MG-Cars.com
MG MGF Technical Poured lots of coolant *on* the Alps :( BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
MG-Cars.net
Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.
Recommendations
Parts
MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.
|
|
MG MGF Technical - Poured lots of coolant *on* the Alps :(
| Hi all, just got back from one a week trip to the Alps. btw, it was a great event. Regards from Tony T. and Paul W. and all the other who took part. :) However, it happend to my MGF just at the first day, when we went over the 2.200m Penser Joch. (Alps pass) A hot ride :) Oil temperature went up to 120° and when I stopped on the car park.... lots of steam, bad smell. Oh, yes, why me, why now, why at such mad location ;) http://www.nc-online.de/pics/mg/album_kaltern/photos/photo_149.html (pictures from Klaus) Coolant boiled like mad in the expansion tank and poured down to the ground. The front fan didn't work !!! Anyway, the full story would be to long at this place. With kind help of Tony who was cool analysing, we got it finally. The 15Amp fuse had gone.... Lost the complete expansion tank content (1.5 l) We changed to a new fuse, let the engine cool down, refilled with water and bled the complete system. Three big stains of coolant where left on the car park when we went on. It ran fine then for the following 1.500km :) For the archives: Need to correct a mad error with the coolant sensor check. I thought a shortcut to the connector would start the front fan.... Errr... no... just disconnecting the sensor while ignition on will bring him to run. btw. the reason for the blown fuse was by 100% NOT a worn cable at my car. I isolated them some weeks ago. Tony has another theory about it. He meaned the fan would not have worked for a longer time and would have pulled to much currency cause it was just sticking for a moment. Sounds reasonable for me. I almost drove long distances in the cold or very short distances in the last couple of month. This means the front fan had no needs to start since month until the hot ride on the Alps pass. Cheers Dieter |
| Dieter K. |
| You must have been worried about having hgf then. Luckily this wasn't the case Johan |
| Johan Slagter |
| Johan, of course, when I saw the expansion tank empty the first look went to the head location near the alternator. It was dry, so no worries. Regards Dieter HEF-MG96 <<- now 89.170km on the way to 100.000km FO-HGF ?? ;) ... knocking on wood. |
| Dieter K. |
| A lucky escape Dieter! Fingers crossed and hope you still make the 100k. |
| JohnP |
| Hi Dieter, a close one.... hope you dont suffer any connected failures to this overheating! But it worries me to hear that you of all people still have the original 15A fuse for the fan. I urge all out there to immediatly change that one to at least 20A as 15A is underrated and will blow sooner or later. A check with a clamp-ammeter tells the story of start-up current.... If something gets seriously wrong in the wires to the fan OR in case of a stuck fan the 20 or 25A will blow after a few seconds.But the 20A will in many cases blow on start-up of the fan! Didn“t we discuss this on the board allready in the late 90's IIRC? BR, Carl. |
| Carl Blom |
| OOPS, should of course been: "but the 15A will in many cases blow on start-up of the fan!" / Carl. |
| Carl Blom |
| Hi Dieter, a 'close shave' eh! My TF160 has 20amp fuse for Radiator Fan. (also air con fan and heater blower) Have you had a chance to compare your fan with another one - to see if the bearing is drying out? Enjoyed Klaus' pictures, looks like you had a great time. Nothing quite completes an MG event without a mechanical problem to be solved and in my experience you rarely get one without the other :-) I'm glad your 'incident' had a happy and inexpensive ending jt |
| John Thomas |
| OK So I remember talk of this BUT where and what number is this fuse? Glad all was OK otherwise Dieter make sure the car is OK by Treffen Time. Ted |
| Ted Newman |
| :-O :-( :- :-) :-D Phew! SF (International language for 'Oh no!, is it HGF?, nope, what could it be? Looks like the fuse. Problem solved, on with the tour! Relief). |
| Scarlet Fever |
| Damn Dieter.... that's a close one. Looks like the safest way to drive an F is in a convoy. Who will be driving at the last position on the Treffen ? Anyway, very happen it worked out OK for both of you. Cheers @SF: nice one... more advanced than my English skills anyway ;o) |
| Erik |
