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MG MGF Technical - Servo Mounting Bracket Support - help please
|The (Brake) Servo Mounting Bracket Support that is shown on page 6 of the Brown and Gammons catalogue (it says 'as fitted to 'Trophy' race cars'):|
What is it supposed to do?
Does it work?
Where does it fit?
Is is easy to fit?
Anyone fitted one?
Any help would be much appreciated
|It stiffens the brake and servo assembly - if you get someone else to stand on the brakes you can see movement in this area. It is reputed to work, according to reports on here. There's a piccie on one of the F sites (Dieter's I think maybe) showing how it fits. Also a piccie and report in Safety Fast last month or the one before. Can't comment on ease of fititng - I'm waiting for better weather to fit mine :-(|
|I've only been able to find one line on fitting from Dieter in the archives, which in itself is not at all clear (sorry Dieter). Also can't find a photo of it on Dieters site.|
Any more help from anyone would be greatly appreciated
It's very sobering to open the bonnet, start the engine, and get someone to press on the brake pedal. The brake cross-over mechanism distorts the bulkhead and twists alarmingly. The servo was moved at a late stage in the F's design from its original position on the driver's side, but there's no excuse for this shoddy setup. Anyway, the braket bolts on to the servo using existing mountings but requires two 6mm holes drilling in the bulkhead to fasten the 'tail'. It should be fairly straightforward to fit and all reports are favourable. I want to see the TF setup before I get one (a bracket, that is) as MGRD might have its own solution. I live in hope!
|just would add again that this nice part must be reworked if mounted to a LHD car. (brake pedal bar interference)|
Now curious about the part number/solution for LHD Trophy MGF.
|I know its a big thing to ask but would there be any chance of anyone scanning the article in November Safety Fast and e mailing it to me? |
Does the servo have to be removed/loosened to fit it?
I have had another look at this area tonight and can't for the life of me see how the bracket pictured in the B& G catalogue would fit in that area.
Does anyone know if there is a photo of the fitted bracket on a web site anywhere?
|Is the bracket screwed or bolted to the bulkhead once the 6mm holes are drilled, (ie do you have to take the glove box out to get a nut on a bolt? Anyone know the location of the fitting on the servo itself that the other end bolts to?|
have you thought of phoning B&G and asking them :-)
|I originally asked Techspeed about the benefits of fitting one of these ... the reply was you'd get better results fitting stainless steel brake hoses. The servo bracket was only introduced after hairline fractures developed in the bulkhead from Cup Cars (after many hours of hard and fast track use). They also said it was a bit fiddly to fit - I sold my bracket.|
good to know :)
from what I understood, the bracket gets to Servo mount. One side to the U shape bracket where the servo itself is fitted (2 Bolts in slight cambered to rear direction)
The other as mentioned to the bulkhead near the steering. So why dismantle the glovebox ? Should be more the fusepanel lid.
Bolts and nuts of course to the drilled holes.
Safty Fast.... hmm... sleeps at home. Not looked up this time after I got bored from the one before ;-)
|I was given the same advice as Gaz when I asked the chaps at Techspeed about the bracket- namely that the bracket would not convey much in the way of an advantage in terms of pedal feel.|
But the difference in pedal feel between my car, fitted with braided hoses and upgraded pads/discs and a friend's who has exactly the same set up, but with the inclusion of the aforementioned bracket, is stark. Therefore I am definitely comming around to the idea of fitting one just to see what effect this bracket has (but there are plenty of other reasons why pedal feel may alter from car to car).
Erm, Paul, that article from SF in November. Oh dear. It isn't very long, the picture was printed upside down... and here it is:
If you open your bonnet and ask someone to press the brake pedal you will see to your amazement that the whole bulkhead flexes.
This is easy to rectify and will take less than an hour so it's well worth performing the upgrade. The bracket is available from B&G so give them a call.
Here is the fitting method:-
1. Remove he passenger seat parcel shelf
2. Bolt the bracket to the master cylinder
3. Fit the remaining bolt through the bulkhead - you will need a third hand here to hold the spanner.
4. Replace the parcel shelf
5 Test with your helper
The result is not only a firmer brake pedal but the bulkhead does not flex.
Unfortunately there appear to be a significant number of steps MISSING between step 1 and step 2! Minor things like removing the bonnet shroud, drilling some holes... things like that.
