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MG MGF Technical - TF oil cooler

Can anybody point to a picture of the oil cooler fitter to the TF?

Who is it made by KTM?

Cheers
Steve Ratledge

Been meaning to host an image on the website for ages Steve, but yes, I've got a picture that Roger Parker sent me - I'll send you a copy.

As to who manufactures it - not sure - it's pretty generic. Mocal, I think, do something similar.
Rob Bell

Give think automotive a ring they may be able to help,

Think automotive
292 worton rd
isleworth
tw7 6el
0208-568-1172
I fitted an oil cooler with thermostat to my k-series,they provided the unions hoses and thermostat,but i bought a 13 row oil cooler(made by think automotive)for about £13
less from



Moss EUROPE
Hampton farm ind est
Hampton rd west
Hanworth
Middx
0208-867-2020

mosspart number is ara221
Simon

Sounds like a very good idea!
particularly if you are having a long blast overseas in it! It would act like a second radiator keeping the engne col, and could help no end with cooling issues for F's
Neil

Can you send me a pic of the oil cooler please Rob.
Jim Kenny

I have had the TF160 oil cooler retro-fitted to my 1998 MGF VVC. It's not a task that Tech-speed would particularly want to do again! It took some time - relocating the coils and finding a suitable oil temp sender, since the wiring harness had changed between the F and the TF160 here! More details from Tech-speed themselves.

However, it works well. Faster warm up (water heats oil) and oil temp now maxing out at 130 on a track day where it used to reach 150 before.

I'll post some pictures shortly.
Dave Livingstone

Nice one Simon - I was trying to think of Think Automotive as a source of Mocal oil coolers, thanks. They're fairly competitive.

Best oil cooler option, from what I've read, is the Mocal Laminova - but naturally, it's also the most expensive by some margin... :o/

Jim - picture on it's way.
Rob Bell

Don't think it's reasonable to retrofit the original TF oilcooler.

http://www.mgfcar.de/mgtf/mgtf160_oilcooler.jpg
The same pic from Roger ?

I'd go for the Laminova if i'd have an engine with 160bhp++ and frequent track day visits :)

HTH
Dieter

Dieter K.

I have the Mocal Laminova fitted.

My experiences are as follows:
- Oil doesn't really get warm faster (perhaps 30 seconds)
(Haven't test in Winter yet)
- "Cooling" is around (-10C)-(15C) over standard nothing more. As far as I can tell.

- Standart: 135C easily
- Air/Oil Cooler 88C thermostat (oil between 90C-100C)
- Water/Oil cooler plus the Dave andrews head, manifold, cams... 120-130..around 100-110 when driving slowly.

The only real advantage I see are C.Head / Engine temperature being more equal. Worth the money ? You decide.
T

Dieter, yes, that's the same oil cooler picture that Rog sent to me :o)

I agree with your comments too regarding its fitment - although if purchased very cheaply, it can make a lot of sense. But as Dave will tell you, it is not necessarily all that straightforward on a VVC because you have to relocate the coil packs.

Thanks for your impressions of the Mocal Thierry. I personally do think that there is considerable merit in fitting these - especially on tuned engines. The case is less convincing on essentially standard 1.8MPis where oil temperatures, even on track, seem rarely to creep higher than 130 or so... But the concept of equalising oil and water temperatures is a good one.

One day, one day...
Rob Bell

So is this a tricky task guys?
making it not really worth it?
Neil

More a case of cost/benefit Neil.

You have a 1.8i - therefore oil temperatures never really get excessive. So an oil cooler would, for 99% of the time, be pointless.

However,

1. your oil warms up much faster - a real boon for a car driven on frequent short journeys - or warming up prior to your track day session.
2. Your oil and water temperatures will be more closely matched - meaning less of a heat gradient through the engine - which may benefit gasket survival.
3. On those long, hard tracks, you wont get oil degradation through overheating.

If all that is worth the cost and potential hastle in installation to you, then go for it! :o)
Rob Bell

What water path is the cooler inserted into?
Will Munns

The main return pipe from the Radiator. Looked into the cooling circuit yesterday, didn't pay that much attention but I think it was the main return pipe.
T

Looks much more like the thickness of the heater/bypass hose - which is why I ask.

The bypass hose has quite a low flow thru it unless the heater tap is on, so cooling will be minimal...

And the main hose will have cold water in it and over-cool the oil (and not heat it at startup).
Will Munns

The Laminova may be plumbed in differently to the TF160 oil cooler - will have to do a little research to figure out exactly how the latter is plumbed in...
Rob Bell

Will, your correct. I have to look into it, the problem you don't see much from above, I would have to lift the car, and I don't have sufficient height with my equipment.
T

Using a synth should reduce oil temp by 10-20%

Info on heat sources for V8 2,000 RPM WOT:
Energy to Oil from Piston Undercrown - 76%
Main and Big End Bearings - 13%
Camshaft Bearings - 1%
Energy to oil from Cylinder Wall - 0%
Oil Deck in Head - 2%
Oil Pump Energy - 8%

At 4,000 RPM WOT, the only increase in heat energy came from
the Main and Big End bearings at 19%, a 6% increase from 2,000 RPM WOT. The Piston
Undercrown's energy contribution to oil temp was 4% less at 72% for the 4,000 RPM WOT case.