| Ted, details here: http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/hgf_pages/related_problems_overheating.htm Sending the resistance at the sensor to 0 or infinity resistance will trigger the fan - so just unplugging the sensor plug will give you an indication of where the fault lies :o) Phew Dieter! Close shave! Been there, done that - albeit in less elevated climes! Good to hear that the MG community once again came to the rescue! :o) PS is antifreeze deposition on the froozen tips of the alps a good idea? Hmm - I see a cartoon arising from this ;o) LOL |
| Rob Bell |
| > I see a cartoon arising from this ;o) LOL < 'bout time we had another one:-) Ted |
| Ted Newman |
| So which one should be changed to 20 amp - under bonnet or in car? or both? Ted |
| Ted Newman |
| LOL, :) thank you for all the sympathy. Of course there was a discussion earlier, but fot instance I didn't take much attention, cause I thought only on worn cables. Anyway, I think it's worth having clear instructions to the fan fuse. http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/hgf_pages/related_problems_overheating.htm To be enhenced and still corrected about the mad spring clip ;) On first hand I think it's no problem regarding current mgtf setup to *upgrade* all MGF to 10Amp fuses. On the other hand it doesn't sound very technical to just change without any reasonable technical evidence on what's right. However, what about measuring/calculating anything and take reasonable decisions ? I got a new front fan for aircon add-on in the garage. Can compare P/N's and static resistance. Measuring the *start-up* currency might be impossible with my equipment (cheap digital multi-instrument only). I have no clamp amp-meter :( Another idea was getting in a simple indicator for a blown fan fuse. Put a LED with resistor or a big 12V sirene parallel to the fan fuse and install to the dash. A blown fuse will let it come off and advise on a problem. Regards Dieter PS. we have about 850 (eighthundred) more pics of this 5 days event in process to be hosted soon ;) |
| Dieter K. |
| >> To be enhenced and still corrected about the mad spring clip ;) << ROFL! You're not wrong there Dieter! |
| Rob Bell |
| Ted, the 20 amp fuse I was referring to is under the bonnet. I ignored confusing info in the drivers handbook and looked at the description of the fuses attached to the boxes themselves. The only fuse marked 'Radiator Fan' is under the bonnet and as I said before it's 20amp on my TF160. We await feed back from owners of other model years. There is an adjacent underbonet fuse for air con fan that's 20amp too - I have the fuse but no aircon. I noted that the even the heater blower fan is 20amp (that fuse in inside car under dashboard). All suggests rover may have realised 15amp is too low. Alternatively of course they may have uprated the fans - anyone able to confirm/deny this via RAVE data on this. Cheers, jt ps I have seen a mechanic with an arm like and ape actually disconnect plug from brown sensor via ordinalry boot access to engine!!!!! |
| John Thomas |
| oops typos ps I have seen a mechanic with an arm like an ape actually disconnect the plug from the brown sensor via ordinary boot access to engine!!!!! jt |
| John Thomas |
| Hi Dieter What a great escape!! >Another idea was getting in a simple indicator for a blown fan fuse Go on then tell us how to do it. Best wishes David |
| david stonehouse |
| >Another idea was getting in a simple indicator for a blown fan fuse Go on then tell us how to do it. Go to an alarm company and buy the smallest 'internal sounder' you can find, they run from 12v, wire the +ve to the battery side of the fuse and the -ve to the fan side of the fuse. Bingo whenever the fan switches on _and_ the fuse has gone the buzzer will call out the problem! |
| Will Munns |
| Or you could use a big ar*e flashing ultra bright led and hide it inside the air outlet for the windscreen, wired in the same way. |
| Will Munns |
| >>>Another idea was getting in a simple indicator for a blown fan fuse >>Go on then tell us how to do it. >Go to an alarm company and buy the smallest 'internal sounder' you can find, *g* exactly this was the idea :) I still have some 120mm diameter/30mm high sounders from burgler alarm system in the cellar. 12V of course. I think it does 98+?? dB and will boost someone out of the car if it comes off. Advantage: Can easy be put to the bonnet and wiring should be no problem at all. Will have a look. It's big fun in any way ;) |
| Dieter K. |
| Great ideas on how to make the Alarm come Onn. Do not forget that you want to be able to turn it off !! Geoff F. |
| G. Farthing |
| My research suggests fan changes at vin 17770 and 511058 Fan (& cowl) part # PGF100970 -> PGF101320 -> to PGF101410 But of course I can't tell what the differences are without seeing the actual part :-( They cost ~ £150 !! a/c cars have two of the same part no. jt |
