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MG MGF Technical - T bar cutting and xtra speakers

Has any Mk I owner cut their T bar and installed xtra speakers. If so how did you cut it ? Does Mike Satur offer a cutting service ?

Also for the ICE tuners out there if I wnat to replace the speaker wire do I have to cut and join at the loom connector or can all the original wire be removed from the connector itself ? That is can I insert the new wire into the connector ?

Gaz
P15VVC
Gaz

Hi Gaz

The T- bar can be easily cut with just about any sharp object you care to mention- it is constructed from compressed foam covered in a more rigid plastic.
Probably the best way to make a hole is to pre-drill a guid hole, and then make the apperature for the speaker with a jig-saw.

I think that Mike Satur was considering doing this as a service- or at least marketing a speaker kit for the T-bar, but has other options up his sleave from what I remember.

The other ICE I shall leave to the expert (Sarah!)

Rob
Rob Bell

Gaz, the neatest way is to remove the original terminals from the connector and crimp (using a very good crimping tool) the new speaker cables onto new terminals (these terminals can be hard to get hold of, but are available from specialist cable/wiring companies). The only problem with this way is actually getting decent speaker cable to fit properly in the crimp and then into the connector shell.

If you intend to wire the extra, rear, speakers as well then you will need extra terminals for the connector as well.

If you are going to fit an amp, to drive the new speakers, then fitting the new cable to the old connector shouldn't be needed.
Sarah

Thanks you two. I think I'll try the cutting this weekend. I'll be putting in JBL's all round. Power Series 632s in the front. These have removable tweeters which can be secured separately via an extra and optional crossover kit (door handles at a later point in time). Plus GTO 5x7s I think in the back. Speaker cable is going to be a hi-fi job either QED or IXOS depending on diameters available. No sep amp just hooked up to the SONY MD unit.

Gaz
P15VVC
Gaz

Gaz,

Its actually pretty straight forward. There's some MG websites with instructions on taking off the T-bar. Also check the archives. I think I might still have instructions emailed to me by a very helpful MGF BBS member.

I had installed some rear speakers (DIY) around x-mas time. As Rob mentioned, the bar is made of foam with some type of covering. The plastic/ vinyl? cover is easy to cut through. Just be careful of speaker placement if you are installing speakers with a lot depth. Also the T-bar is not flat, so again you need to be careful of the placement otherwise they'll look awkward. Using the templates which came with the speaker, I simply marked the holes, penciled in the template cut-out, and then proceeded to use a hand drill around the outline. Then used a hand jig-saw to play a little connect the dots... Take your time and do it right the first time. I don't think you want to find out how much a new t-bar would cost from rover...

I didn't have the right wrench for removing the seatbelts from the seats (to fully free the t-bar), so I ended pulling the T-bar back to the boot which was covered with a blanket. Not the best workbench, but I was too lazy to drive back to the hardware store for the right wrench.

My Sony head unit has separate connections for rear speakers, so the wiring was straight forward. Nothing fancy like surround sound or DSP, just a simple fade control (front-rear). But I must admit the sound improvement is noticeable. Without getting into any scientific acoustic techo-babble, you get a fuller sound, especially with the top down. The one improvement that could be made with the rear speakers is to make some kind of enclosement to improve the bass response. the back of the t-bar opens up to engine compartment...

Mike
Mike

Gaz, as you appear to have a Sony MD unit it may be better to simplify the speaker wiring that you currently have. There will be a connector, which plugs into the back of the head unit, that then plugs into the ISO connector.

A better route would be to not use the ISO connector for the speaker connections, but take the new speaker connections directly to the cableing that plugs into the head unit. This cuts out a set of connections.

I will be fitting a Sony MD unit, sometime next week, to someones vehicle. I will have a look at the contacts in the connector and see if I can get them on their own.

You may want to consider restricting the higher frequencies which go to the T-Bar, this will then enhance the overall bass response but still give a stereo image from the front speakers.

There will be someone coming to the MGF ICE day on the 29th April, at Kimber house, who has fitted speakers into their T-Bar!, as well as me dribbling on about replacement speakers, head units etc.
Sarah

I'm wondering if T-bar speakers improve or deteriorate the overall sound quality...
Don't they "cut" the stereo image, as you have one speaker just behind your head ?
They are compact midrange/tweeter unit ; one can imagine they don't sound as good as 6.5" mid (doors) + separate tweeter combo's...
Fabrice

Fabrice,

That was my concern as well about the stereo imaging. However, I do find the head rests block a lot of the direct sound. Also, the speaker fader button on my head unit leans more to the front speakers. Its kind of like setting up a home theater system in your living room. You don't set the speaker level for the rear so loud that it detracts from the main speakers. The sound coming from my t-bar speakers is subtle. No way does it sound like I've got a boombox sitting behind my head! My suggestion is, sneak into a Rover dealer and try to listen to the stereo on the 2000 model. The only change I might consider is to cut out the higher frequencies to the rear speakers(as suggested by Sarah).

