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MG MGF Technical - Tuning the F
| After asking a few questions on this BB, I thought it time to ask an obvious question - where is the best place to start with tuning? My thoughts are: 1 air filter - K&N 57i in a Rover 820 air box. 2 52mm alloy throttle body 3 8mm HT leads 4 ???? 5 trophy splitter or KH splitter? 6 F one rear wing (or maybe bigger like the wide arch TF?) 7 Maybe sills from the Mike Satur Aero kit? 8 Lower car - lowering knuckles or fit the Trophy Hyrdragas units and then 9 Trophy shocks - or complete kit in one go? 10 Polybush conversion 11 Big brakes - 280mm or Trophy 305mm with 4 pots 12 various cosmetic bits inside car 13 Rear speakers 14 Upgarde complete sound system Comments please |
| Kevin s |
| 3 won't give you higher performance, but before you start, make sure the ignition system is up to the job (leads and plugs) then 1, then 4 (exhaust then head work), then 2 5 will give you better high speed stability, but go for techspeed lowering first and see if you still need it 6 and 7 will slow you down and give no benifit. 10 or 10a (compliance washers) tighten up the handleing 11 if you use the car for track work, else just get better pads 12 is piecework - do when you care 13 is advisiable if you like 'music' rather than 'sound' |
| Will Munns |
| Well, there are several thread's worth of answers there Kevin! Regarding engine mods, easy bolt on goodies for a 1.8MPi are: 1. Enclosed air filter - a K&N in a 820 airbox is the route I went. 2. 52mm 'Trophy' TB - only worth 1 bhp, but excellent throttle response, nice! 3. 8mm magnecore ignition leads (no performance benefit, but they are reliable) 4. Exhaust back box: Mike Satur's Daytona and Phoenix systems seem to be the best 5. 4-2-1 exhaust manifold - replace the hopeless original item. Only option so far is the Janspeed, available from MG X Power and Mike Satur. 6. TF 135 cams - 0.7 mm more lift and longer duration! Standard parts and therefore ought to be easy to fit. Piper BP270H cams even better, but cost more, especially if you factor in veniers (near essential for accurate timing). Suspension kits: 1. Lowering knuckles are the way to go, no doubt. IMO the best options are offered by Techspeed, but alternatives available from B&G and Mike Satur. 2. PU bushes are a great idea. The PU bushes sold by Mike Satur and the MGFC are probably the best with s/s inserts rather than mild steel. 3. Trophy shocks are pointless. Bilsteins available from Techspeed are simply superb - but adjustables available from all the usual sources. 4. You could consider hydragas isolation: the 4-nipple job. A few folks here have had this done, and it works superbly well. Body modifications: This is much more subjective, but ... 1. Splitter - either the Trophy splitter or the KH item (now available through B&G) both work well and cut steering wander at speed. 2. Not sure whether the MS Aero kits are still available? Certainly effective from what Mike says. Brakes: A lot depends on what you are trying to achieve. Keeping the standard sized 240mm rotors you can get excellent results by upgrading the pads to 1177s. Other wise the 'Trophy' AP racing front brakes and calipers are a good afordable option. An alternative is Mike Satur's kit - although I have not got much first hand experience with these. Interior upgrades? Wow, if you've still got the money - then there is loads you can do, but I'd defintely recommend the rear speakers! Quite a lot of the above is covered here: http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/ - my car has been a subject of much 'development' along similar lines to what you've been thinking about! LOL If you have any questions, let me know! :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Thanks for the comments - should have siad its a VVC - TF135 cams won't really help........ I realise some bits are just tarty and not for performance but we all have a bit of a poser in us(why else buy a rag top??) |
| Kevin s |
| Do'h forgot the most important 1st Lotus driver training day at north weild. for about £100 you get tuition for a whole day (tutor shared between 4) and a compleatly safe arena to explore the limits of the car. |
| Will Munns |
| Piper do an re-grind exhaust cam for the VVC. The VVCBP270 a lift of 9.96mm with 264 deg of duration, I think they only cost about £150 + fitting |
| Steve Ratledge |
| 150 quid for the cam is an absolute bargain :o) Throw in a decent filter, exhaust manifold, exhaust etc etc, and then add an Emerald to remap the fuelling and ignition, then from what the Lotus guys have seen, you'll see more than 10 bhp and 10 lb.ft torque everywhere (and in this case, those figures are BEFORE the cam - so perhaps 175-180+ bhp is possible...) |
| Rob Bell |
| VVC - TF135 ?? New model?? Kevin, the engine wil be the non VVC unit and best way to 'tune' it is to get rid of as much dead weight as possible ,so side skirts and wings are a non starter for power gains;-) The head will have the small valves so bigger inlets and a port rework will give you the best gains for the least bucks. For faster A-B get better brakes/suspension all other items as advised in above postings, except the hydrogas bit;-).But don't get carried away;-) |