| John Thomas |
| good idea to look up in that direction. Even if theres no detail about differences currently. My 4pence on the matter: VIN 17770 was January 1997 I think it's mainly due to to the changed EC approval (assumingly) VIN 511058 was August 1999 with introduction of MY2000 MGF (could be a changed connector ??) It's good to know a/c cars have the same with two of. So I can use my spare for comparison later .. (when I can find it in the 14 moving boxes) ;) @Geoff, you need to hurry immidiately and put in a working fuse or temporary wire bridge in any way before you get scalped by pedestrians. ;) No worries about police tickets. The HGF would be much more expensive instead. Needs some training and practising .. may be :) Errrm... would be a useful part of each MGF- Register Competion. Dave L., can you hear me :) |
| Dieter K. |
| Dieter, I SAW YOU IN BOZEN!! you were driving down from Jenesien, stop at the junction with the Sarntal Bundestrasse. I was in my yellow Elise, driving toward Sarnthein. Apologies for non stopping myself, but I was in a bit of hurry for a job interview... I do live in Sarnthein (just downhill from the Penserjoch where you lost the coolant). I an ashamed I didn't have the roof off, but also the Elise with you didn't :-)) |
| Carlo |
| I think confusion regarding this fuse started very early,maybee even in the day“s of MGF test mules! Have a look in the protective cover for the underbonnet fuse-box. Here there is a printing of location and value for the fuses. Radiator fan is noted as 15A (blue plastic for the fuse). In the Electrical Circuit Diagrams at "Power distribution" / under bonnet fusebox the fuse No6 is the actual one for the radiator fan and rated at 15A. BUT HAVE A LOOK AT THE SAME FUSE 6 LATER ON IN THE SCHEMATICS !! Now it is rated for 20A .... Probably this is closer to the truth than the 15A that IS underrated for that fan.But everything was printed and ready for launch... And remember that when the fan is needed usually the engine is running and the actual battery voltage will be around 13,8-14 Volt. This gives even more current demand from the fan comparing to a test with a nominal no charge/engine not running 12V battery. A yellow 20A fuse will give peace of mind,at least for this specific gremlin! PS. I like the "whistlers" you use in U.K for the tea kettle. Could such an item be implemented in the cooling system as a sounder ? ;O) /Carl. |
| Carl Blom |
| >Do not forget that you want to be able to turn it off !! It will only sond when the fan should be on but isn't due to a blown fuse, so in this case you can stop the sounder by switching off the engine - which you'll be wanting to do anyway before it cooks itself! |
| Will Munns |
| Surely the fan will be running for a time even if the engine is switched off. Have not looked into the schematics (at work now)but every other car behaves like that,i.e the fan will still be running a while when coolant is at upper temperature even when the car is parked and locked. / Carl. |
| Carl Blom |
| Carl, I'm pretty sure the F doesn't do this as there is no point*, instead it runs the engine bay fan Will * no thermosyphoning in a modern engine and no draft thru to the engine behind. |
| Will Munns |
| Carl, The rad fan does not run once the engine is switched off. For this reason, Rob Bell and I have been concerned about heat soak causing localised boiling of the small amount of coolant left in the cylinder head, once the engine is off. In conversation with Dave Andrews we gather that this localised boiling can cause softening of the head over time and ultimately HGF. We're aware of a solution applied by Lotus to K series engines with air con, in the Exige. They fit a small electric pump and if the engine temp is high, they run this pump after the engine has been turned off. Our attempts to replicate this solution and to retrofit it to MGFs have faltered recently. We have a friendly water pump distributor keen to see such a solution that they can market, but the problem is to econimically build the control mechanism to power it after engine shutdown and run it for a period of time. We've been prepared to keep the control issue simple and just run the pump for a time period after engine shutdown, rather than have to check engine temperature, but even this approach has proven too expensive. A UK automotive sparks produced a prototype, but estimated £100 for small numbers of production units. This added to a pump cost of around £100 begins to make the solution uneconomic. Note however, that the retail price of the pump fitted to the Lotus Exige (a Bosch unit) is £250 !! If you're interested in this subject and think you may be able to help please drop Rob Bell or me an email. Some more detail about the project is on Rob's website at http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/hgf_pages/cooling_system_modifications.htm (scroll down to "The electric bypass water booster pump") |