Taking the instructions at face value, it does seem to be a simple procedure which doesn't *seem* to require disturbing the master cylinder.
Paul, if you do fit the bracket, let us all know how it is done? I may get one from Malcolm anyway, and I'd be interested for one!
|I wonder if this flexing in the area has anything to do with the seam breakages that caused the cracking noise in Dieter's car?|
"Movement" on joints/welds is never a good idea...
What does the team think? Does the bracket help prevent the weld being streigned?
I don't know to what degree a 'cure' is effected by fitting the servo bracket, but surely anything that reduces the bulkhead flex must be a good thing for both the bulkhead and the brakes.
One (of the many) things that surprised me on a track day in a VVC with ABS was that when doing my version of the last of the late brakers I was revving the engine as I braked. Even with that high brake pedal I was pushing down on the accelerator pedal as well. I also do this on the rare occasions I brake hard in my own car, but it isn't present under normal road use. It appears that after the initial (and quite sufficient) pedal pressure is applied further pedal movement is gained by the bulkhead flexing. I don't want that.
Anyway, if you have any feel for engineering try the 'open the bonnet and get a friend to press the brake pedal' test, and then tell me if you're laughing or crying.
|Got the bracket today.|
Thanks for the Safety Fast instructions Rob, do you think that the 'passenger seat parcel shelf' is the glove box?
Spoke to B & G about fitting it when I ordered it (it was the only one they had in stock). They had no idea and had never fitted one. They told me there were no fitting instructions, however when i pressed the point they went away and found some in a cabinet, (this has happened to me before when instructions have had to come from the 'cabinet').
The instructions include a diagram which is total rubbish. It just indicates the bolts on the servo to which bracket should be connected and does not show the bracket at all. However the bolts indicated are on the battery side of the servo and would be impossible to connect into, also it shows the bar from the brake pedal mechanism coming in from the battery side too. At first I thought the sketch was a mirror image but the actual details shown on the servo vacuum housing are the right way round. So it appears to be complete rubbish.
However, looking at the bracket it is pretty obvious that there is only one place it will fit and that is on the washer bottle side of the existing servo mount. At least this side you would have a chance to drill the holes through the bulk head. However this raises another puzzle which is suggested by the written instruction which I have reproduced below.
"Remove two bolts from the inboard side of the servo mounting (see diagram [as i say diagram does not show this...PM]). Using these bolts secure the servo brace to the servo mounting. Drill through the servo brace into the bulkhead with an 8.5mm drill. Then using the doubler plate on the inside of the bulkhead, secure with the nuts and bolts supplied"
Anybody any idea what the 'doubler plate' is? It is not a part supplied with the bracket? Anybody know if the bulkhead is double skinned at a point about 100-120mm below the drivers side end of the heater air box housing (ie just to the LHS of the exsting servo mount when viewed from the front), this is where the holes will have to be drilled though.
Sorry Dieter, regarding your comment:
"The other as mentioned to the bulkhead near the steering. So why dismantle the glovebox ? Should be more the fusepanel lid"
Not sure what you are on about as the bracket braces the exisiting servo mounting which is on the passenger side of a right hand drive car (and also LHD?). If i've confused what you are saying then please let me know what you meant
Any more help would be greatly appreciated...*grin*.
|Paul, I am pretty sure that the 'passenger side parcel shelf' is indeed the glove box.|
The diagrams and 'fitting instructions' that B&G found for you do make some sense- IF you were fitting it to a MGF Cup car! In these race machines, the servo is actually mounted on the driver's side rather than on the passenger's side of the bulkhead... so this probably explains the discrepencies.
It sounds to me as though the bracket supplied by B&G is not the complete kit (which hopefully is still available through MG Sport and Racing, seeing as though you have the last one from B&G!!! LOL).You probably need to make up a suitable plate of your own, to dissapate the loads placed on the bracket away from the 8.5 mm holes in the bulk head (you don't want those bolts pulling through the bulkhead over time). As to what dimentions this strengthening plate should have, and how thick the material should be I have no idea. Bigger the better (within reason!) I'd have thought. I guess the principle is similar to the seat belt strengthening plates...