| mike |
| >should have siad its a VVC - TF135 cams won't really Nope he's saying it _is_ a VVC not an MPi, so he can't fit the TF cams. >But don't get carried away;-) What a load of ar*e ;-) once the darkside has you! |
| Will Munns |
| So what are your thoughts then Kevin - what direction are you keen to take things in? |
| Rob Bell |
| Thanks will, yes it is a VVC and I will certainley investigate the £150 cam option. From what I have read, the K&N 57i inside a Rover 820 airbox liberates loads of power (+10-15bhp mentioned on this site!!) so I reckon K&N, airbox, 52mm TB is the way then cam then exhaust then more nad more and more......argh help the darkside has me..... |
| Kevin s |
| Or look at the K06a kit on the DVA Power website (http://members.aol.com/DVAPower/). For £975, you get Ported VVC head, the exhaust cam and the 52mm TB. Fitting is an extra £555. But you get 170+BHP Go on you know you want to... |
| Steve Ratledge |
| PS DVA's standard charge for fitting a pair of cams to an F is £305. So the £555 for fitting the head and cams actually looks good. If I had a VVC this is properbly what I would do. |
| Steve Ratledge |
| Mike Satur eems to have a good reputation, what about their MGF VVC Clubman kit? MGF VVC Clubman kit (Also fits ZR 160 cars) Consists of reworking valves, seats , throats and port profiles and revised VVC cam timing, when coupled with our recommended air induction kit and exhaust mods can produce around 175BHP with associated increase in torque and throttle response. We recommend that we fit this kit due to the modifications we make to the VVC mechanisms .Fitted price £895.00 plus vat Seems Very good value to me??? |
| Kevin s |
| I've not seen a huge number of independent RR plots of Mike's ported heads Kevin - so I can't comment specifically regarding the clubman kit that you mention. However, the stage 1 head fitted to Scarlet Fever did perform extremely well - his 1.8MPi produced the same power as a good TF135: 142-3 bhp. An excellent result - and represents something in the region of a +20 bhp gain over standard. The VVC head is already an excellent casting - so the laws of diminishing returns applies - but clearly 175bhp is perfectly achievable, and I've no reason to doubt that this is what Mike's kit will achieve. And the money being asked is indeed very reasonable. Another avenue you could explore is the head porting performed by Roger at Sabre down in Southampton. Paul's head was prepared by him - and Paul saw a genuine 170 bhp - without an exhaust cam upgrade... |
| Rob Bell |
| Kelvin, I'm not an MGF or TF owner BUT: read the Mike Satur description again: "... WHEN coupled with our recommended air induction kit and exhaust mods can produce around 175BHP with associated increase in torque and throttle response ... " You see, those bits are not included, so you won't be seeing 175 horses... Alex |
| Alex @ work |
| Rob I think the MS head kit is for me, but I will start with the airbox mod and TB, Probably then sort the suspension next with a bit of a trophy front spoiler in their somewhere. This will give a good basis for future (Head, exhaust, cams etc). The only other mod I consider as quite urgent is the quick shift from B&G, is this a better option than the slick shifts? or is it a case of Quick shift = quick and sticky or Slick shift = slow and slick?? |
| Kevin s |
| If you just want better feel then hacksaw off the thread and stick an aftermarket MOMO knob on. Then decide if you want the SSK. |
| Will Munns |
| It certainley needs something, its a bit like stiring porridge, there is no chance of just snicking it down a gear for overtaking - more like press clutch count to 3 find gear clutch out very slow |
| Kevin s |
| Give the hacksaw a go first, it's free! |
| Will Munns |
| I'd echo Will's comments there. I'm not sure, but I think that the B&G slick shift kit is the same one that Moss retails. It's not brilliant to be perfectly honest. On one car I tried the gate was far worse than on the standard car, and the lever counter weight clunked on the inside of the centre tunnel... yuck! The best two slick shift systems are those retailed by Mike Satur and Techspeed. Similar money - although the Techspeed kit is the fitted price, whereas the MS kit is just for the parts. I see that Mike is now onto the 3rd generation SSK - which I haven't tried yet - might be worth a go. Both offer snappy, short and slick gear changes. My preference at the time was for the Techspeed kit - and that is what I eventually had fitted to the car. However, as Will says, lopping off a couple of inches from the lever will markedly improve the 'feel' of the gear change. Regarding the Clubman kit - go for it! :o) I am sure you'll not be disappointed :o) Just promise us to get some RR runs before and after the kit on either G-Force's or Dave Walker's equipment so we can compare the gains observed with those of other kits on the market :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| >> I think the MS head kit is for me Alex has a point here.. you are looking at about £300-£350 for the exhaust, prob another £300 for a better manifold, £200 