| Dave Livingstone |
| !but estimated £100 for small numbers of production units.! Jesus - why so much? isn't it just a capacitior, resistor, transistor, diode and relay? in fact, why not just connect it to the engine bay fan? 30 secs or so should be enough to stabalize the temps. |
| Will Munns |
| >>Jesus - why so much? isn't it just a capacitior, resistor, transistor, diode and relay? I don't know Will - if you can help us we'd appreciate it. One alternative idea we had was to try to tap into the fact that the ECU holds power for things like the engine bay fan for a short period of time after engine shutdown. We've been trying to find out whether this power holding period is long enough or even consistent. We already know that the duration is temperature dependant, but we haven't got any info back from MGR yet, despite using our usual trusted sources. This possibility is something we might just try, to see what happens. Rob believes he knows where to tap into the ECU. A trial water pump is fitted already to a test car (not one of ours, but one belonging to a trusted mg specialist participating in the project. The problem is getting the time to progress this as the specialist has been so busy this season. >>in fact, why not just connect it to the engine bay fan? 30 secs or so should be enough to stabalize the temps. Lotus documentation seems to imply we'd need to run for 8 or 9 minutes after engine shutdown. The engine bay fan won't necessarily kick in quickly enough as this is dependant upon ambient temperature in the engine bay. We're concerned about the heat soak in the cylinder head immediately you shutdown. By the time this might have translated into a high enough engine bay temperature to kick in the fan, the damage is done. On my VVC for example the engine bay fan rarely kicks in, even if I've been hammering around a track and got the oil temperature up towards the 150 mark. |
| Dave Livingstone |
| Will, >>A trial water pump is fitted already to a test car I should also have said that this installation includes the prototype control unit that the sparks made. If you're interested to get involved, I'm sure we could arrange for you to take a look at this and see if it is "just a capacitior, resistor, transistor, diode and relay". |
| Dave Livingstone |
| >>>>in fact, why not just connect it to the engine bay fan? 30 secs or so should be enough to stabalize the temps.<< that probably wont work - but replacing the enginebay tempsensor with a waterTemp sensor, and driving the electric water pump instead of (or as well as) the engine bay fan may work. Do you not also need to drive the front radiator fan ? I've got an electronic remote-sensing thermometer from Maplin, including display etc which has relay output control for high/low temperature alarms. Cost was around 15quid. |
| Steve |
| >> Rob believes he knows where to tap into the ECU. << This is Bruce's suggestion, using the same Purge valve circuit that Carl used for the delayed window power down circuit that is described on Dieter's website. It seems that the circuit is active for a variable duration after ignition off, depending on oil temperature (ideal for us). But I don't know the durations, and whether this is consistent for all cars...? |
| Rob Bell |
| Carlo, >I SAW YOU IN BOZEN!! >you were driving down from Jenesien LOL, great in any way. Sorry we couldn't hav some words:( Will give you a hint the next time we go done. Btw, Jenesien... ROFLMAO .. look out for our huge picture sequence website. To be hosted soon. We missed the road in Jenesien and while looking for the right way, we went up a very, very narrow way up 'direct' to the hill. Some of us failed the hill road and went back to the main road. (Junction, you met us.) The red Elise was Petra and the roof was up, cause we just came down from Brenner rainy weather conditions. Carl, we discussed the front fan beeing not running on engine out some month ago. Found it not much useful, cause of missing waterflow due to not running waterpump/engine. It's another case for guys who know about soak matters and would let the engine idle after a hot ride. However *the cat bites in her own tail thought*. The independent electric water pump as used at Lotus is another question. I'd be happy and I think standard drivers as well, if the damn standard front-fan would work when it should. Regards Dieter |
