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MG MGF Technical - Induction Help
| I have just been informed by my insurance company that I can put an air induction mod on my car without any extra cost...excellent... So the question is what do I go for to achieve the best results.. MeMo |
| MeMo |
| I would be intrested to know who you are insured with as i am with Direct Line,and have just put on a Mike Satur exhaust and my premium has gone up by £150.00 for the year !! No doubt you will be plesed to know that i am now looking for a new insurance company ! |
| paul |
| I'm with StPaul. They have a product for high performance cars. My policy is in Ireland so I don't know if they operate in the uk but could be worth investigating. BTW I'm paying 1270 approx sterling as an Irish driver with a full no claims bonus at the ripe old age of 31. I bet your not paying that in the uk. For that price they should allow me to put rocket fuel in the car and not blink an eye lid!! |
| MeMo |
| Paul,Peart & Co make no additional charge on my policy for induction or exhaust mods, they simply increase my excessby £150 should I make a claim. As for the best route you should look through the archives for info on filters.I have tried the K&Ni kit with good results but am just about to upgrade to a Viper 2 when Mike get's one in stock. The viper is similar to the maxogen ie they are both enclosed so should give more cold air and power.MG world magazine ran a comparison test a few year back,it may be worth getting hold of a back copy. |
| terry |
| Memo Try Robs site, its got the tests results on the rolling road, but are a bit out of date. I'm sure others will let you know how the K&N compares to Maxogen and Viper. Rob also did a homemade airbox as well Cheers DJ |
| DJ |
| oops forgot the link http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/ DJ |
| DJ |
| Testing the Viper and the Maxogen are definitely on the 'to do' list, because you are quite right DJ, the listings are now somewhat out of date. Both the Viper and Maxogen should go better than the K&N 57i - you get what you pay for... |
| Rob Bell |
| Ouch. That's expensive for insurance. IIRC, mine was £540 (1.8VVC, 27 yr old in Edinburgh) PTP's kit? http://www.powertrainprojects.co.uk/viewPartDetails.asp There's also the Hurricane, though you'd need to get them to do a 'one off' for you: Tuning Concept: http://www.tuningconcept.nl/eng-hurricane.htm Leigh |
| L Reid |
| MeMo, All depends on which model you have: The Trophy 160 and TF have different (more efficient) air filter assemblies making some of the options available less effective (or even not at all!) Assuming you have an F (1.8 or VVC) then you should be thinking along the lines of: K+N 57i Piper Viper ITG Maxogen Could also consider a normal Piper X or ITG or Ram Air, but the above list should give a better performance. If you have a TF or a Trophy 160, then only the Piper Viper and ITG Maxogen are an advance over the standard induction set up. HTH SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| Can anyone remember which MGW issue ran the article? I understand that the K&N has a different filter design compared to ITG but I don't know what the PiperX uses as its filter media? We don't have too many F's here in Canberra especially modified ones, so it's kinda hard to get any info on which air filter suits the better. Does it make any difference? For my money (and yes Rob, I know I get what I pay for - LOL)I'm looking for some improved performance with some (not a lot) of induction roar, something that adds some picquancy to the enjoyment and fulfilment of driving my beloved F (sorry, if I'm dribbling). I'm looking for ease of fitment - I don't want to be spending days mucking around, twisting and contorting trying to get the damn thing on. Finally, I'm looking for longevity of the filter system and ease of maintenance. That said, can anyone suggest what are the main differences between the ITG and the PiperX? The K&N I know, but I know less about the other 2. For info, I'm driving a '99 F (75th LE 1.8MPI). Thanks heaps guys. Philsie |
| Phil |
| Thanks a million for the input everyone. I'm thinking of maybe going for the K+N 57i. It seems to be the filter of choice.. .. not too expensive. I have a 96 1.8i F, what sort of improvement would i expect to get? |
| MeMO |
| Has any one got instructions on how to fit a K+N to an MGF? |
| MeMo |
