter... ;o)

Rob
Rob Bell

Fabrice,

I didn't watch TV yesterday but my Elise is grey, so it might have been mine. It's true that it does attract a lot of attention, but I never expected TV news programs to make a feature about it... ;-))

Per
Per

Wheres the best place to get a panel filter for an F, and how much should i pay?
Matt Lawrance

Matt. the ramair I have cost £25 ish from Moss check out their website ,sorry have no info on k&n or others.
Rich
Rich

Nick, Gillingham: re: astra Van

Certainly they DO do a K&N for the Astra petrol engines, but I gave up on it because it made our 2.0 EcoTech sound like a tractor at tickover (may not be a problem for a diesel!), and its normal driver said she didn't want that!

I ended up with a K&N pannel in there (which they also do).

I've actually still got the astra 57i if you ever come towards the M40 (are you the Kent or Dorset Gillingham?)

Neil.
Neil

Matt, try Lesley at Kinnor (http://www.knairfilters.com/)

Otherwise, try any one of the mg specialists- such as Brown and Gammons.

Rob
Rob Bell

Hi Neil,

The TD would probably end up sounding like a sea harrier rather than a tractor if it had a 57i kit! , One time after doing a service i forgot to replace the air pipe onto the turbo-charger and it made a delightful wooshing sound when throttling up! so with the cone it might sound the same. I'm not sure if the intake setup is the same as the petrol. Ho hum.

BTW a had a look at the cold air pipe last night and it will be easy to move it to under the car. I'll have a go tonight and will be able to give it a good test run on the way to Plymouth on Friday.

Nick
Nick

Partial answer to Matt & a bit of a question covering some old ground:

I'm insured with Admiral and they made no increase to my insurance premium when I fitted the K&N 57i just over a year ago. Some companies wouldn't insure me with it. I forget which.

As it's renewal time, I'm about to start calling around, especially as I hear that premia have been hiked a lot in the past few months. For anyone new to this BBS, there's a good list of insurers on the FAQ, but if anyone knows any other insurers who are OK with the K&N, it might save me some phone calls.

Thanks,
Jim
Jim

Speaking of cold air ducts, I saw an MR2 the other day with an F1-style "snorkel" that came up out of the left-hand side of the engine cover and over the roof! Totally unrestricted airflow, but what happens when it rains?
Alister Louis

Rob,

I did the conversion earlier this evening. It took about 30 minutes to do.

It now drops straight down from the airbox and does 1 90 degree turn to face forward under the car (mounting as near to the axle as possible minimises any risk of grounding). It is securely fixed in place via the original bracket rivetted to the underside.

I noticed the the region of the car where it is now mounted is lower than other places under the car, so am i right in thinking that it should therefore be a high pressure area??

After a short hop around the block (20 miles) i can report that the sound is surprisingly more grunty and when opening up the throttle it seemed to have a bit more gusto. I'm off to Plymouth tomorrow so i'll have a bit more info after my return.

See ya!

Nick
Nick

Curious that the system sounds louder- I wonder what the explanation for that could be?

My guess that the lower the scoop, the higher the ambient pressure of the air will be (over simplified ofcourse)- so I would say you probably have you air intake at about the same place as mine. Whatch out for those new fangled speed bumps that are only little Islands in the roads- this is what gets my air intake every time.

I look forward to hearing what you find out Nick- as you can clearly compare and contrast the two different intake locations.

Cheers

Rob
Rob Bell

Rob,

Re the sound; tha same principle as putting your home speakers in the corners of the room? higher pressure area=better base response?

Nick
Nick

Rob, just like to say that site (link above) is excellent, nice one. (it takes me a long time to look at these things or i would have said sooner)

I have a K&N Element filter on order, looking forward to breaking things when i try and fit it, it may be easy, but i'll make a mess you can be sure of that

When its fitted i'll let you know what i think of it

Cheers
Matt Lawrance

Thanks Matt- glad it was of help.

Nick, I'll include your impressions of your induction set up on this site if that's okay?

Rob
Rob Bell

Rob,

Did you catch my notes concerning my thoughts about the new intake setup after the Plymouth run. If not i posted them under 'a question of speed' as it seemed relevant there.
To sum up;

1) Much noisier.
2) Top speed down from 135mph+ to 130mph max. (had trouble overtaking a Focus!)
3) Twitchy throttle response at speed.
4) Fuel economy seems better.

A bit of a mixed bag, you could say.

Nick.
Nick

Hi Nick

Sorry- been 'off line' for a couple of days.

These findings are very interesting, and have been giving them some thought. Perhaps this is exactly what we should have wanted.

I think that the increased noise is the clue here.

Drawing the air from under the car is going to be disadvantaged insofar as pressure is concerned. The ram scoop is fine in principle, but the air flow up the ducts is going to be anything but linear. What I think is happening is that the air being scooped is turbulent and fast- and probably not constant, setting up pressure waves within the intake system. This does not pose a problem if the air at the other end is being 'hosed' towards an exposed cone filter, but in an enclosed air intake system is bad news. What is needed is a capacitance camber to smooth out the intake pressure- a large air box would do if placed before the filter. I would guess this is exactly the purpose of the resonance camber in the standard intake system. Having alot of bends in the intake tract would also slow the intake charge. Great for low end pulling power- but will starve a high reving engine.