for the filter, sports cat Prob about £150. So you can add a grand there to the clubman kit. I am not dissing Mikes work coz I am in no position to do so, but my suggestion, FWIW would be:- PERFORMANCE K&N with airbox - Noise & Grin and prob 10bhp Exhaust - I have a daytona and it's great maybe 3-5bhp 52mm throttle body - much better throttle response < 1bhp 4-2-1 exhaust manifold - Janspeed seem to be the kiddies here - 3-5bhp Warmer cams as mentioned by Steve - ?bhp These should get you over the 160bhp mark and impove the driveability of your car considerably. After these you have a good base for getting the head work done, but you might find that you don't need to as you could well be happy there. (yeah right...as if we are ever happy) HANDLING Get along to Techspeed, get it lowered and get the compliance washers and bilstiens fitted, it'll transform the car. Trophy spoiler are good and look nice..I'm happy with mine (accept that it's coming a bit loose) BRAKES As mentioned, don't go big without first considering use. I have just put grooved discs up front with Mintex 1144 pads and the improvement is amazing, if I had not had the rears replaced with standard discs last year I would get grooves & Mintex here too. I you plan on going on the track then fine, get some bigger discs & calipers, but don't just do the fronts and forget the rears!. COSMETIC STUFF Whatever floats your boat, but as Mike says, adding bodywork adds weight and thus reduces performance so something to bear in mind. ICE Forget the rear speakers IMO, get a decent little 2 channel amp and replace the crappy door speakers with some good components. also sound deaden the doors with some dynamat. couple this with a small sub in the footwell or behind a seat and you will probably have a much better sound than you could hope for with 6x4's in the T-Bar, bags more presence. As I said all the above is purely just my opinion, but hope it helps. |
| Phil Brindley - Leicester |
| ". I see that Mike is now onto the 3rd generation SSK " Rob, please,get up to speed;-) That went out of production last year!! We are on SSK1V now, lol. Re power outputs....always a basis for discussion as to what does and doesn't work. All I can say is we do throughly test and prove what works so when we recommend a range of products we know how they will perform. Terry Garnick had one of the first VVC clubman kits ( this now incorporates the extra oil feed to the VVC units as standard) and was producing about 172 if I recall when we did a RR shoot out at Nobles,( he has been promising me a copy of the print out, U listening Terry??) that was fitted with a standard manifold albeit tweaked,a 52mm TB and a Pipercross induction kit ,one we developed for them now called the EVO. The 421 manifold improves the torque around the 3500rpm range ,just where it is needed on the VVC,IMO. BTW our SSK1V is also available from B&G. Going 'ome. See ya at SS. |
| mike |
| Mike, can you bring along your signature stamp to SS? I´m missing that on my center console. Just like this: http://www.mikesatur.co.uk/images/maroon3.jpg cheers, David (2-tone anthracite - LSB, belgium) |
| David Peters |
| Mike Satur's reputation is self created by his continual postings on this board. I have had some of his stuff and it's no better that anyting else. I had his fancy head gasket and associated bit's fitted, it failed quicker than the orignal (yes 2 hgf) |
| ngm |
| Mike doesn´t really "continously post on this board". Quite the opposite actually, he merely posts here. The HG itself is seldom the cause of HGF. HGF is inflicted by a host of other things on which I don´t have the time to elaborate on. As for his products, you´re right, some are top quality, others are not. But then, you´re have to be aware you´re not buying parts from high end tuners from the lieks of Schnitzer,Hamann, Kleemann, etc. On the ohter hand, he´s one of the very few offering the MGF/TF driver alternatives for uprating/replacing OEM items. For which, I for one, am quite thankfull. Cheers, david NB: good luck on the next HG. |
| David P-N |
| >Mike Satur's reputation is self created by his continual postings on this board With respect - Bollocks. I have _never_ found mike on these boards boasting about his products. Above he has just added information to the discussion. mike doesn't post as 'Mike Satur' and the above post is the first in a long time when it is obvious that 'mike' is MS (a number of other mikes float in and out). |
| Will Munns |
| >> Rob, please,get up to speed;-) That went out of production last year!! We are on SSK1V now, lol. << Typical! ;o) LOL Will you have an example at SS Mike? Terry - if you've got your dyno charts, it's not just Mike who'd like to see them! :o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Thanks all for your advice, I think I have decided which way to go with the engine, I still fancy the NOS that Moto build are plugging in the Total MG mag - along with the other mods first i.e Air filter, TB, Exhaust, head work I fancy the NOS as it only puts stress on the engine when used which is only rarely I would think - anyone any opinions?? Will, I like the sound of the gearstick mod BUT if I don't like it I am stuck with a sawn off gearstick!--Awkward to glue back on!! |