| Memo http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/ Robs site has them (as do loads of others - most variations on the same tune) under DIY - Filters It is dead easy and although budget abour an 1hour, it actually took me about 30-40 mins. It was the first time I'd been into the engine bay and its all very self explanatory so don't worry on getting tied in knots - you won't. Just make sure you have extra cableties as it the kit doesn't come with enough - Halfords do some extra long ones Good luck and this is the first step down the road of upgradeitis DJ |
| DJ |
| Do get everything you need in the kit or do you have to buy extra pipes and stuff? |
| MeMo |
| Memo You will get everything if you order the 57i induction kit specifically for the MGF from someone like B&G (linked on homepage of this site). I got it from them in 48hours and cost, I think, £100 including postage. Just remember to get some cable ties otherwise you will kick yourself halfway through the job as there aren't enough in the kit to do the best job. Have fun DJ |
| DJ |
| O! My God! I just got the K+N fitted.. What a sound!!... I can't wait to get on the open road later. When i started the engine first a gave it some revs I was disappointed, but then i started to drive and the sound just blew me away, very sweet. I haven't really noticed any power gain yet though. Maybe I need to be driving at the top end? Thanks for the help. MeMo |
| MeMo |
| Memo Now there's the typical reaction LOL :o) If you've got a 1.8 you get approx 8BHP and a VVC 15BHP, so how noticeable depends on the model. Top end is definately where you notice it from 4000 rpm upwards as its helping the engine to get more oxygen and burn the fuel more efficiently. Next you'll be talking to a certain Mike Satur and buying an exhaust and then it gets even better!!! Have fun DJ |
| DJ |
| What difference will a KN57i make to a TF160, any power or just the noise? Matt |
| M D Walton |
| Hi Matt, Saddly it will just be noise. But even so I keep thinking of putting one back on just for that alone. In fact I was out on Monday doing a drive back from my Parents (aggh!) and my GF commented that the new TF (a 160) was much slower than the old F (a VVC with K&N) the fact that we were slightly (coughs a bit) over the speed limit didn't seem to affect her. But it turned out it was the K&N sound (I can't call it a Noise) that she missed. Paul P.S. I did "open" it up a bit at that point to show it was not the case and can say that the 160 is very stable at speed (0nly to 70 officer), in fact was better than the F with KH splitter and correct toe in. |
| Paul |
| MeMo, >> I have a 96 1.8i F, what sort of improvement would i expect to get? << + 8 bhp on a 1.8 MPi Plus lovely induction roar! :-) Glad you are happy (hate to say 'i told you so!') ;-) --------------- Phil wrote: >> That said, can anyone suggest what are the main differences between the ITG and the PiperX? The K&N I know, but I know less about the other 2. << I'm bound to miss some options here, but here goes... Panel filters: K+N do a panel filter for the standard air box Cone filters: Piper X do a foam cone filter that attaches directly to the throttle body - very loud, not the best attachment method as it can produce a turbulent air flow. ITG also do a cone filter, this has a 90 degree connection pipe (with an internal taper) that effectively speeds the air up, drawing it in through the filter. The length of connection pipe also quietens the induction roar somewhat. K+N do a paper cone filter on a 45 degree connection pipe, this is a 'compromise' between air flow characteristics and induction noise. This filter sounds great. K+N do a 57i kit which is basically the paper cone filter described above plus a pair of cold air induction hoses that duct cold air from outside the engine bay straight to the filter. Cold air is denser, therefore contains more oxygen which equals more power. Ram air do something similar to the 57i but with thier foam filter - this is very expensive though and although is just as effective as the K+N 57i, is less value for money. Induction chambers: Piper X do a 'Piper Viper' which is a carbon fibre casing around thier foam cone filter with an induction hose from outside the engine bay and a 90 degree connection pipe to the throttle body. As the filter is effectively isolated from the red hot ambient air within the engine bay this filter is 'the next step' up from the K+N 57i - remember cold air = denser = more oxygen = more power. ITG do a cold air induction chamber called the 'Maxogen' for thier foam filter. This works on a similar principal to the Piper Viper except the chamber