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MG MGF Technical - Trophy TB
|I know this was on here only a couple of weeks ago, but I wanted some clarification.|
If I fit one of this to a 2001 1.8 MPi with a 57i induction kit what will happen?
Will torque be lost? Will the MEMS be able to cope without any modification? Is it really worth it!?
Seems like a good mod for the price - similar to a 57i in terms of price per bhp.
|MEMS will be able to cope with it (unless you have a load of other mods as well as the 57i). The only negative is that the car may be a little jumpy when driving around town (as the effect of the TB opening is so much quicker).|
|I have modified this from an other posting.|
The Trophy TB has arrived and has been fitted. I have a 1.8i with a K&N 57i and no other performance mods.
Fitting took about 40 mins, with no issues. I simply removed the access grill and did it all from the boot. I used an 8mm socket with extension)and a 8mm spanner to undo the four bolts holding the TB in place. A screwdriver (to remove the K&N air filter) and a pair of pliers to loosen the clip holding one of the hoses in place. The only tricky bit is a small clip holding a wire place. This was easily access when I had unbolted the TB. The clip looks like you should pull it off, but if you push down in the middle, the legs open up and you can pull it off.
After fitting I reset the Sensor (Ignition on (don't start the engine) push accelerator 5 times and ignition off - Thanks Deiter for that bit).
After fitting the Trophy TB. I went out for a test drive. Boy was it good. The power pick up seems to be a lot smoother and the typical power lag between 3500-4000 RPM has been removed. I noticed no loss of torque not did I notice any jumpiness. I came back with my heart pounding and the adrenaline coursing around by system. Only two words can describe the difference it has made to my 1.8i.
|Does the Trophy TB cost the same from Mike Satur (£131.60) a it does direct from Rover?|
|Thanks Dot and Stephen|
|Paul, I think that the TB is available from a number of sources now- but I am not sure which is the cheapest:|
1. Mike Satur (cheaper than Rover- by about 20 quid IIRC)
2. PTP (which I think is the cheapest???)
If B&G don't yet sell it, they soon will, knowing their MO.
What did your insurers say about the Trophy TB. Did they charge you more? If so how much?
|Here are the quotes I got ...|
PTP £98 + £10 + VAT = £126 odd
Rover £112 + VAT = £131 odd
MS same as Rover (+ delivery if you need it)
Not much in it really ... many were on back order back at the beginning of Jan. Not sure how the supply chain is now ...
|Plenty available, priced at £96+VAT. Bulk purchase has brought the price down!|
PnP about £5 or so.
Contact me for further details
|Interestingly someone on the Elise BBS says the trade price is £42 + VAT ... sounds a bit far fetched to me but then I'm no automotive expert.|
|That sounds like the price from the original supplier. I'll find out :o)|
|PTP price is £ 98.40 + 8.70PP + Vat, mine arrived today.|
|42 quid is less than cost...|
Fallen off the back of a lorry?
|OK, I think the 40 quid was for a 2nd hand ali TB someone on the Elise board was selling (he was replacing it with the Trophy version).|
|Most of you who have fitted a Trophy TB seem to have am mpi, has anybody fitted one to a VVC, or does anyone know if the same improvements would result?|
|At least 1 guy on the Elise board has done it (and reported good results), I'm planning on doing it soon too.|
|Its on my VVC ... see it here http://uk.geocities.com/gvrawlins/|
How you finding the Hurricane after living with it a week?
|I'm getting plenty of positive feedback from MGF/Metro/200/400/25/45 owners out there who have fitted the 52mm/160PS throttle body, as we can see here on this board.|
Further gains are indeed possible as I have read elsewhere on this board re:port and manifold throat matching. Just don't be tempted to relieve the manifold without taking it off first [tricky on an F, I know] but I hate the idea of all the filings going into the engine :-(
It would also be a good idea to replace the inlet manifold gasket/studs/nuts at the same time, too!
|Dieter or DrDave the throttle body on my 1.8mpi Freestyle has the numbers T005 2841|
do you know the dia of this and/or the differences that make it this part number.