Just remember, the F is a convertible and there is only so much you can do to improve the sound!

Cheers,

Mike

PS benefits of T-bar speakers are lost if you are constantly hitting 6rpm or higher with a K&N cone filter installed!!!
Mike

Thanks Mike,

the fader adjustment is one thing, but ideally, the balance has to be adjustable separately front & rear (like home theater systems, to continue the parallel).
It's possible with a DSP unit, I think...

off topic, a few month ago, some people were planning to build a subwoofer unit to be fitted under (or inside ?) the dash. I think Andy "Scarlet Fever" talked about it. I like the idea of not taking space behind the seat. And as I have a unused 4x80w amp ...
Are they any news ?

Fabrice
Fabrice

Andy has fitted his sub in the dash- but the installation needs development. Unfortunately, I am not sure that Andy has had the time recently to invest in sorting things out.

Basically the idea is, I think, sound (no pun intended). The dash is a large open space that may well make for an ideal sub enclosure. However, the material that the dashboard moulding is made from is far from ideal. I suspect that a sound deadening material (like Brown Bread etc.) on the inside of the dash would improve matters markedly... But no one has tried this yet, so it remains to be heard whether a sub in this position can be made to work well.

Rob
Rob Bell

Thanks Rob.
Were is the sub in the dash ?
Fabrice

I´ve asked at the dealer and the T bar with speakers from MGF MK2 will cost aroud 330 £! :o( It´s not a priority...!! :o)
Bruno Valadas

My main reason for fitting the xtra speakers was as a result of having a Mk II as a courtesy car. Of all the changes in the Mk II I thought the fuller sound from the ICE to be the most important. Anyway I'll let you all know how I get on ... Thanks all. Mike you echoed my concerns about the curve on the T bar as well as the enclosures for the speakers ... I'll be back if I run into trouble.
Gaz

Fabrice, Andy has mounted the sub above the glove box, the cone facing downwards. At the moment it is not rigidly mounted- which is part of the problem. Having said that, it wouldn't be difficult to build a frame to which would could rigidly fix a sub in this position...

Rob
Rob Bell

I fitted a pair of Kenwood KFC-4675 4x6 2-way speakers into the T bar of my 97F last year After a fair bit of research and taking measurements on the car I chose the Kenwoods for their combination of size (especially depth and distance between mounting holes) and the fact that they came with good looking grilles that i could get to mount relatively flush to the surface of the T-bar. Front mounted larger speakers, with larger grilles i couldn't get to sit flush enough against the curved profile of the T-bar, but this is only relevant if you are front mounting the speakers. I believe Mike Satur's installation mounts the speakers in enclosures from behind the T-bar and uses the yr2000 plastic grilles resessed into the front of the MK1 T-bar to cover them. (Beware fouling engine cover if useing rear enclosures though, make sure the cover can be moved enough to enable it to be removed, i would guess Mike has this sussed though knowing him).

I must admit fitting took me longer than i had invisaged. To remove the T-bar i had to release the seat belt from its side mounting on the seat. There was insufficent space to get my socket on the bolt so to get it off I removed the driver's seat, this was before realising i could remove the bolt on the passenger's seat without removing it if i used a lash up of the hex-socket and grips. As i guessed, refitting the driver's seat was tedious.

Once the T-Bar is removed (see other instruction in archive) its just a case of carefully marking and cutting (drilling and saw blade like Mike), avoiding mounting the speakers to foul anything on the rear deck (bolts for access lid etc). In my case the nearest part of the oval cut for each speaker was 8" from the centre of the T-bar, (this is unfortunately not symetrical behind the head restraint, but look and sounds ok). The bottom mounting holes were drilled 27mm above the bottom of the T-bar, this was about the best compromise between not fouling anything and still being able to mount the speaker grilles relatively flush (perhaps a 2mm gap at the top, but not noticable). As the T-bar has a thick foam backing to the plastic surface when a hole is cut this provides plenty of depth for the speaker before it protrudes onto the rear deck. I fitted the speakers from the front covered by the grilles.

I ran the new speaker wire required down behind the centre cubbies (easy once the T-bar is removed) and along the centre console to the Stereo. The wires can be guided along once the interior light pannel, ashtray, and the removable cassete stowage box in the centre console have been removed.