| Dieter K. |
| Apology, off topic again http://www.j4k.gmxhome.de/MG-Download.htm The lower picture is from the mad road where we left o lot of clutch smoke and some didn't get up the hill. (2km? twisted narrow road with really sharp Serpentines) --------------------------- At all: So can I take an aggreement to the files to instruct all F-ers over my webside to immidiately swap the 15Amp fuse to 20 Amp ??? Yes, or any daubts ? I'll call someone *semi-official* at Neuss DE tomorrow in any way. Rgds Dieter |
| Dieter K. |
| Hi all, yes-agree, now when I had the chance to look into the schematics that the radiator fan doesn“t run after the engine is shut off ! But why not ? Imagine that the fan runs for a prolonged period, let“s say for 2 minutes. Surely this will cool the water in the radiator and at least to some degree help to start thermosifonic (self-flow) in the system if there is at least a decent flowpath thru the engine.There is no great force needed to squeeze the soft hoses going to the rad,so at least no restrictions felt there... And with a hot engine at least the thermostat should be fully or partly open.The waterpump is a restriction when at stand still - but even so there will be a flow thru . So with the mass of cooler water in the radiator sinking it is only a question of correct connections to the rad. Hot water from the engine to the top inlet on rad. and the cooled water emerging from the bottom outlet. With no additional cooling of the radiator (as in today“s circuit)the rad.will probably cool off at the same rate as the engine = no flow at all ! Me thinks there can be some nice easy tests performed..... / Carl. |
| Carl Blom |
| >Surely this will cool the water in the radiator Yes >and at least to some degree help to start thermosifonic (self-flow) in the system No >if there is at least a decent flowpath thru the engine. ... >with a hot engine at least the thermostat should be fully or partly open. not so* >The waterpump is a restriction when at stand still - but even so there will be a flow thru . Nope, the waterpump is a vane device, and holds up no restriction when no turning *The thermostat is mounted on the inlet side of the engine, and so mixes the hot water from the bypass with the cool water from the rad to create an even temp in the inlet. With the engine off there will be no flow thru the bypass so only a tiny amount of flow of cold water from the rad will close the thermostat compleatly. So cooling the rad is futile! |
| Will Munns |
| P.S. I'll take a look at the circuit if you like, but you'll have to wait a month as I have holiday and buisness trips to do. |
| Will Munns |
| >This added to a pump cost of around £100 begins to make the solution uneconomic. > .. the retail price of the pump fitted to the Lotus Exige (a Bosch unit) is £250 !! How about discovering what other cars the Bosch pump is fitted to then looking for one from scrap parts merchants. One was fitted on an Audi turbo I once had. Audi really covered every angle and, as well as the auxilliary water pump the had fitted a separate fan to blow cold air over the turbo as well. As a result the head and turbo were fine - the exhaust manifold died instead :-) jt |
| John Thomas |
| John said: >>How about discovering what other cars the Bosch pump is fitted to then looking for one from scrap parts merchants. Good thinking John, but the mission we've been on has been to try to find a way of making a kit that could be "productionised" by the water pump distributor. Our involvement was as interested parties who would be willing to trial such a solution and test its efficacy. Will said: >>I'll take a look at the circuit if you like, but you'll have to wait a month as I have holiday and buisness trips to do. Will, that may be faster than we'll get around to it at this rate - we've been running this project now since Silverstone last year when we were approached by the water pump distributor :-) Carl said: >>Surely this will cool the water in the radiator and at least to some degree help to start thermosifonic (self-flow) in the system if there is at least a decent flowpath thru the engine. Carl, even ignoring Will's counter argument about this, our concern would be that by this time it is too late and the localised boiling in the head has happened. As I understand it from DVA, the moment the engine is switched off and the water pump stops the flow of coolant through the head stops. The amount of coolant left in the head is very small and since it is now static, the heat soak from a hot engine will boil it very quickly. The only solution would seem to be to keep the coolant moving - hence the Lotus solution of a snall supplementary water pump that is plumbed in to the circuit close to the head. |