has a conical induction entry, this speeds up the air flow, 'sucking' it in like a hoover, this is 'the next step' up from a Piper Viper - but is very expensive. There is also the Hurricane - these are effectively 'one offs' and i know very little about them except they are similar in principle and design to the Piper Viper. ----------------- Matt wrote: >> What difference will a KN57i make to a TF160, any power or just the noise? << Just noise i'm afraid. The TF 160 uses a development of the Trophy 160 spec engine including the revised air intake. This is where a significant proportion of the extra 15 horses come from - a K+N 57i is worth + 15 bhp on a VVC or the difference between a VVC and the Trophy 160. I suspect that there will be a marginal power increase at points on the rev range, but have no data on this as it has not been independantly tested. To see any benefit you really need to go to the next level and that is a Piper Viper, Hurricane or ITG Maxogen. Note, these also have yet to be independantly tested, but are theoretical developments on the K+N 57i principle. HTH SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| SF, thanks buddy much obliged for the advice - for a while there, I didn't think anyone was going to offer any info. I may be wrong here but I thought Rob Bell was going to install an ITG on his car. If true, has anyone heard from Rob how the installation is progressing? Cheers, Phil |
| Phil |
| While checking out the job the mechanic did on the filter I noticed he didn't put the pipes on and didn't remove all of the old air box (the bottom part is left which the K+N is resting on). Will this effect the gains I'm supposed to be getting from this? |
| MeMo |
| Hi Phil, no I'm not currently planning an ITG Maxogen - SF has done this though. I thought I'd try something different with a Rover 820 air box. Missing one bit (I think I'm going to need to fabricate this myself... hence the delay). |
| Rob Bell |
| MeMo, Yes you won't get the full benefit if the induction pipes are not fitted. In this situation you are exclusively drawing hot air from the top of the engine bay. The purpose of the induction pipes is to provide the filter with a cold air supply, cold air = denser = contains more oxygen = more power during combustion. The filter medium itself is a lot more efficient than standard and the route the air takes to enter the engine is a lot less torturous wiht the K+N fitted so you will experience some improvement, it's just that potentially there is more to be had very easily. --------------- Phil, I have (as Rob says) the ITG Maxogen, this was a replacement for the standard ITG foam filter and i am very pleased with the results. However, at the same time as fitting the Maxogen i also had a Stage 1 gas flowed head conversion so how much of the improved performance is due to the filter i don't know. I am working on a generic cold air induction chamber at the moment (it is currently being 'prototyped'). The idea being that a cold air box that fits any of the cone filters would improve thier performance by isolating them from the hot engine bay air and would be cheaper than the ITG as the purchaser would already have a Piper X / K+N / ITG filter. More news as and when... SF |
| SF |
| Thanks I'll have a go fixing pipes tomorrow..GF dragging me to pub tonight.. must play with car tomorrow. Whats involved in getting the car chiped. Would i need to upgrade the head gasket and dowels? I don't know if they've been done already. |
| MeMo |
| >Whats involved in getting the car chiped. http://members.aol.com/emeraldm3d/ although you won't get any benifits without other work (like diffrent cams/head work etc.) |
| Will Munns |
| I changed from a K&N to an ITG maxogen, The ITG does not nake as much noise as the K&N and fuel economy is about the same. When changing to the ITG i also installed the Trophy Throttle body, these 2 items combined make quite a difference to the speed the car picks up with, it seems to rev to the red line much more readily. If you've got a K&N i would highly reccomend one of Tom's brackets, i don't know if he still makes them (or has any) but i've got one spare from my old k&n Kingsley /only expensive mods left |
| Kingsley |
| Rob & SF - Thanks guys. Does anyone know what the MGF racers are using on their car? I was talking to a guy in Sydney who is the distribuote for the pipercross viper and he told me that the guys racing mgf's here are using a piper pod kit. Has anyone heard of this? Kingsley - You said that the ITG Maxogen doesn't make as much noise as the K&N. I guess it's still 'noisier' than the standard setup on a non-VVC F? If I went for the Maxogen, would I still get some induction roar? Phil |
