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MG MGF Technical MGF IS KNACKERED (ADVICE PLEASE) BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG MGF Technical - MGF IS KNACKERED (ADVICE PLEASE)
| Hi all, for those who i see at the local north west meet will know that i,ve been losing some water for a while. The f has been in for its mot and service and when i picked it up i was told that it is a new engine job. When they changed the oil there was water in the sump.They tested the head gasket (some fluid test or something) not a presure test and they said that it looked fine. They gave it two oil changes and put some rad weld in and told me i may get a little time out of what was a tempory repair. 4 MILES home and all the oil is mayo and the water level down. Did not over heat.The guys said they thought it could be the land area at the bottom of piston liners as the head gasket test was ok. It was a lot to take in so i think i,ve got the story right .Anyway its home now and i darn,t start the engine . They said that if it is what they suspect (the land area at the bottom of the piston liners) that it may not be worth opening up the engine only to confirm ther suspisions . A do you think it can be fixed or is it deffo a new engine? B Any suggustion ? What would any of you guys and girls do in my shoes? At the moment my 1997 r reg mgf is worth at best £3,000 with all the mods chrome leather etc etc..i can,t help thinking it would be worth more in bits. The head gasket was only done 3 years ago (10,000). Any comments greatfully recieved Thanks Mel. |
| m e johnson |
| I always thought RADWELD was a bad idea on an F, due to the small diameters of soe of the pipes (or maybe the rad fins-dunno). Water clearly should not be in the sump and indeed id it was in the oil, then explains why you have mayo. At least it did not overheat. I ama fraid I have no idea about the "land area at bottom of piston liners". What about the water pump? I had mayo and oil in coolant once and the MG garage pressure tested it and vaccum tested it and said it was fine!!!!! A few weke slater I got a nice HGF and it was apparently the water pump at fault. |
| I Brown |
| I Brown, thanks for the input. I know very little about engines and i don,t want to do anything rash!!! I,m hoping that things might not be as bad as the garage says but i am expecting the worst. Thanks for the water pump idea. I,ve just had another look and the dipstick is just thin mayo. Nothing in the bottle just an inch of water left. The oil has that much water in it in four miles it is like milk. When i took it in the garage it had to be topped up with water, and there was a little mayo but nothing like this. If the water pump was on its way out would it not show an external leak? |
| m e johnson |
| I Brown, thanks for the input. I know very little about engines and i don,t want to do anything rash!!! I,m hoping that things might not be as bad as the garage says but i am expecting the worst. Thanks for the water pump idea. I,ve just had another look and the dipstick is just thin mayo. Nothing in the bottle just an inch of water left. The oil has that much water in it in four miles it is like milk. When i took it in the garage it had to be topped up with water, and there was a little mayo but nothing like this. If the water pump was on its way out would it not show an external leak? Cheers Mel |
| m e johnson |
| “…and put some rad weld in” That fills you with a (not a) lot of confidence in them knowing what they are doing! It sounds like a HGF but I can’t see at this point why it needs a new engine without more investigation? I would seek a second opinion. |
| C Tideswell |
| C Tideswell.. Thanks for the input....."... and put some rad weld in" .. My thoughts as well on the second opinion, but i wanted to hear it from someone else!!! It is a well respected Garage i use and have serviced/repaired our cars for years .....but as most mgf owners say these are a car to be maintained by a specialist who understands them and there faults and probably not at a local "service/maintain garage". The local Garage i use was more than happy i make my own enquire,s and they will do any work/ help if they can. I did only take it in for a service and mot and they was chucked in in the deep end , being booked up untill the second week in september and fitting me in and me mentioning the water leak at the last minute and then them getting stuck with this problem when they changed the oil realised it was a mess!! There opinion on the "LAND AREA AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PISTON LINERS" Which they say they believe to be the problem stated is there opinion on what work they have done in the past on other cars . The GUYS don,t claim to be Mgf specialists . I really don,t know where to go from here . The stella artois is doing nothing apart from making my typing worst than usuaul!!! Is this colur test they did to detect the hgf reliable??? From reading the archives the presure test is also not 100% Now its full of mayo,i know i can,t start it so how woul;d i get a scond opinoin???? Stella no all gone so i,m on the winne. Tpttallyy Pisssed off NOW |