|>> How you finding the Hurricane after living with it a week?|
Its superb. I'd encourage anyone with the standard setup to forget about the K&N (its good for what it is) and either save up for an ITG or wait for the *F* specific Hurricane (you could do the K&N 'flower pot' mod but I'm not sure about such diy construction projects so close to the engine). Shame tho that I made the switch so late ... the *F* will be going over summer ...
|Thanks for info Rog,you say same dia 48mm,so why the part number diff is it diff in any way to the Trophy trottle body in design?|
|What is the number of PTP|
|I received my 52mm TB yesterday from Dave Lacey (Dr Dave) at Richardsons of Tiverton (01884 256851), £117.80 inclusive of VAT and P&P, very prompt service. |
Comparing the diameter of the new and old TB I was surprised how much bigger it looks for just the extra 3mm, i suppose that does mean a 15% bigger area and it certainly looks like it.
It took me a little time to fit, i must admit that personally I couldn't get to the securing bolts properly without removing the engine cover (though I do have a home-made enclosure for the K & N which did get in the way to some extent). One thing of note is that the hidden bolt when looking at the TB from the boot access hatch (lower of the bolts nearest the front of the car) also holds in place a clip which secures small pipes and wires to other things. Make sure you note this clip and re-secure it with the TB mounting bolt when it is restalled. I also found removing the lower hose with the spring clip not easy without access though the engine cover, however that may just be me or my car. Both the electrical wire connector to the TB and the throttle cable itself I found much easier to disconnect once the TB had been unbolted. In my case it was also worth adjusting the thottle linkage properly once the new TB was fitted.
|TB area = 3.142 x radius squared|
Dia=48mm Area = 3.142 x 24 x 24=1810mm^2
Dia=52mm Area = 3.142 x 26 x 26=2142mm^2
Difference=314mm^2/1810=17.4% increace in cross sectional area.
I am sure that Bernouli would have some thing to say about pressure, speed of flow, turbulance and flow thought a sharp edged orifice. But the difference is still significant!
|Dia=55 Area = 3.142 x 27.5 x 27.5 = 2376 mm^2|
is another 9.9 % more with the GM 'home made'
|Thanks Steve, i sort of rounded to nearest handy number that was easier for me to remember, in my case 15%...*grin*....when you get to my age etc....|
3.141592654...for some reason i can remember that one...
|Got mine fitted up with one earlier this week. I felt the urge to exercise my credit card so I got the PiperX Viper filter and had the exhaust manifold bored out too.|
's bloody quick now!! >-))))
|I am intrested in the work re exhaust manifold bored out. What did this cost and what the down side?|
I had my TTB delivered from Dr Dave this morning, and I fitted it this afternoon to my VVC.
What an improvement! The throttle response is so much more instant and the car pulls so much stronger, as highly recommended mod as the K&N.
As Paul said, the difference between the two TBs visually is quite significant, looks more than just 4mm.
Thanks Dr Dave.
|If you take the exhaust manifold off, you can see all the crappy welding in the inside of the pipes. You can see how large the exhaust duct is from the head by looking at where the carbon is on the exhaust manifold. Mine was restricted by 2-3mm circumference on each pipe!|
Re-weld the outside of the pipes to the flanges, then grind out the inner bore of the pipe. Took about an hour to get the thing on and off again (but I have air-con and the unit restricts access somewhat), and about 2 hours to weld and grind.
Mike Satur did all the work.
|Thanks for the feedback guys....it makes it all worthwhile after a hard long week like I've just had!|
Cheers for the mathematical info; what a difference in area....
Pipercross performance air filters and Viper Kits now available for all models - P&P FOC!
Another 15 TB's now in stock too.
|Hmmmm, I have heard a lot about performace incerases. I hope you are right, as I have just ordered one. I fitted a K&N 571 and an SP exhaust at the same time and did not notice any real difference just more noise. I changed the cams and then I notices the difference. I hope the Throttle body is good? Will have it this week so I will let you all know.|
|Fitted my TTB this weekend. It is pretty easy to do as long as you have the right tools to hand! The performance increase is noticable and I would say more noticable than when I first fitted my K&N. The change seems to be most noticable at low revs with the engine picking up much more quickly. At higher revs it is less noticable. Worth the money I think but unlikely to set your world on fire.|
|All you people who have fitted the TTB, what have your insurance companies made of it? Or have you not told them?|
Well that killed a thread!
|I changed my exhaust and my insurance company wasn't bothered.|
I'm doing track days soon and my company isn't bothered.