| Phil |
| Maxogen has a nice deep note to it, but is not (quite) as loud as the K+N or IMO as 'raw'. It is a more refined sound. Bloody difficult describing noises on this BBS, no one ever understands what you mean... MGF Cup cars have a completely different induction system, multiple throttle bodies, revised boot lid and a HUGE foam filter to cover all four inlets that eats into the top of the boot space and draws air directly from just above the bootlid. It's a mental bit of kit, but the one i saw (at Spa on Treffen 2000) was an ITG set up, which makes sense because ITG were the air filter suppliers to Roversport (my original ITG cone filter came from Roversport). Dieter has some excellent photographs taken on the day, i am sure he will be along in a moment with links to them... :-) SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| Ill get it for the noise alone then! ;-) Thanks for info Matt |
| M D Walton |
| Interesting discovery - did you know that the MTBs found on the VHPD 190 engine found in the cup cars are the same as the TBs used on the KV6? Might prove to be a cheap source of TBs in the years to come... ;o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Hurricane in my 96' VVC ... http://uk.geocities.com/gvrawlins/index.html Gaz |
| Gaz R |
| Guys watch out for a new Pipercross kit out soon called the Evolution, this caters for power above 160BHP it does fit in the F engine bay as MS has a prototype one shoehorned into his TF for evaluation.HTH. Paul. |
| Paul |
| Having one myself your description sounds spot on SF. you can buy the direct to head multi throttle assembly from http://www.ptp-ltd.co.uk I think it's only for use on thier 190BHP VHPD engine. |
| Kingsley |
| A friend had multiple throttle bodies on his 1.8Mpi, hmmm, 5 years ago IIRC. Was rolling road tested and was putting out in the region of 180bhp. He had a Motobuild exhaust and some hot cams too, but basically the extra 60 bhp came from the trhttle bodies and engine management system. As an aside, we (Essex Club MGF as we were then) were overtaken by Stephen Palmer's green Cheetah on the way out of Brands Hatch in 1998, he booted it and we tried to keep up, i bottled it at three figures, apparently the 1.8 Mpi with throttle bodies was still behind the cheetah at 140mph, when a hysterical passenger finally made him slow down!!!!!! SF |
| SF |
| I removed the rest of the old airbox yesterday and fitted the two new air pipes. I noticed two things:- 1. The induction noise, which was a roar, is now a lot more polite. The old airbox must have been amplifying the sound when the K+N was sitting on it. Shame really, I thought it sounded much better. On Saturday, before I removed the old airbox I was travelling on some quite back roads when I ended up getting stuck behind some slow moving traffic. When I had my chance to overtake I dropped gear into second and floored it. The driver I passed had no idea I was behind them, they nearly drove off the road with the fright as I passed them. 2. The real kick comes around 3000, 3500 revs. I'm not sure if I have the pipes in the best place. Anybody got ideas on this? MeMo |
| MeMo |
| Hi guys, As the tropy air box arrangement is more efficient than that of the standard 'F', has anyone tried fitting the tropy air box arrangement to the standard 'F'? I would imagine the parts wouldn't be too expensive from a breakers? Leigh |
| L Reid |
| >I would imagine the parts wouldn't be too expensive from a breakers? Possibly not, but finding one at the breakers is probably another thing. IMO the better option would still be a K&N as an all-round upgrade in this area for the F. |
| Paul Lathwell |
| Well K&N is now fitted to TF160. Really easy to do, honest and the noise is wonderfull. As has been previously stated power feels about the same but throttle response is much cleaner. Now going to drive everywhere at 3/4 throttle to enjoy noise!! Matt |
| M D Walton |
