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MG MGF Technical - PTP 140/170 kits

Hi guys,

Just looking in from the Elise BBS - looking to upgrade my 1.8i with either PTP or DVA - any of you had any experience with these firms/people?

Had good reports on DVA, but I would really prefer all new kit (PTP route) - I realise PTP is a swear word on the Elise BBS...

Cheers,

Greg - Elise S2
Greg

Just call out for Erik, he had the PTP RT165 kit fitted and is quite happy about it. One minor problem iirc was the engine fan was not driven by the provided ECU. But then, that shouldn“t be a problem one the Lizzy ;-)
I“ll leave it to Erik to write in some more detail on that subject.

About DVA, I also heard stories and facts about people“s experience. You might want to sent "ghostrider"

http://www.xpower-mg.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=3341

on the X-power board a PM to get more details on his DVA conversion. I am not familiar with his experience,

cheers,
david.
David Peters

I can thoroughly recommend Dave Andrews' work (DVA). My VVC head has been ported and with the usual breathing improvements and a bit more fuel pressure makes 183bhp. The roliing road graphs are impressive straight lines both for power and torque.
Dave Livingstone

Ditto Dave comments. I'm VERY happy with Dave's kit, these really are beautifully flowed heads, no 3 angle cut throats here they are fully radiused for the ultimate in air flow.

I'm not too sure about your comment
'but I would really prefer all new kit (PTP route)'

Although Dave will flow your own head he is also able to supply brand new heads flowed to your specification. However, race teams (and enthusiast) often prefer to use used heads for head flowing. These have been though a number of heat cycles and are probably more suitable for a 'hotter' engine having settled down.

I'm sure the PTP kit is well put together too but from my own research I think DVA is a little more cost effective for the same spec.


HTH

Tim
tim woolcott

Putting aside questions of cost, power claims etc etc (which are very valid issues - but these have been addressed to some extent already), the difference between DVA and PTP is a question of package convenience.

If you like getting involved in your engines build, then I'd go the DVA route. You'll have to arrange for your engine to be stripped, and Dave will work his magic on the head. Then you'll need to have the engine rebuilt. Dave can sell you all the parts required to do this extremely competitively, and he's introduce you to Dave Walker who'll set your Emerald ECU up for you.

Alternatively, if you want a simple life, then a PTP package starts to make sense. Everything is there in a box, complete with a pre-programmed ECU etc.

The ethos of the two approaches are very different. Which would you prefer?
Rob Bell

Thanks so far everyone - to be honest getting a more balanced response than from the Lotus boys.

Rob,

I have already discussed a "full installation" with Dave for him to do the work - basically a 150 kit (retaining my ECU) with cams, verniers & 421 - I already have Janspeed SS exhaust.

I'm not keen on getting involved myself.

I know it's more costly, but I still like the idea of a fully warranted "professional" installation of the PTP - then it's whether I go for a 140 with 421 for almost the same cost as DVA - or the 170 which seems better value, but means I get out my credit card!!!

The 170/165 kits seem to be all the ones causing the problems (from those wanting to complain anyway).

I realise any decision is ultimately down to me, and I can listen too much to what people say...

Greg
greg

My 2p worth. I have a Janspeed head which was sold as a 140 head. I am very happy with it - no complaints.

However, I have since bolted on extra stuff and am now looking at hotter cams etc.

So the lesson is think about where you want to end up. Having several bites of the cherry is extensive but what ever you do I guarantee you will want more power!
Steve Ratledge

Greg, Steve's right - and the message is something that is worth taking very very seriously. Consider WHERE it is that you want to end up, performance wise - and aim to get there in one step.

It may not be all that glamorous saving up money and buying the various parts over time, but if that means that this is the best way to build an engine that YOU want, producing the power you need, then this is definitely the way to go: you can potentially end up wasting 100s sometimes 1000s of £££ changing your mind as to what it is that you're after and disgarding superfluous parts.

Decide now what power you want, what specification you want. And keep to it.

A 140 kit, I guess, produces something in the region of 140bhp. That isn't a particularly large gain in power - and in fact, it is relatively easy to get that kind of power keeping the standard head and simply going for some warmer cams (for example Piper BP270H).

You'll definitely want MORE power! If I were you, I'd go for the better PTP/DVA specified kits.

I am guessing from your reply that you are keen to have some form of safety net that PTP provides with its warranty. It is attractive - and they are a large organisation that is unlikely to go belly-up on you. But this security is something that you have to pay for.

Conversely, it appears that DVA is leaving you high and dry. In practice, it doesn't work out quite that way. Dave is a fantastically helpful and enthusiastic chap - as you'll have found out already. You do take on some risk with this option - but with Dave at the end of the phone, problems can be resolved.

For you, I guess it boils down to two questions:
1. How much power do I want
2. How much support/ protection do I want/need.

For me, I'd go for the DVA route. His prices are extremely competitive. Yes, there is more effort/hassle for you, BUT what you get is a good end result. Moreover, whilst there is no warranty, there is friendly support for when things go wrong. If you are worried, perhaps bank the savings you make from not buying the equivalent PTP kit as a contingency - but from the experience of many here and on other forums, you'll not often have to delve into that reserve...

It's a tough choice, but getting opinions to help you make that choice is certainly a good thing. Good luck!
Rob Bell

>>> Just call out for Erik, <<<
Hi there,

During one of the first months of this year, our F was suffering from a HGF, while I was suffering from a hit from the darkside. So it was time to start thinking and more important taking actions for some head work.

Although there were other players in the field, it all boiled down to two opponents: DVA and PTP. One of my major problem was that it needed to be fit by my local MG technicians. They're kind, helpfull but don't care too much about sporty cars and the hunt for horses.