| m e johnson |
| Theres no way they could tell the diffrence between the land area goo and the head gasket. the goo only dies if the engine gets rotated with the head off - do they know more than you do about three years ago? |
| Will Munns |
| Hi ,Will, Thanks for the reply. No the garage know no more about the history of the car than i do. I have had the car for nearly three years with the porevious owner having the problem,s of the hgf replacement(reciepts i have). Any more advice would be appreicaated . Thanks Will.. ps .please ignore my typing as it is 1pm and i have had one to many!! It went from a small water loss...to i must ask why at the mot/service garage to complete mayo job within 20 miles.?? many thanks Will .. Where do you think i should go from here (apart from a more recommended garage!!) Thanks Mel.. |
| m e johnson |
| Sorry , should have said that this garage that diagnosed the possible cause , has only ever done the service and mot for me and i have the service history of the car for the previous HGF and repair from another garage . Not that i am blaming anyone for any of this i,m just after the best solution!! Thanks Mel.. PS..i can post the invoice for the previus work as that will help you guys. I,ll post it tommorrow evening.. Thanks Again MEL.. |
| m e johnson |
| they may have pressure tested it and overloaded the seals (which were already broken slighly), or it may have overheated on the bench and all the seals are now getting worse quickly, or it just might have happened like that. The HG seperates several things: 1:Combustion under very high pressure 2:High pressure oil to the head 3:The outside world at no pressure 4:negative pressure oil drain down from the head (down the head bolts) 5:coolant under slight pressure the test kit they use will show HC's in the water due to a leak between coolant and higher pressure items, but if the leak is around the head bolt chambers (i.e. 5-4) then you will only get water in the oil. The goo holds the bottom of the cylinder liners in place and seals the water from the negative pressure sump, so a failure here looks simmiler to a 5-4 HG failure. By the way, I have only seen two goo failures here in the past 5 years, perhaps thats because people keep changing gaskets futily, or perhaps it just very rare? |
| Will Munns |
| Hi again ,the garage that has just looked at the car did not pressure test,just did the die thing. If i take it somewhere else i wonder if i would be wasting money on a new gasket only to be told part way through that it is this land area and then i will need a new engine anyway. |
| m e johnson |
| Have you had a word with Mike Satur? If you have recovery you could get it trailered there. I suppose it all depends on if you want to spend more money on the car, at the moment it wouldn't give you much back so you have to decide which way to go. The MGF centre could re-engine it for you, previous costs seem to be about 1.5-2k I seem to remember but that may be tosh. Bad luck mate, hope you can get it sorted. |
| Tony |
| Yup, it _could_ be the goo, the symptoms match, but then the symptoms also match HGF which is FAR more common, and with the exception of pulling the sump and spotting the leak (no gaurantee) there is almost no way of telling without pulling the head and inspecting the gasket. |
| Will Munns |
| Mel, You have my sympathy. I had cam belt go (didn't realise at time) pulled over and tried to start engine, as it just died. Little did I know that was just slamming more pistons against valves ! I had same dilema, repair or ditch. I had some money, decided that rest of car was good and although old, had passed MOT Thought it was worth repair, as I would keep car for next 3 years or so. Bad bad decision. Paid out money, car repaired and year later died, and failed the next MOT, would have been better selling parts and taking repair money to buy another. I'm sorry, but with new mgtf at £10,000 (see previous stuff on whats an MG worth) you are looking at more like 2K, for yours, and once you have spent in excess of £700 you won't get that back. Its off to the internet to find cheap loans and buy that new TF for 10K using the money you would have spent on the fix and the dosh from the repairs and with the PRT and AA warranty you are back on the raod with a lovely new TF, and years before it lets go, even if it does the AA warranty will cover the cost. Sorry, but been there, spend the money, wish I had it back. How the real dilemm is if your car is worth 5K, then should you repair or give up ? Dave |
| Dave |