| Matt wrote: >> Now going to drive everywhere at 3/4 throttle to enjoy noise!! << Nice one. :-) --------- MeMo wrote: >> I'm not sure if I have the pipes in the best place. Anybody got ideas on this? << I assume you have them positioned in line with the K+N instructions? If so then they should be cable tied together, pointing either towards the front of the car (ideally) or off to the passenger side (more likely) and are attached to one of the Hydragas pipes. If the above rings true then you have them positioned correctly (regardless of how untidy they may look). The route should be: Pipes cable tied together top and bottom. Top is cable tied to the copper breather pipes ont he top of the petrol tank, pipes angled towards the filter maintaining an approximate 4" (100mm) gap (to prevent water from puddles soaking the filter). Pipes extend directly downwards and out through the underside of the car next to the subframe (you need to remove the hard plastic 90 degree pipe into the resonance box to open up a large enough gap). Under the car they turn through 90 degress and attach to the left hand Hydragas pipe, pointing roughly towards the front of the car. IMO, the pipes are vulnerable to damage here and can look a little untidy. Tom Randal (used to?) make a small aluminium bracket that hooks over the subframe to carry the end of the K+N pipes. This relocates them to ensure they point forwards (thus getting the full 'ram air' effect) and also moving them up a little making them less susceptable to damage. A nice bit of kit. I have photos of one i installed at an Essex Roadsters meeting if anyone is interested. Send me an Email. SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| Just been doing more random driving enjoying noise! Think power may be slightly increased also. Have just driven a few of my favourite roads and used brakes far more than usual ;-) Would be interested in seeing a pic with the bracket as mine are sort of dangling at the mo. Was going to get something made at work. Kingsley you have mail regarding said bracket Cheers Matt |
| M D Walton |
| Just had another thought. Does anyone know where i can purchase pipe ducting like K&N use. Wondered if a single large pipe or an oval pipe may be neater/more effective. Possibly also with the addition of a webber trumpet on the end to help air flow................ Any thoughts............ Matt |
| M D Walton |
| Matt, You've got mail. :-) Your thoughts regarding the pipes are valid, but you need to bear in mind the size of the opening next to the subframe as this will restrict your diameter (my Maxogen pipe is 100mm and it doesn't quite fit through here). Another thought is to remove the resonance box a la TF. Quite tricky due to it's location and the fuel pump being sited on top of it, but if done then the engine bay amient temperature should be noticably less, making the K+N more efficient. The downside is that you will probably need to clean it more often as more road grime will enter the engine bay. Food for thought... SF |
| Scarlet Fever |
| Scarlet, Thanks for info. Shall definately try a few things over next few weeks. Trying to find bloody demon tweeks mag..... Ill post if i get anything to work ;-) Matt |
| M D Walton |
| Very interesting thread guys. I just fitted a Maxogen air filter system to my Trophy 160 (recommended by Mike Satur as he had no Piper systems and the new one isn't available yet). Anyway if anyone has a use for the parts removed from my car let me know. They've only been on the car for 12,000 miles and I hate throwing out good parts. All I'd need in return would be the cost of postage. Regards to you all. KEN PLEASE NOTE new email address is solentpcservices@aol.com (not as shown). |
| KENNETH JAMES MATTHEWS |
| Well I've done a good long run (200 mile round trip - cross country and motorway)with the ITG Maxogen system now fitted on my Trophy and I have to say that the noise "aspect" is very pleasing. Not as raw as the K&N cone filter system, but a lovely low-down growl from about 3,000 rpm upwards. Fitting wasn't exactly difficult for those who want to try this option, however do be aware that the instructions tell you to retain the two bolts that used to hold the original airbox for use in retaining the ITG airbox mounting plate. Well the original isn't held with bolts (plastic studs instead fitting through rubber grommets) so you're going to need a couple of bolts and washers from the odds-'n'-sods tin/jar/box. The only thing I'm not sure of now is whether the cold air inlet pipe would be better getting it's air from the side vent rather than from under the car (i.e. down the gap left by removal of the original airbox). Has anyone any ideas or suggestions? Ken (new email solentpcservices@aol.com) |
| KENNETH JAMES MATTHEWS |
| Have a look at Robs "Rover 820 airbox" thread for some suggestions. |
| Dot |
This thread was discussed between 13/08/2002 and 02/09/2002
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