I had already upgraded the stereo so had rear speaker connections, these have to be fitted if you are still using the MG radio.

I've found the sound with the new speakers is fuller and more pleasant as Gaz has descibed in the Yr2000 model. Big rear volumes are not necessary.

Paul

I have a couple of photos of my rear speaker installation. If any one would like them just give me their mail address.
Paul

I have put a couple of the pictures that Paul sent me some while back onto the web:

http://www.crosswinds.net/members/~mgfgallery/Audio/T-bar_speakers.htm

Paul, if you have any installation notes/ tips, let me know, and I'll append it to this page.

Rob
Rob Bell

Paul,

Any pics gratefully accepted at garryr@mail.com

Cheers

Gaz
Gaz

Total memory lapse!! Apologizes to Paul for not crediting him with the helpful instructions and photos he sent me.

Does anyone have pictures of the speaker enclosures Mike Satur uses for his installation?

Mike
Mike

Gaz the photos i have are the ones on Rob's site, hope they are useful.

Rob thanks for putting the photos up...appreciated. The only hints and tips i could suggest would be to cut and paste the instructions from this thread below the photos.

Mike...no problem at all, really glad you found the instructions and photos useful, thats why i sent them. What size speakers did you fit, did you manage to get larger ones than me to fit and look ok? When i was last at Mike's he had what looked like some rear speaker enclosures lying around (it like an Aladdin’s cave for F'ers in there...*grin*), they looked like boxes made out of MDF. How the speakers were mounted i didn't go into too much because i thought they are his ideas and rightly he'll want to make money out of them.
Paul

Just a quick question/Suggestion.(which could be rubbish-so ignore if it is).
Could you fix the speakers to a wooden board and lay it in the hood space. If you added a miltiplug of some sorts you could remove in in the event that you would need to access the engine.

It shouldn't effect the sound or the hood.

What do you guys/Girls think?

lister

Sounds like a potentially very good idea Lister. Two problems though- both relating to the stowing of the hood:

1. Where does the hood lie in the recess has been filled with speaker enclosure? Presumably one would need to be careful with the shape of the box. My fear is that one would run out of usable space?

2. With the hod thrown back, mighten the sounds be muffled, or worse, lost in the slip stream?

I think that these problems could be addressed, along with the obvious security issues associated with a removable pancel panel that is open to thieving fingers. I look forward to the finished product!

Paul, I have cut and pasted your fitting suggestions onto http://www.crosswinds.net/members/~mgfgallery/Audio/T-bar_speakers.htm

Have a look and let me know if you are happy with them.

Cheers

Rob
Rob Bell

Hey i'm copyrighting this idea!!

What a bout angling the speaker so the sound goes forward and uses the box as a bass-box ( couldn't think of calling it anything else). The angle could be such that the hood lies on top of the box thus hiding the exsistance of the seakers.
They would have to be quite small speakers.

Sarah what do you think.
Could be covered in that fabric that covers most of the large "boy racers sound systems" seen at so many in car hi fi shows.

lister

I seem to remember that the rear screen lies on the 'parcel shelf' so you would need to to make sure that speaker grills were made of a soft material to avoid scratches to the rear screen.

Ted
Ted Newman

Thanks Rob, that looks great, the only thing i thought might be worth changing which was my fault anyway was the dimension 8" talked about, do you think 200mm might be more 21st century?...*g*.

Is there a link to the audio info and the other stuff in you 'parent directory' from your main site (technical section?), if so i missed it...which is very possible.
Paul

The speaker grills could be place almost vertical leaving the top(sloping ) surface for the hood to rest on.
lister

No, there isn't a direct link *yet* with the main site- but it looks as though there will be soon!!!

I have plans to put info on my own amp and speaker installation on this site too. As you remember, I was also thinking of speakers in the T-bar- part of the reason for opting to purchase a 5 channel amp... ;o)
Having said that, having driven a couple fo Mk2's now, I am still far from totally convinced with the install- which perhaps more to do with a mediocre Rover HiFi attempt than something intrinsically wrong with the idea!

Are you planning to be at Silverstone Paul? Sound off time!!! ;o)

Rob
Rob Bell

Rob, where abouts did you install your amp?
Sarah

Using the shelf would make it a little harder to get at the engine. Not many places to put speakers or much else in an F :-).
Tony Smith

Lister, the problem you will have will be the depth required for the speakers themselves. Thats if you use anything decent.

I have seen an MGF where someone put an amp on the shelf. They could only use it with the hood up!