| but in 4 years the TF will be worth 4k, and you will have lost 6k in depreciation, 1.5k a year gauranteed - pay your money take your choice, if a new car makes you feel special then do it... personally an old car makes me feel special for excatly the opposite reason - I make it live |
| Will Munns |
| Hi, thanks all your comments make sense. I called at the garage today to discuss further(my mgf is at home in my garage now not at the garage). What they are saying is that how they see it these are my options.. A..Take the head off and see if it is the gasket, the problem being that they can not always see if it is this that has blown and the pointers are already looking at the worst and there gut feeling it is the land area as water is going straiht to the sump. B..DO the above and if it does not show up on the gasket take the engine out and confirm it is the land area and the engine is scrap . C..Take the engine staight out srip it and see if it is this and then if it,s not they should have just done the gasket. D..put a new engine in (been quoted 650.00 for one with 3 months warranty) plus the garages labour .I would be supplying the engine and them just fittig . E.My idea...scrap the mgf and sell all the best bits on flea bay and put it down to experience. I,m with will on the would like to keep my old one going , but i don,t want to be throwing stupid money at it. I,ll have to make a decision at some stage or it will just be stuck in the garage collecting dust. For the amount of use this second car gets it would not make sense buying a new tf at 10,000 but i can see Daves point , it would make sense for some one who would use it more. Thanks again i,ll keep you posted on the outcome. PS..if i go for the second hand engine i,m sorry but i will have to bombard you guys with a load of questions..!!! any other comments appreciated Mel... |
| m e johnson |
| nothing can be assesed untill heads off be brave do this your self slowly. was she skimed [head] |
| r.f.j. griffiths |
| Hi, the head was skimmed when the H G went 3 years ago from reading the service history. Approx 2 months before i bought it. The guys at the garage said that it may not be possible to see if it has blown, even with the head off . I suppose i,ve not got a lot to lose if i tried this approach(have a look myself) but i really am a mechanical numty!! I think i am leaning towards throwing some money at it and letting them take the head off for a look. If they did see it was obviouly the gasket i,d be a lot happier than a new engine job. The mgf did pass it,s MOT with flying colours so it is road legal for another 12 months !!! pity they serviced it after the mot test ,or should i say tried to service it. Cheers Mel.. |
| m e johnson |
| Mel. Am gutted for you!! :o( I know you said you were loosing a little coolant but thought is was the usual expansion cap or leaking rad screw as the HG and coolant pipes were allready done. Have to say I have never heard of the liner goo failure.... must be quite a rare one!. If it were me (but its not, I know!) I would be tempted to go for another engine, even if it did turn out to be the HG that has failed on yours, as the head has allready been skimmed it may not be able to take another one so you would need a new cyl head at least anyway!. I know you have spent at lot of time and money on the car so you are well into negative equity anyway and no matter which option you choose you will be out of pocket!... Maybe a case of "Better the Devil you know"...:o/ |
| G. M Leonard |
| Bad news, Mel. I can appreciate your dilemma,there's pro's and con's for A, B, C, D and E. Your decision, but you are looking at worst case scenario, it could be as simple as the head gasket, don't write it off yet. After the time and money you've spent on it, if it was me, I'd risk the cost of having the head lifted. Just my view FWIW, best of luck! |
| roy bridge |
| Hi, Mark I was going to email you over the weekend to ask your opinion on what you would do in my shoes!! Its come as a real shock this lot and as you know i,ve had no trouble with the car in three years and all the money i,ve spent has gone on basic maintenace and upgrades. The wife says its dragging all the chrome bits around thats caused this with all the extra weight!! I know what you mean about being in negative equity already and i didn,t as you know buy the car exspecting it to be a future classic and hold it,s value!!! At the moment i just can,t decide what to do. It seems to good to scrap but i,m sure i could get £1,500 for most of the new parts hood, ss exhaust, leather interior etc.. call it a day on this one and get a newer tf like yours.....but all the work i,ve put in and i love the car, i don,t know weather i could bring myself to scrap it. A new engine BRAND NEW is over 2,500 from mgoc and this is not fitted. A second hand one would be my only option. The local garage seem to think (although they don,t want to sway my choice) a replacement engine would may be cheaper in the long run rather than a strip down only to find what they suspect. The weird thing is that it is not over heating just water straight into the sump. If it,s ok when i get some more info on engines etc i,ll email you for your opinion ( if it all go,s tits up i won,t blame you!!!) Cheers mate PS please still let me know when the next meet is i,ll get a lift there (:0 )))) |