If you still have the instructions Paul (such as they are! ;o) could you fax or scan it to me?
|A little side note ... when I spoke to Techspeed they said it was a two man job to fit the bracket ... |
I'm sorry, should talk about LHD cars only :))
Your absolutely right about it.
Anyway, I read very interested. At last I get sure now why the mad brake light switch gets out of right adjustment if the pedal gets kicked hard. (Brake lights on then). All stuff gets bended 'on block'.
'doubler plate' is IMO just a plate to double up the existing material from the bulkhead. If missed, then I would DIY a steel sheet metal plate 2.5++ mm thick, drill two 10 mm holes and use it as 'washer' on the inner side.
remove the dots in your mind.
O = 10mm hole
Just to explain what I mean
|Err, I give in ;)|
RH side with (I) should be the right boarder.
|Rob, thanks for the info about the MGF cup cars, so B&G are not totally mad...*grin*.|
I agree with your and Dieters comments about having to fabricate a plate on the inside, makes sense. I had thought about big washers but the holes are only 27mm centre to centre so the max washers diameter would be about 24mm. A fabricated plate would be better.
Thanks for your comment Gaz about being a two man job, the securing bolts don't have a hex head and have to be turned by a big allen key so you would have to have someone securing the hex nuts inside the car while the bolts are screwed up under the bonnet or vice-versa.
I actually came on here tonight to find Techspeeds number to give them a ring in the morning to ask them about fitting. I guess at worst they can tell me to get stuffed...*grin*.
|In case you haven't got their number Paul, it is 01926 632 066|
|More puzzlement on my part. The mechanic at my local dealer who used to work on their former MGF cup car tells me that the bracket fits on the inboard (washer bottle side) of the existing servo mount on a standard road car. However when i rung Techspeed they told me that the bracket fits on the outboard side (battery side) of the servo on a road car, thus making the installation very difficult (drilling the holes).|
Rob which side of the servo is the bracket shown in the upside down photo in Safety Fast?
Any body who has had the bracket fitted to their road car, which side of the exsting servo mount is your bracket?
The local mechanic told me he used large washers on interior of the bukhead (re 'doubler plate question'), however he thought that fabricating a plate would be even better. Techspeed didn't know anything about a 'doubler plate' being fitted.
|To add to the discussion the MGF Cup car build notes (1998) indicate that the LHD brake set up is applied to the right side of the car, therefore providing almost direct action between brake pedal and servo/master cyl. The crossbar is reversed and retained. All the changes are incorporated and covered by a suitable kit of parts. |
|Roger, are the cup cars RHD? If so then the pedal and servo on the cup cars are both on the same side is that what you are saying, as i think Rob indicated earlier, (LHS as vieiwed from the front). Questions this if so, why is the crossbar retained, and why is the cup car configuration not on RHD road cars?|
I think maybe the techspeed speed guy was refering in his mind to the cup car when he said which side of the sevo the braket is installed, although i explained it was a road car and her said he had fitted them to road cars.
On my standard RHD road car, when the pedal is pressed the inboard side (side nearest washer bottle) of the servo mount distorts more then the outboard side (the crossbar comes from in board direction of course). Therefore it seems best to try to fix the bracket to inboard side of the servo mount, if it will fit. What are other peoples observations of this flex? do you you agree that the inboard side of the mount flexes most? Do you care...*grin*, i'm starting not to!
Anybody want a bracket...*grin*?
|just found some pictures of the bracket.|
Don't scalp me, but I am still also on what Joe says. *will fit to the inboard side*
And anyway due to RHD or LHD road cars.
As mentioned before, at LHD cars it doesn't fit without reworking the lower border of the bracket. Interference to the pipe mechanics of the LHD car pedals on the other side.
Someone may look at the pictures and confirm or not, that its the same from B&G.
Looked for pictures from the cup race cars and found these both from our visit at Techspeed (Spa cup race 2000). Added them to above site.
do you recall when I took this pics there ? You mentioned this could relate the race cars mods.
Sorry, not much to see but a partnumber and the existance of the bar mechanics.
Can't recall any existance of the LHD race car.