So what would the ideal be? I think that drawing the coldest air possible is vital, and as much of it as possible. Therefore an air scoop to force air into a capacitance camber, with an outlet for the now slower moving constant pressure air to the filter. Thinking about it, this is exactly the way that a F1 intake system is designed... Shouldn't be too difficult to make. Oh, if only I had the time... :o/

Cheers

Rob

PS I suspect the side vent is probably much better because the air here is moving very slowly- perfect for a short intake enclosed induction system.
Time to update the airfilter web page methinks!
Rob Bell

Hi Rob,

Well, the resonance chamber is still in place so i could try routing though it again and see what happens. I've made a drawing of what could be an ideal scoop to mount under the vehicle and connect to the inlet pipe. Once it's been fabricated i'll try that out too.

Oh, and BTW i've ordered a K&N panel for the Diesel Astra van and should get it early next week. Should be interesting.

Hopefully we'll all get a chance to meet up at silverstone to compare notes!

Nick.
Nick

I first heard the 57variety K&N about 2 years ago
bloody horrible,
sounds like a airplane lavatory next to your head.

Nasty nasty nasty dont do it yuk.

Patrick are you for real? Loads of noise inside and nothing outside? Isn't that back to front? If you overtake a Zzzz3 dont you want them to know about it?

stick to the panel filter keep it nice and peaceful inside, and get a Trevor Taylor pipe to remind the Krauts who won the war!

Blimey sometimes I really worry

Neil

I just can not help wondering:-

1/ What sort of aeroplanes Neil travels on?

2/ What he is doing with the aeroplanes lavatory besides his head?

Ted
Ted Newman

I have a couple of comments after having time to catch up with this thread.

Forget trying to place an 'scoop' into oncoming airflow as all you will achieve is a dirty filter much, much quicker. The 'ram' effect 'advantages' that you may be able to achieve are insignificant and are more than cancelled out by the turbulence involved. Better still is to turn the ram around so you draw from the cooler airflow and you don't pick up all the crap that is carried in the airflow, but you do benefit from the cooler temp of this airflow.

In respect of the nearside vent. I would add that I have modified the airintake system on my car to pick up from the general area in front of the rear nearside wheel Towards the nearside vent and not from it. The airflow is more likely to come from under the car and from the wheel movement. As it is behind the plastic shield in that area it too is protected from the much thrown up by the wheel. Have done some more comparison testing and confirmed the 10 to 12 degree C temp range reductions to the intake temp afforded by the original subframe mounted intake position.

Rog
Roger Parker

The filter has come, and is installed, a lovely K&N panel filter. i managed to get it in on my own, using just a screwdriver. did have a slight problem cos there isn't enough room to get the lid of the filter box out from the engine bay once the clips are undone (i guess you are meant to move the whole box so it can come out, butthats not my style) i mangedto squeeze the old filter out and it was easy getting the new one in (cos its so much shallower). clip it all up, re atch the pipe and its done.

driven about 200 miles with it, and i'm very happy. There is a slight change in noise, which is nice and performance wise, there might be a very slight improvement in straight line acceleration, it certainly hasn't slowed it. but the big improvement is the difference in characteristics around 3 - 4000 rpm. the torque dip that i didn't realy realisewas there has gone, cos i know it was there now that its not, if you know what i mean.

its cut my use of 2nd gear on quick bendy roads a huge amount, it seems a lot less gutless.

It has to be thebest £30 i have ever spent, and i recommend that every tom dick and harry gets one for their car. even if you don't notice any improevment, its £30 for a filter that will filter better and last forever, so you still don't loose.

Its a winner.

A quick question for the 57i people.looking at the torque curves for cone filters, why is there a big torque dip at low revs, and is this noticable.

Another question, why does a cone filter work so much beter than a panel filter

cheers everybody, and go get your panel filter changed
Matt

"Another question, why does a cone filter work so much beter than a panel filter"


Who told you that ....???
You surely got the wrong info....

Bruno Valadas

well, a 57i is a cone filter and seems to make the car go quicker than a panel filter!
Matt Lawrance

Hi,

Had the car to bits again last night to put the intake pipe back to the side. Checked the filter, and oh yes it was very dirty. I turned it upside down and out fell some small stones, grit, flies and even a small rather adjitated vagrant ;-).

Rog, scoop=bad idea, absolutely correct.

I had a go at taking out the resonance chamber at the same time and thought it would be a case of whipping it out under the wheel arch. Rog, did you remove yours or is it still in situ. It looks like you've either got to cut off the protusions or take out most of the engine to get to it???

Nick
Nick

>>A quick question for the 57i people.looking at the torque curves for cone filters, why is there a big torque dip at low revs, and is this noticable.<<

This is evident at the same engine speeds with the standard filter interestingly, but that is a red herring. The cone filters are a victim of their high rpm breathing capacity, which will rob low end torque- and the dip here is likely to be turbulent air flow in an around the filter and throttle body.

>>Another question, why does a cone filter work so much beter than a panel filter<<

The panel filter figures we recorded are with an entirely standard air intake system with all its restrictions. Rog and Nick's systems ditch this clumsy (by low end torque benefiting) pipe work, and they are sure to see far better power gains as a result. Otherwise, a filter is a filter is a filter, no matter what shape they have been moulded into.

For my cone system, I am planning some mods, but I want to ensure as high a pressure intake as possible, which means some more experiments. Needless to say, you guys will be the first to hear of any progress!

Nick, I am not so sure that a scoop is so bad an idea- just so long as there is a pre-chamber that will slow the air flow a bit before reaching the filter to allow debris (and hapless tramps) to fall from the air stream.

Rob
Rob Bell

This thread was discussed between 25/05/2000 and 09/06/2000

MG MGF Technical index

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