The sump oil temperature versus the coolant temperature was shown to be about 18 to 20 degrees C higher for the oil than for the coolant at 2,000 RPM WOT. At 4,000 RPM WOT, the oil sump temperature was about 50 degrees C higher than the coolant temperature.

Also the sump oil temperature increased 0.3 C for every 1.0 C increase in ambient temperatures.

Paul
Paul

The effectiveness of an oil-water cooler is based on the coolant flow rate. What is the max coolant flow on the MGF (l/min)?
Steve Ratledge

Steve, thats my point - it depends on where in the system you put the cooler - and weather the thermostat is open. NOT the free running capacity of the pump.
Will Munns

@Will and those interested.

It is installed in the radiator return pipe. Apparently AMT measured the different water temperatures of the coolant coming from the radiator prior to offering this solution. It could be all bla bla, but you never know.

He (AMT) says that heat is suffiscent for a faster warm up time (not really for me, not driven in winter though).
Of course it all depends when the thermostat will open, when you close the heating bypass/valve by turning your Heat/Cool indicator towards cool, there is significant gain to make (refering to coolant warm up time)

Well hmm I don't know. Your thoughts Will ?



T

Sounds like tosh, the water comming back from the radiator will be cold to very cold unless you are stopped at the lights
Will Munns

That confirms my suspicions unless somebody knows different. At least it should cool the oil, the negative side is - no faster warm up or even lower warm up time.
T

Why do you want cool oil? as you need approx 100c to burn off any water, breakdown of oil happens at a higher temp but only measuring sump temp, and a synth is very capable at high temps. Tend to agree with Rob's earlier post.

Paul
Paul

Why cool the oil? ~ because on my last track day I could only do 3-4 laps before the oil temp was approaching the red.
Steve Ratledge

There is a much clearer case for purchasing an oil cooler if you have a modified engine as in Thierry's or Steve's case. Even on the VVC, oil temperatures can soar into the 150s. On otherwise standard MPis though, the oil cooler case is not great - and the reason why I haven't pursued it harder for my car (although it is planned because of other designs upon the engine! ;o) )
Rob Bell

Thanks Rob, I am beginning to think about where would be the ideal place for a Oil/Water heat exchanger on a standart F cooling circuit.

Return pipe from radiator :
- bteer oil cooling
- long(er) warm up time (??)

Pipe coming from the Cylinder Head and goes to the Radiator :
- faster oil warming
- head/engine temperatures more equal (????)
- doens't cool the oil that efficiently but should cool the oil a bit.

Your thoughts about this ?


@Paul:
>as you need approx 100c to burn
We are speaking of OAT here not plain water, boiling point (under 1bar pressure) is raised. (135C I was told).
T

you would be better putting it between the engine outlet and the water sensor elbow (where it splits to go bypass and main). This would make the heater circuit heat up slower, but should aid heating/cooling the oil to a more constant temp (90-100).

Problem is that to put it here you would have to redesign the cooler to take a much higher water flow rate (equivilent to 2cm cross section pipe), and it would have to bolt to the engine outlet.
Will Munns

Why would you have to bolt it to the engine?

The TF ones are bolted but the laminova are not.
Steve Ratledge

I think that the only reason why the TF oil cooler is bolted to the block is for packaging reasons: much easier to install the complete power train as a single unit than have to worry about individual components.

Therefore there is absolutely no reason why you can bolt the oil cooler anywhere you like in the engine bay :o)
Rob Bell

Well you would want to insert it between the head and the 'elbow' (which has the sensors in it and splits the water between the radiator and the bypass). You could acheive the same thing by blocking the bypass exit and using the main flow only- spliting into bypass and main after the oil cooler
Will Munns

In order to render it clear for everybody interested I altered Rob's graphic of the coolant circuit :

What Will means is to add the cooler there (please correct me if I am wrong) :

http://sniff-em.com/ebay/oilcooler.png

I don't think the diameter differs, I think it should fit as it is now. However the part of the pipe is really short between the outlet and the Y piece, I don't know if it is going ot fit. But it should be the better solution.

T

Errm - yes, My knowlage of the cooling hose system is from the Rover 400, which doesn't exactly match that diagram - although the paths are quite simmiler.

What I'm saying is that with the heater and thermostat closed then there will be no water flow thru the oil cooler unless it is right up against the head - you have to fit it before the bypass branch, so it either has to mate with the head - or the bypass has to be moved.

The TF160 pipes look to be the thickness of the bypass/heater hoses so about 10mm diameter, whereas the radiator pipes are much larger at around 30mm diameter, so you have to have much less of a restriction to plumb in the oil cooler into this part of the circuit.
Will Munns

I agree with you Will - really, the oil cooler wants to be plumbed in such a way that it recieves a continuous circulation from the water pump. There aren't that many options available to you to achieve this - the engine outlet stub pipe is one, the bypass hose another.