| Dave Livingstone |
| Just updated all my docs regarding the fan fuse. Almost of interest for those who don't get what we are talking about is http://www.mgfcar.de/power_boost_valve/dk_DCP_6132.jpg Modify the front bonnet fusepanel with printed stickers and swap both fuses to 20Amp type. http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/Sicherungskasten.jpg btw, my german language owners manual from 1999 says on page 93, it's fuse #2 ;) ... versus wiring diagram old edition fuse #6. Edited the Owners Manual in the car as well to 20Amp instead of 15Amp.... in case someone looks up there at any time. Regards Dieter |
| Dieter K. |
| Quick response from Bath :) John, thank you for the pic of current MGTF fuse panel !! http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/jt_mgtf_underbonnet_dscn0123.jpg |
| Dieter K. |
| Nice work guys.... an easy and cheap call of the darkside (or not really as it is more MG-life-critical) Erik (developing my own EBTCU or Engine Bay Temperature Control Unit ;o) |
| Erik |
| Hi all, spent yestarday evening in the garage in order to have a closer look at the electrics and other topics mentioned in the above threads. It is easy to get at the front radiator relay and it“s wiring as the relay is the yellow one attached close to the underbonnet fusebox,as in pictures above. I have temporary moved the lightgreen with gray stripe from fuse 15 to fuse 3 in the passenger compartment fusebox. This is easy if a separate fuseholder with short cables with spade connectors is fabricated. Fuse 3 is labeled as "not used" and is located just below fuse 15. Now it is possible for the fan to run even if engine is switched off. For safety reasons I will put on some labeling on the radiator that the fan can run anytime even with engine off. Now it is also easy to add any switch or circuit to make the fan run. Just simply ground the blue-grey cable from the yellow relay and the fan will run.(A well known MGB/C trick for those with electrical fan conversion !!) As for the flow thru the radiator I am a bit puzzled that I can totally and fast compress the soft hooses connected to the radiator inlet or outles and defenatly feel that there is a quick and non-restricted flow in any direction. This even so if the interior heater is totally closed. In what direction and thru what waterways is that flow ?? I must admit that I have a holed (3mm) thermostat. Unfortunatly I was alone in the garage so could not check into the engine bay at the same time to spot if there was any movement in the coolant reservoar.. Work will continue with temp-sensors and with forced cooling on the radiator to see if there are any changes... BR, Carl. |
| Carl Blom |
| The system is not exactly the same as the Rover 600, but in the 600 the bottom hose from the radaitor goes to the thermostat and to the expansion tank - so this gives free movement in this direction. On the other side, the top hose goes to the engine outlet (exhaust manifold side), thru the engine, thru the water pump*, and against the thermostat, water can not easily move in this direction. Will (no restriction, vane pump works by centrepetal force and offers no restriction to flow when stopped) |
| Will Munns |
| Mind you on 'confusions' regarding swapped or correct connection of radiator hose circuit from two? years ago when Carl installed his remote thermostat. I recall we didn't find out finally what's right or wrong ? I reffer to hot inlet on top or on the bottom of the radiator. Back to the fuse instructions. Had some quick survey tonight regarding the 15A/20A change due to MGF/TF make years. John was so kind and sent another picture of his early TF. (see above post). Sent an inquiry to Daniel, another owner and he kindly reported his fuse setup for a MY2000 car. *********************************************** The facts so far with fuse panel cover print and 15A/20A installation regarding MGF/TF models: http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/Fuse3.jpg to VIN XD511058 cover YQH100440 with 15A radiator fan and 15A A/C fan This means all MGF MK1 until September? 1999 from XD511059 to 2D600100 with 20A radiator fan and 15A A/C fan This means MGF MK2 (MY2000) since September 1999 http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/jt_mgtf_underbonnet_dscn0123.jpg since 2D600101 YQH100210 with 20A radiator fan and 20A A/C fan This means all MGTF *********************************************** Such cover costs about 12 quid, so it's easier to print small *Brother strip stickers* with '20A' and adher them on the old. Will host a picture later. |