| m e johnson |
| Hi Roy Thanks for that mate, as you say it may be worth getting the head off for a look and if they see it has blown it will be a lot less dosh to fork out. 600.00 OR so for repairs is what i had resigned myself for being a mgf owners not a new engine!! I thought that if it had blown it would be obvious but apparently not. Putting you on the spot hear Roy ;o))..if they took the head off and they could not say for deffo it was the hg would you then go one stage further and let them dismantle down to the land area only to confirm that they were right and it,s now scrap...or oh dear the land area is all fine , it must be the Hg after all......... I know it,s all down to me in the end and i,m only curiuos on what others would do.( will only blame Rover if i make the wrong choice!!) Cheers Mel ( and his dead mgf ) |
| m e johnson |
Mel. Will let you know about next meet!. Also could you mail me....... montpelier at fs mail dot net ;o) |
| G. M Leonard |
| Mel I'm no expert but I would have thought with the head off, if the gasket is kaput, it can't be that difficult to spot. If there was any doubts you could take the Head and gasket to an MGR specialist for an opinion. What about Mark's ex MGR mates at Widnes? If you want to be pessimistic, it could be a cracked block or head, so get the bloody thing off or you'll be in perpetual limbo (:)) |
| roy bridge |
| Don't do it ! Its like deja vu ? mechanic said exactly that "What do you want me to do, I need to take the head off to confirm what the problem is, but this will cost you for my work. I forked out, and when you send a bit you keep on spending, as he said "Yep suspicions confirmed, so now I need more dosh for X, Y, Z" So having spend some to have head off I spent more. I'm sorry but don't ! Take your money and sell the parts. It's goddam awlful but you are stuck, and I'd advise on a 2K car you have lost your money, get some back from spares. I wish I had ! I take Wills point, and thats really really brillinat for somone who loves the older MG, and has a great deal of mechanical experience and wants to "look after" the car for the next 10 years. You don't ! You need a relaible 2 seater that you can stick the roof down, is young enough not to go wrong, ad you can have fun. Don't go for a new TF go for a 2002 TF less money less depreciation, or god forbid an MX Dave |
| dave |
| Mel, There’s a guy who works near me who recently wrote off his ’97 vvc, I’ll find out for you whether he still either: has it, or knows where it is, he offered me his engine when my head went a couple of weeks ago. I didn’t follow it up as I’ve got a 2001 Mpi. But it might offer an acceptable solution Mike Ps keep intending to make the meets at the Hollow Tree but haven’t managed it yet. i've copied this to your ntl address with my contact details |
| mike roberts |
| I didn't have any experence when I started playing with cars |
| Will Munns |
| In fact my first real mechanical play with an engine was a total strip down of a k to take the crank out (part of this job includes a change of head gasket) |
| Will Munns |
| Ony warning is that a "new", probably just different, engine for £650 could be another HGF in waiting in you don't know the history of the engine. If the head comes off at least you can find out what is really the matter. If the liners & block are ok, even with a second hand good head to buy that might be a better option as the labour cost should be less. This HGF is a real problem though! |
| Derrick Rowe |
| Thanks you Guys , i,ve never been good at making decisions , no easy way here i feel .I don,t mind spending on the car but can,t help thinking that the next hgf would be just around the corner.I think i may get the head taken off and see if it looks like the gasket and if they can,t confirm this i will probably scrap the car, and sell the bits.I really don,t wan,t to do this but i,m not a rich guy and have family commitments and throwing what might be a unknown amount of money at a 1997 car seems silly. If i could get a firm price for a good job on getting the f back on the road after spending 200.00 or 300.00 on getting a proper diagnosis i,d go ahead with the work but the mgf being what it is a "mgf" with a history of hgf failures the next hgf might be just around the corner. Shouldn,t think like this i know but if it happens to you ( god forbib!) i,m sure you would think the same. I,ll keep you all posted on the outcome and many thanks for the input guys much appreciated. Mel. |
| m e johnson |
This thread was discussed between 23/08/2006 and 26/08/2006
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