So driving the car up to DVA or even PTP was a no go and delivery of the reshaped head was quite urgent. I couldn't pay by credit card when ordering at DVA, so I must start arranging a bank2bank transfer etc...

As PTP was providing

Erik

... a complete kit with every single gasket and a fine manual, I went that route.

I am vary happy with the result and the help I received from PTP during the build up (minor problems, but the look huge after you spend + £2000 and the car isn't running at all).

It's like I've upgraded from an MPi to a VVC, as the engine gets a second life once above 4000rpm. At that stage it really starts pulling and getting fast. I love it ;o) (big grin).

HTH,
Erik
Erik

Additional link: http://www.mgtf.be/MO_TU_EN_PTPRTSport165_01.html
Erik

Erik,

Very nice set of pics. Do you have any more pics showing the inside of the throats (Inlet and exhaust tract)....?

tim
Tim

Don't know if you need more, but have you checked this page ?
http://www.mgtf.be/MO_TU_EN_PTPRTSport165_02.html
Erik

Thanks for all that Erik,

Have you had any problems, how does the engine "idle"?

What about emissions/mpg changes?

And what was the story with the fan?

Greg
greg


I believe Sabre heads were behind the original work for this off-the-shelf head.

Sabre do substantially more when they do head work themselves tho.

B
Bob

Bob - I thought that Janspeed did all the head work for Powertrain projects? I might be wrong, but the chap behind Sabre used to work for Janspeed didn't he?
Rob Bell

Hi Rob/Bob/all,

Bob is right. The guys at Sabre used to work for Janspeed. I'm assuming that the PTP head is in effect a Janspeed head.
From what I can gather, the Janspeed head is a basic casting of Roger's work when he was with Janspeed. I think he did all of Janspeed's porting but went direct recently. Something like that at least.

Obviously, a hand ported head will give you much better performance... but for an off-the-shell job as Bob describes it... it's very appealing! :o)

Another interesting point is that Roger adds a variation of the machined ring round the vales found on the newer 160PS engines. Wonder where MGR got that idea? :o)
He's also the guy who did the porting for the Rover BRM of (now defunct?) roverbrm.co.uk. An all round interesting chap.

Some of you will know how happy I am with Sabre/Roger's work. :o)
A really really helpful guy with lots of honest advice and bags of experience.
One thing he does have over DVA is that he flows every head. Thus his improvements are based on factual increases in flow as well as expereience. I have the flow figures for my particular head - which is quite cool. :)

Shameless plug...
Sabre are to be found at 01722 332234 (A Salisbury number!!) or email him on Sabre_Heads@yahoo.co.uk.

Cheers,
Paul.
Paul Nothard

"You know when you've been Rogered" LOL - I think that's how his advert appeared in totalMG?
Not spoken to the chap, but he seems to be a 'good guy' :o)
Rob Bell


Youre basically right Paul. Hope you're enjoying his work.
He still has close links with Janspeed. He has done some very good work with many Lotus boys but has tended to stay anonymous behind dealer supplied heads. One of the unsung heros who, imo, generally does better work than DVA.
b
Bob

Ah, but the latest PTP 170 kit appears to have a "new Vulcan head" whatever that is...?

Greg
greg

>> Ah, but the latest PTP 170 kit appears to have a "new Vulcan head" whatever that is...? <<

Logic dictates that it must contain a dilithium crystal matrix.

Live long and prosper.
Rob Bell

>>>
Have you had any problems, how does the engine "idle"?
What about emissions/mpg changes?
And what was the story with the fan?
<<<
First of all I must admit that I tried the setup with a K&N 57i filter... which sucks too much hot air to have a proper idle. Resulting in a very annoying idleing (too high and verrrry unstable) and a bad emission test (at idle rpm). So I switched to a closed system (PTP do recommend the ITG), but I fitted Mike Satur's Vader kit (he was at Silverstone, PTP wasn't). Solved the whole lot of probs.... good idle (bit of a gentle twin carb sound, but cool, not OTT at all) and emission tests all right (at idle and at 3000rpm). Allthough you may not forget that it is a tuned car, it is still very driveable... but I won't recommend the setup together with a ligtened flywheel.

Just after the installation the car wasn't running fine at all. Bad idle, very strange accelerating and cutting out. My local dealer said they fitted everything like described in the manual, except they didn't use a plastic T-piece at a certain stage. So after getting home (aprox. 10kms) and finally getting the car parked in the garage I started to investigate what could have been wrong. It turned out that the MAP-sensor on the EFI (ECU) board wasn't connected to the vacuum-hose. I found this problem together with PTP and they promptly send me a set of pictures and their apologies. At this stage I was able to connect the MAP-sensor to the manifold (just like it is on our standard cars).
Great service of PTP.

I was less happy when I found out that our engine bay fan wasn't working at all (making the problem with the K&N and sucking hot air even worse). The only solution I got from PTP (after several weeks) was to connect it together with the radiator fan. In that time I ordered, made and installed some electronics that takes care of the engine bay temp and the fan.
I don't think the Elise has such an engine bay fan.

During the whole operation my starter engine gave up (due to the zillion times of starting while the MAP sensor failed) and one of the gearbox cables snapped.... making it all worse.

But the car is running fine now... it's a real joy now to have the upgrade.

PS. Don't be surprised if they ask for the colour of your car when ordering one of their kits... it has to do with the color of the decal they supply.
Erik

Thanks once more Erik,

I also currently have a 57i - effective but a little crude sounding (and looking) so I will upgrade to the ITG with the kit.

As for the decals, I'll leave them off - much prefer the "stealth" look.

Greg
greg

This thread was discussed between 14/11/2004 and 19/11/2004

MG MGF Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGF Technical BBS is active now.