Nice puzzle :)
|Thankyou for the photos Dieter. Yes that is the bracket. Unfortunately the other two views aren't much help, the photo of the 'race car LHS of the brake servo' doesn't show the bracket as i understand the bracket is mounted on the other side of the exsting mounting on the cup car (inboard) and the 'race car, LHS of the bonnet with bar' doesn't show the bracket because its the wrong end of the bar (for a cup car). Good try though and interesting photos.|
|Rob, when you're next on will you have a look at the that question from above about the photo in Safety Fast.|
All the descriptions I have read and seen show the bracket fitted on the inboard side of the servo on RHD road cars. I don't think it is physically possible to fit the bracket on the outside of the servo, but I may be wrong. I haven't seen the Cup Car setup, but I guess the crossbar is retained just to operate the servo without having to manufacture separate parts. From Dieter's Cup Car photos the bracket seems to be fitted on the outside, and seems to be an entirely different design from that shown in the B&G catalogue.
The servo was moved on road cars as it caused problems in crash testing with the crumple zone. It was pushing back high up in the car and forcing the steering column aside. I think the car (and driver) would be in a parlous state if it had crumpled that far, but that's another matter.
|Thanks for the info Kes. Yes, i think it must fit on the inboard side.|
This afternoon i tried bolting on the bracket to see where the holes would have to be drilled in the bulkhead. Look like they are going to be difficult as thay are in direct line with what may be a brake-balancer or just some sort of brake pipe connector. Unfortunately the holes in the bracket don't line up too well with the mountings on the servo support so in trying to bolt it in place it crossthreaded one of the bolts and I thought i'd damaged one the captive nuts. Luckily once the bracket was removed again i managed to get the two bolts back in swapping top to bottom, but it was touch and go. I've decided to leave the damn thing until i am better.
|Hi Paul, |
I managed to acquire the aforementioned bracket over the weekend, so now I am even more interested in this fitting shenanigan ;o)
First confirmation that the Cup cars were all RHD, and the brake servo is also mounted on the right hand side (Dieter- yes, remember very well crawling over Techspeed's brilliantly prepared Cup cars! very interesting wasn't it! BTW, I know of one of these for sale, if you're interested- 10k GBP! ;o)
I wasn't aware of the crash impact reason for relocating the servo (why isn't the servo on the opposite side on LHD cars?) but I guess this isn't an issue on Cup cars as they are not road legal...
The photo in SF, Paul, seems to show the bracket mounted on the inside of the servo (ie NOT on the battery side). I've chatted to the chaps at TS about the bracket before, and they were very unkeen on the idea of these- but if they fit the bracket on the offside, maybe this is the explanation for the reticence? I chatted to Malcolm on Saturday about his Trophy race car, but completely forgot to mention the bracket- D'oh!!! But I think that he'd be a good person to discuss the bracket fitment with.
I'll try and scan the image for you Paul and send it to you- could you give me your e-mail address?
Very interested to read your observations regarding the bulkhead flex on the inside of the bracket. Seems to me then that it would be most logical to fit the bracket on this side since this is the side that clearly requires the most support. That it is also the most accessible is a real bonus!!! :o) Worrying note about the location of the brake pipes however- the picture in SF was not clear on this area.
|Rob, thanks for your comments, very useful. Please send the photo along if you get chance. I'll be interested to see how you get on with fitting the bracket...*g*, especially how you manage to drill the holes and what is on the inside at this point!|
On my car with the wife pressing the brake pedal as hard as she can, (she’s 5ft and 8 stone) the inboard side of the servo mounting distorts about 5mm, and its pretty obvious that a securely fitted bracket on this side would stop.
When I tried to fit my bracket yesterday i had problems with lining up the bracket holes with the two parts of the existing servo support. When the existing tapered bolts are removed the two parts of the existing mounting pry themselves apart, (the bolts either locate into captured nuts on the inner section of the mounting (which you can't see) or into a tapped section of the sheet steel of the inner section of the existing mounting). When trying to get the bolts back in, with or without the bracket, its difficult to line up the two holes in the inner and outer parts of the existing mounting leading to the bolt (which is very coarse threaded) going in at an angle and in my case stripping a little of the thread off the end of one bolt.
I ended up putting plenty of light on the job and climbing right under the bonnet so I could push the vacuum housing (black round thing?!) in with my knee to try to get the holes to line up while I put in the bolt with some end pressure on the ratchet. At this point the wife spotted me and said "get out of that car at once as you are supposed to sick", or words to that effect! After I explained to her that the car was knackered if I couldn't get the bolts back in I was allowed to proceed to continue swearing whilst finally getting the bolts in. However now banned from working on said bracket until I get back to work.