| Dieter K. |
| Oooops, 2nd P/N missing. Apology, now complete *********************************************** The facts so far with fuse panel cover print and 15A/20A installation regarding MGF/TF models: http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/Fuse3.jpg to VIN XD511058 cover YQH100440 with 15A radiator fan and 15A A/C fan This means all MGF MK1 until September? 1999 from XD511059 to 2D600100 cover YQH101090 with 20A radiator fan and 15A A/C fan This means MGF MK2 (MY2000) since September 1999 http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/jt_mgtf_underbonnet_dscn0123.jpg since 2D600101 YQH100210 with 20A radiator fan and 20A A/C fan This means all MGTF *********************************************** |
| Dieter K. |
| Another "off the shelf" solution might be to employ a turbo timer which WRX/EVO/Nissan Turbo owners use to keep ther engine running until the turbo cools, to reduce the likelyhood of turbo failure. |
| Phil Stafford |
| <tech mode off> Dieter, you took the old footpath to Jenesien... it actually is a shortcut, but it is a bit steep :-) <tech mode on> I spent the whole of yesterday on my Elise driving up and down many alpine passes (including Dieter's beloved Penserjoch) to test the altitude correction on my Emerald. As I did stop on the top in most cases (after some drive under *severe* conditions) I also checked the temp behaviour: with engine idling, no more 1 minute is needed to cool down the engine to 90-92 °C (temp taken after another minute with engine off, then on again). about the electric pump you're planning to fit (craig davies, IIRC), do you know if it restricts the flow when off? I ask because the standard bypass flow is already on the limit on the K 1.8 and a pressure drop could lead to serious thermostat issues... |
| Carlo |
| <tech mode off> Carlo, >the old footpath to Jenesien... I was happy beeing able to drive in this *road?* with the MGF and had no need to walk instead !! :oP I think it's easy to drive it alone in one shot, but we did _stop and go_ with app. 20 cars. A farmer standing in front of his house was shaking his head and said, never seen so many cars going up there ;) <tech mode on> http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/hgf_pages/cooling_system_modifications.htm and picture http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/hgf_pages/HGF_images/EWP_in_Lotus_figures.gif ------ cut + paste ---- So what is the solution? Interestingly, Lotus foresaw problems with the very high performance derivatives (VHPD) of the Elise and Exige. Although Lotus kept the high capacity mechanical water pump (capable of moving over 100L/min), they added an additional 'booster' pump in the bypass circuit. This is pictured above right. --------- end --- So it restricts of course the bypass from my understanding ?? but not the main way to the radiator ?? I think this is why Dave and the other frequently going to track days are keen on this pump installation. I think for usual road use only the _damn fan must work_ and IF someone goes up to Penser Joch or has other hot rides he/she should know that it's good to let the engine idle and cool down before shutting down. Cheers Dieter |
| Dieter K. |
| the EWP should not restrict the flow by very much (should be barely noticable comapred with the restriction). The potential problem is that the thermostat mixes hot(bypass) and cold (radiator)water so the inlet temp remains at 88 degrees. If you restrict the hot water, then the thermostat still mixes the water to 88 degrees, but at a much lower flow rate. |
| Will Munns |
| quote: <The potential problem is that the thermostat mixes hot(bypass) and cold (radiator)water so the inlet temp remains at 88 degrees. If you restrict the hot water, then the thermostat still mixes the water to 88 degrees, but at a much lower flow rate.> exactly... plus any sharp temperature variation coming from the radiator and not "smoothened" by the bypass flow may cause the thermostat to shut completely... plus the limited flow when cold (up to 80-85°) could lead to a temp gradient inside the engine... |
| Carlo |
| Yes, but the pump won't restrict enough to make a diffrence at the low flow rates in the bypass. |
| Will Munns |
| Hi Dieter, Good to hear you got back safely and without further problems. We are currently in Turin - Lynn is snoozing and I am down in the basement of the Hotel, since it is extremly hot outside. Waiting for it to cool down a bit - just like your car!!! LOL Changing the fuse sounds like a good idea, and especially adding the LED. I expect to see a circuit diagram prepared by the time we get home!! LOL Regards to Rosie Tony |