One idea you can borrow Lister, is to get one of the Rally style passenger footplates and mount a bass speaker behind that. You could even have matching pedals and a drivers footrest.
Sarah..FAO Lister

Would it sound any good with a couple of, say mid range speakers in the rear? and a bias towards the front of the car?

lister =:-0
lister

Ok folks I have conceded to my ears rather than my wallet and opted for the Infinity Kappa speakers for the fronts.

Quick question for the ICE maiden herself - how can I securely attach the new speakers to the original speaker housings. Do I have to glue them in ??

On another note I had the pleasure of another courtesy *F* yesterday - checked out the performance of the rear speakers ... they really are cr*p (if listened to on their own). I'm sure these must be the cheapest speakers available. Yet they do make a great deal of difference.

I need to get hold of some felt or sound deadening material. Any recommendations ??

Another issue that concerns me is after removing the door trim water appears to soak into the inner side of the trim material. I have sprayed the lower portion of the door trim with an acrylic conformal coating so as to give it some waterproofing properties. I hope this works.

Gaz
P15VVC
Gaz

Gaz i made new 18mm thick MDF mounts for my new door speakers, they were the same overall shape as the plastic Rover surrounds, but were much stiffer and the new speakers could be screwed directly to them. I spoke to Sarah before doing this, she had similar MDF mounts made the only difference i think was that she had cut up the existing Rover mounts so that she could stick the water protection cowl from the Rover mounts on the back of the new MDF mounts.

I stuck 'Brown Bread' bitumen based sound deadening material in double thinkness on the inner and outer door skins, (though i think Sarah prefers the more expensive Dynamat). Not sure how much difference this makes to the music sound but the door shut with a 'thunk' now!
Paul

Sarah, I haven't fitted it yet- it is on the list of "things to do on the car", but the plan is to locate it on an MDF shelf above the glove box (and therefore out of sight inside the dash).

Sarah, you've got Infinity Kappas haven't you? They are the ones I heard at Brooklands- and sounded terrific... you have persuaded me to go and buy these me-thinks! (Just like Gaz!)

Rob
Rob Bell

Gaz, I have seen speakers glued to the original plastic housings, but that was when they had fallen off!. The best way is to cut the plastic mount, just in front of the flange, and bond this to a 18mm thick MDF mount (varnished when complete). This makes a very secure mount, it positions the speaker close to the inner trim panel and stills gives protection from the water falling inside the door. There should be an article in the next MG World, or if you can't wait I can e-mail you some photo's of what to do.

The Infinity's are very good speakers, Martin Woods now has some in his car as well. The Infinity club is growing in strength!
Sarah

Cheers Sarah, I did actually remove the old speakers from their housings - quite easy really. Fitted the new ones by screewing them onto the plastic. I then mounted the whole thing back onto the door frame but placed rubber washers on each screw between the housing and frame. This has helped reduce the vibrations of the wing mirrors considerably. I can't praise these speakers enuff they really are good. Infinity Kappa 652.1i and at 110GBP they weren't too expenive. I'm going to fit 4x6 Kappa's in the T bar next. Don't think I'll need a sub - bass extension is tremendous. Highly recommended !!!

Gaz
P15VVC
Gaz

For anyone who wonders, the Infinity Kappa 60.1cs and the Infinity Kappa 652.1cs are basically the same speaker (a common cone size) but the 60.1 is a 16cm fitting and the 652.1 is a 16.5cm fitting. They share commone cones and come with the same Tweeters and Crossovers.

If you do intend to bolt them into the original mounts then you will need the 652.1.

The other method of making a MDF mount and bonding the rear section of the plastic mount, will give a more solid mount. But this does involve some work in making the mount. For this option you can use either the 652.1 or the 60.1.

For sound deadening any of the better materials are quite good, but the more 'solid' sheets of bitumen are not as effective. Dynamat is very good, but I have found 'Roadkill' at £15 sheet from Maplin a very similiar product, but a lot cheaper. There are other similiar products as well.
Sarah

Gaz, if you take any pictures of the installation of those 6x4's, could I have a copy, and can I post it on the web?

Plus, I'd be *very* interested to hear how good the whole thing sounds (exceptionally good, I am sure!). Going to Silverstone?

Cheers

Rob
N7 RMB
Rob Bell

Rob, I'm going to take a series of photos quite soon ... I'll let u have them. When is Silverstone ??

Gaz
Gaz

Silverstone is the weekend of the 17th June

Stefan
Stefan Gibney

Cheers Gaz!

As Stephan says, Silverstone is over the weekend of the 17th June- see you (and the all rest of you) there?

Rob
N7 RMB
Rob Bell

This thread was discussed between 25/04/2000 and 04/05/2000

MG MGF Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGF Technical BBS is active now.