So, good luck Rob and keep me posted..*smile*.
Rob, LHD cars also have a brake crossover mechanism and the servo on the right-hand side, according to what info I can find. I'm sure Dieter or somebody with a LHD car can confirm this. There's a lot of people interested in this, so can you look at the bracket in your friend's car to see how it's fitted? (I guess if this were so easy you would have already done it.) Failing that, has anyone here fitted one of these devious brackets, and if so, how? I wonder who owns the car pictured in Safety Fast, and will he/she talk?
|I have one of these in my LHD car. It needed a bit of rework to accomodate for the |
brake crossover bar, but installed very easy once this was solved.
Installation is very easy, you mount it to the Brake Server on the right side (seen from
the front) using two original screws. The bracket then needs two holes through the
bulkhead, simply use the installed bracket as a guide for the 8.5mm drill. Finally mount
the bracket using the supplied screws to the bulkhead (I did not receive a separate
reinforcement plate to use on the inside of the bulkhead, but will add one soon).
I thought I had some pictures of the installation, but could not find them :-(
|Andreas, on your car what was on the inside of the car near where the holes were drilled through? Did anything except the glovebox and the plastic pipe connecting the external airbox to internal heater need removing to access the inside of the holes. Also did you find any of the brake pipe connectors were in the way of drilling the hole? (that is you had to use an extra long drill bit)?|
Did you fit the bracket yourself Andreas?
|Hi Kes, you are quite right about the servo on LHS cars- looked at the pictures on Dieter's site: http://www.mgfcar.de/stau_box/index.htm|
Unfortunately, most of the folk with this bracket fitted had them installed for them, so no hints from these sources. Malcolm Gammons himself may be the best source of information for this I suspect.
Andreas, if you have any details on the modification you needed to perform on the bracket, could you let me know? I suspect that we may need to perform something similar to get the bracket to fit on the 'wrong' side of the servo... or maybe not (what do you think Paul?)
I did not remove the glovebox or any pipes inside of the car. IIRC I used rather long drill,
but nothing unusual. I even used a simply battery driven drill for it ;-)
reworking the bracket for LHD simply means you remove a semi circle from the bracket
where it interferes with the crossover bar for the brake pedal.
I don't think you can rework it to fit on the outside of the brake servo. IIRC, the angle of
the bracket needs to completly change for this.
|Thanks for the info Andreas.|
Paul- D'oh! Sorry, I keep forgetting to bring the SF with me to work so I can scan it for you... tomorrow I'll try to remember.
|Rob, from the looks of the bracket when i tried it last weekend it wont be necessary to take a chunk out of it to accomodate the bar, it looks ok as is.|
Also Andreas made a good point about it fitting on both sides of the servo, you wouldn't think it would, connecting to two totally different points on the bulkhead. However again from only the quick look i had it looks like the bulkhead for a RHD car curves around nicely to provide a flat bit of bulkhead at the right angle for the bracket to bolt to. One point is that the the bracket is not symetrical, depending on which side of the servo it was fixed the mounting point on the bulkhead is either up or down slightly, on a RHD car mounted in-board the mounting hole as 'up'. As the mounting on Andreas' car would be 'down' this might have been why he could get away without removing anything from the inside to get to the bolts and why he has less problems with the brake pipes getting in the way.
|Paul, remembered to bring the mag in with me today. I've scanned it and posted it here: http://www.mgf.4mg.com/servo_bracket.html|
(Now let's see how soon I use up my bandwdth quota this month! ;o))
Clearly shows where you might run into trouble with respect to those pipes and unions. However, no modifications to the bracket appear necessary. Should be a doodle were it not for those pipes... :o/
|Thanks for the photo Rob, useful.|
|>Now let's see how soon I use up my bandwdth quota this month! ;o))|
By godness :)
Rob this Bitmap is more then 2 Megs !!! Please replace asap.
I converted to JPG and just resent to your old email adress.
|Managed to fit the servo support bracket this week. Fitting instruction to follow tomorrow for anyone interested.|
|Yes please (must get round to fitting ours soon !)|
This thread was discussed between 21/01/2002 and 07/02/2002
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