| Tony |
| Dieter, Sorry that I cannot agree with you about the MY2000. This has a 15Amp Cooling and 20 Amp Air Con iaw the handbook and a physical check on my car. But are they not the same type fan ?? Geoff F. |
| G. Farthing |
| >I expect to see a circuit diagram LED, long leg to the battery side of the fuse, short leg to resistor, other leg of resistor to the fan side of the fuse. To find out what resistor you need - find 'forward current' in the specs of the LED, now divide 12 by that value in amps (should be in mA so make sure you put the decimal point in the right place). Buy the next highest resistor to the value you have got. |
| Will Munns |
| > This has a 15Amp Cooling and 20 Amp Air Con iaw the handbook and a physical check on my car. >But are they not the same type fan ?? Yes, RAVE shows same part no for air con fan and ordinary fan. Maybe Rover found the 15A a/c fan was too low first, seems reasonable as you'd expect the a/c fan to get much more exercise than rad fan. And then realised they ought to change the rad fan fuse to given it's the same fan. Just a theory tho' What VIN is your car Geoff. Assuming you don't have a/c I'd swap the fuses over. jt |
| John Thomas |
| @Dieter (to complete your data) A 2001 Trophy (AC) has a 20 A Condensor Fan 15 A Rad Fan Pic1 : http://www.sniff-em.com/sicher1.jpg Pic2 : http://www.sniff-em.com/sicher2.jpg |
| Thierry |
| Thank You ! This confirms. Boohoo, me and reading ;) Of course, Geoff and Thierry are right for obviously all MY2000 !!! I'm sorry about the usual confusion ;) ------------------- Daniel wrote: Bei mir ist genau 50-50... VIN 520313 - RAD FAN: 15A - CONDENS FAN: 20A Gesteckt und im Deckel verzeichnet... ------------------------- So correction #2 *******************last and final !!**************************** The facts so far with fuse panel cover print and 15A/20A installation regarding MGF/TF models: http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/Fuse3.jpg to VIN XD511058 cover YQH100440 with 15A radiator fan and 15A A/C fan This means all MGF MK1 until September? 1999 from XD511059 to 2D600100 cover YQH101090 with 15A radiator fan and 20A A/C fan This means MGF MK2 (MY2000) since September 1999 http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/jt_mgtf_underbonnet_dscn0123.jpg since 2D600101 YQH100210 with 20A radiator fan and 20A A/C fan This means all MGTF *********************************************** btw, I prepared upgrade kits for Ebay auctions :) Check item 7905138760 !! *getting rich soon* ... LOL :-) Cheers Dieter |
| Dieter K. |
| Bids on this item are direct donations to the domain mgf-net (I did) come on let's support Dieter. |
| Thierry |
| When we tried to install the Starter button we accidently hold the cable against the wrong fuse, and a FAN started to ran, given what I know this was the condensator fan. However wouldn't it be a good idea to have a switch (on/off) which explicitely enables the fan, as example when you idle after a hot run, you enable the switch for the fan to turn ? |
| T |
| Hi Thierry, thank you for the high bids. 5 of the kits available currently .. :) Anyway, had some DIY with other darkside bits at the car this afternoon and looked at the bonnet fusebox design. Options for the buzzer installation are dead easy and there's nuff space at the bottom to get in 1 or 2 of the standard small 12V buzzers. Pics shop what you will find at a standard MPi without A/C. http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/lower_cover_03329.jpg http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/buzzer_ground_plus_03330.jpg Interestingly, or not ?. The 15A A/C fuse sits there unused. No wire attached at the third terminal below. So i'd recommend swapping this fuse also to 20A and use it as spare if the fan use blows at any time. Plus wire can be taken easy from a terminal on top. (see unused M4? thread if you remove the second cover on top of the panel). http://www.mgfcar.de/fuse/second_cover_off03321.jpg Put minus of a buzzer with help of a Y-crimp bypass to the second wire below Fuse No. 2. The buzzer will sound if: The Engine runs OR ignition is on AND if the radiator fan should run due to feed from the radiator fan relay. It will not sound with ignition out or if the temperature is below the _off signal_ for the radiator fan. Will do it if I can find anywhere the buzzer I bought recently. Regards Dieter |
| Dieter K. |
This thread was discussed between 08/06/2004 and 12/06/2004
MG MGF Technical index
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGF Technical BBS is active now.