Depends on the company you use (and I hardly think that any company is gonna notice if you swap a throttle body).
|My TB and PiperX Viper arrived today. So I'll probably fit them this weekend. One question for one of you out there, how do you remove the ring-clip that holds air intake pipe on the TB?|
|>I changed my exhaust and my insurance company wasn't bothered.|
*g*, Dot, I think 'you don't count here' ;)
Not your insurance, but the TUEV does the release here and the writing to the KFZ-Brief (car registration). DE Insurances only bother if you have an accident and i.e. the car is 'out of specification'. For example if all the mods increase the power to the next range of insured power than you need to pay increased charge.
>how do you remove the ring-clip that holds air intake pipe on the TB?
Use a gripper and catch it at both 'rips' at the slot. Close gripper careful and lift the lower side.
It's as well possible to put it back later, but only to the original hose.
|Having read this thread and others on fitting a Trophy TB I decided to measure the sizes of the various parts involved. The diameter of the throat of the standard TB is 48mm and the diameter where it mates with the plenum chamber is approximately 57mm. The corresponding hole in the plenum chamber is the same size. If you fit a Trophy TB (52mm)how big is the diameter of the TB where it matches with the plenum. That is to say, how much should I remove from the inside of the plenum hole to ensure a perfect match? I note that it has been pointed out that there is a mismatch with standard plenum to Trophy TB. I think Mike Satur pointed this out.|
I also discovered that a plastic standard TB (48mm)is slightly smaller in throat than an aluminium TB (48mm?) by about 1mm. So some small advantage could be had just by fitting an ali TB anyway! I found this out when I purchased an ali TB (48mm) as a spare for my VVC. (£25 quid to you guv).
I didn't measure but I am pretty sure the diameter of the Trophy TB where it matches to the plenum is the same as the standard TB - the mismatch would be the same whichever body you fit (unless you fit one of Dieters GM TBs!)
The two standard (48mm) throttle bodies I have, matched perfectly to the spare plenum chamber. I was wondering about the match of the Trophy TB (which I don't have) because I read in another thread that some plenums do not match correctly. I can't find the thread anymore; it was recent. Mike Satur gave pictures of the mismatch.
|When i fitted the 160 TB to my 1.8i as far as i could check the diameter of the TB where it met the plenium was smaller than the diameter of the plenium. I checked this after reading the previous thread, i guess the mismatch is when the aloy VVC plenium is used. Please correct me if i'm wrong. |
TB, makes a big difference I think, V pleased, throttle response great, noise with 57i also great, better than with just filter in my opinion. Though then again it might just be euphoria at being able to drive the F again after 4 months...*g*. This week i test drove a Puma, Mini and Clio 172 and my F was more enjoyable to drive than any of them by quite a margin. the 195 tyres on the 16" wheels at the front with BBS tracking settings are a revelation.
so 55mm to 57mm difference with the GM thing. 1 mm not flush, I don't care now, but later at any time when I get hands on a VVC plemnum. )
Had already a kind of drawing online, if of interst.
Didn't measure the plenum and more cause the most restrictions appear later down when the air gets to the cylinder head.
PTP's address www.ptp-ltd.co.uk or 01455 622229 Trophy 160 throttle not on their website but do supply it
|On Lotus Elises BBS is an action to get a bulk discount, look at :|
Thread: "Trophy 160 TB group purchase" on Elise General.
or contact Penguin (Owen Geddes) direct at :
he is a well known and very good supplyer of Lotus parts.
|Bulk discount?? |
Unless you can source them directly from Dellorto??
Probably doubtful though, I don't know about their policy of releasing manufacturer parts to the aftermarket? There must be some sort of supply restriction imposed on them?
Dispite my criticism of the K&N and SP exhaust not given much power increses. It felt like Zero increase when I fitted to my car two years ago. The Throttle body did make a difference as everyone states. especally from 2000 to 3000 on the rev range (got rid of that horrible flat spot) a very good investment expecally for 60 quid (Rover discount). Well happy.
This thread was discussed between 19/02/2002 and 18/03/2002
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