Not sure how the Mocal is plumbed in in other applications? Perhaps into the heater circuit on the Elise (but the Lotus has a different design of heater that does not involve an on-off circulation valve).

Interestingly, studying the TF oil cooler picture (the one that Dieter posted a link to above), it appears that it is plumbed into the water circuit as Thierry describes: it is in the radiator return hose to the thermostat...

... might there be an advantage in doing this from the perspective of oil warming the coolant returning from the rad and hitting the thermostat???
Rob Bell

Jesus :) my head starts spinning. Yes water will most likely warm up abit (depends on flow rate) when coming from the Rad that way. (Thermal shock reduction?)

It really matters from what viewpoint you see it, I see a lot of pipes on that picture, left is the entry to the right is the exit ?
T

This might help...

From Laminova:
'Thanks for your inquiry. We would prefer you to install the cooler after the radiator so you will get the coldest water and the best performance. If the thermostat closes it most likely means the engine is not "hot" enough and therefore not require any oilcooling either. If you however would like the "cooler" to work as a heater before reaching full working temp then you should install the watercircuit as a partial flow for instance in line with the heating pipes for the compartment. In partial flow installation you need to plug the large mid-center hole in the cooler to run all the water to the smaller ducts.
[extract copied from SELOC]
Steve Ratledge

Thierry, I don't know the figures of thermal transfer and how this relates to flow rates, so whether it truely can reduce thermal shock is a question that is no more than conjecture at the present time - but it does pose an interesting hypothesis don't you think?

Thanks for that posting Steve - confirms the location. I presume that this is also the location chosen by Simon Scutham for his racing Elise?
Rob Bell

Sorry to drag this one up but I have a question (as always)

This thread talks a lot about Oil cooling using water as the cooling medium, what about the air coolers? I know B&G sell a kit that supplies long pipes, an oil stat and a rad, which mounts at the front of the car. Is this any good/better than the water version?

Or will this also have a similar (perceived) thermal shock issue as the one discussed in great detail on the exige thread?
Kevin s

This will cool the oil far better than an Water/Oil cooler, however when mounting in the front you have to consider the pipe length and that the standart oil pump on the mgf wasn't designed for such lengthy pipes.(from back to front and from front to back)
Thierry

You have the same issues with the overcooling and oil not getting to temp, so usually on a road going car you would need to fit a thermostat to divert the oil only at higher temps.

The other problem is flushing the system, the oil rad and pipes hold a couple of litres of oil, so when changing the oil you don't get 1/3 of it out, so you cannot use a flushing oil and the oil gets blacker as soon as you get to temp (so oil changes have to be more regular)
Will Munns

This is not true Will, it has a thermostat, which will open at 88C (or at what ever temperature you choose), prior to this no oil cooling will happen.

Also I disagree with MORE regular intervals, you have around 2,5 liter more oil, not only is more oil better for cooling but also more oil has to been less often serviced/changed.
Thierry

I was talking about 'in general', racing oil coolers are often plumbed in without a thermostat (adds weight), but then race engines are sometimes run with no thermostat in the water circuit as well!

> but also more oil has to been less often serviced/changed.

But the point is that when you do an oil change the oil rad _keeps_ the old oil, so you dont change all of the oil, you leave 1/3 of the oil in the system - so it is already contaminated when you start up next.
Will Munns

This one seems more cut and dry than the water temp issue.

As I have a VVC and itend to modify the engine it would seem to me to be a good idea to fit an oil to air cooler rad with a stat. This WILL keep the oil cooler when driving hard/fast and will increase the oil capacity for the engine.

When doing an oil change it would probably be best to take off the cooler pipes at the engine and drain the cooler (blow down the pipes or raise one pipe?) and then refill it whilst changing engine oil.

Kevin s

@Will
The oil Radiator I had fitted was from Setrab, 20cm - 13 cm height. My guesstimate is it holds around 0,75Liter of oil.

@Kevin
It is going to take hours to do an oil change then, especialy for the VVC I wouldn't go that route. You can mount it at the rear also, (not so lenghty pipes, no risk for too much oil pressure drop,but not so efficient cooling, should be good enough though)
Thierry

Thierry
>My guesstimate is it holds around 0,75Liter of oil.

OK so once you include the pipes make it 1/4 rather than 1/3 of the oil capacity - but my point still stands!
Will Munns

Well it depends on how much time you want to take to do an oil change. Leaving 1/4 used oil in the rad won't affect performance that much, (apart from the lower TBN - Total Base number properties). Did you knwo that most wear happens right after an oil change ?
T

Will: What I missed to say is that your objections should be considered, it is good to know all the consequences of such changes.
Thierry

This thread was discussed between 12/07/2004 and 21/07/2004

MG MGF Technical index

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