| Kevin s |
| >I like the sound of the gearstick mod BUT if I don't >like it I am stuck with a sawn off gearstick! true of many mods this, but if youre planning on getting a SSK then you have nothing to lose as these bits are replaced. |
| Will Munns |
| One thing that I find odd, most replies offering advice recomend using a cat bypass, but on this MG site, a test has been done comparing the std cat with no cat, performance cat and another one, the only one recommended (at least for a VVC) is a std cat - the cat bypass actually robbed the engine of power. Conclusion: Use the std cat? is this correct? |
| Kevin s |
| There are performance gains to be had in the exhaust system. The test proved that in a standard system with a standard manifold and a standard back box the CRP robbed power. Once you start tweaking the system in various other ways then the wisdom behind this quote becomes muddied. But if you're looking for big gains then removing the cat will not give you them (with standard other parts). |
| Will Munns |
| >> I fancy the NOS as it only puts stress on the engine when used which is only rarely I would think - anyone any opinions?? Don't know about the stresses involved, but you will use it more than 'Rarely'. If Duncan sees this (he has, I think, the first NOS'd F) he will tell you that, once you've felt that lovely kick in the guts that the sudden introduction of 50bhp gives you, you'll find yourself using* it more and more (especially around B*W 3 series). * On private roads of course |
| Phil Brindley - Leicester |
| Hi there, I have a vvc with a trophy TB and K&N57i whih is great!!! Am thinking of a daytona ms rear box but don't want anything to loud or intrusive.. (Apparently these aren't o intrusive, am still researhcing into this..) Would I gain more power in getting a 4-2-1 manifold instead, or is there power to be had with replacing just the backbox? As said before I've been adivised not to de-CAT, as the standard CAT can flow more than enough air unless you plan to go over the 165 bhp mark. |
| Fran |
| Fran, was about to PM you on the "other" forum, there is someone in the MGF General board who is selling a nearly new Daytona, thought you might be interested. |
| Phil Brindley - Leicester |
| >> As said before I've been adivised not to de-CAT, as the standard CAT can flow more than enough air unless you plan to go over the 165 bhp mark. << I think that Fran has hit the nail on the head there Kevin: unless you are opting for an engine that produces 180+ (which in your case, you are going to be aiming for somewhere in this region), then the standard cat actually works superbly well, and does not represent a significant flow restriction. Above this level, then perhaps a sports cat would be a sensible purchase, as you'll definitely need a catalyst in order to pass emissions tests come MoT time, as after modifications, the emissions tend to become dirtier. Fran - the 4-2-1 manifold tends not to add much to the head line power output. But what it does do is something far more significant: it adds power and torque further down the rev-range. Depending on engine spec, perhaps as much as 10bhp/ 10lb.ft torque. Exhaust back boxes can also add some power and torque too. We've found the Mike Satur Daytona system to perform best, although we've not re-tested this system since Mike changed manufacturers (he now uses Janspeed). Another option is the Phoenix. In combination, these two ought to give useful gains in power and driveability - although nothing quite as much as sorting out head breathing... But that is in a slightly different price league. |
| Rob Bell |
| Given unlimited dosh I would go 1. DVA polished head 2. PU Bushes, compliance bushes being the first priority 3. Better brake pads 4. lowered car 5. Airfilter 6. Straight through exhaust 7. TF 135 cams (which seem like a bit of a result!) 8. some sort of splitter airdam ( subtle) at the front. but not necessarily in that order. I just wouldnt bother with all the other nasty options: spoilers, leather, blingin' wheels ( other than to get over the larger calipers) mor speakers walnut etc etc just forget it. it all adds weight |
| Neil |
| > Another avenue you could explore is the head porting performed by Roger at Sabre down in Southampton. Paul's head was prepared by him - and Paul saw a genuine 170 bhp - without an exhaust cam upgrade... That was with a standard exhaust let alone an exhaust cam!! :-) Shamless free ad for Roger at Sabre Heads: He can be contacted on 01722 332234 or Sabre_Heads@yahoo.co.uk I'm soon to add an airbox and exhaust (as soon as I convince Jo) to probably add a bit to figures. P. ps. Rob, he's no longer based in Southhampton, but instead at an old spitfire works in Salisbury. :-) |
| Paul Nothard |
| >he's no longer based in Southhampton, but instead at an old spitfire works in Salisbury. :-) he should call them Spitfire or Merlin heads! Sabre was an old US jet fighter http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.richard-seaman.com/Wallpaper/Aircraft/Fighters/F86Banking20DegreesLeftThumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.richard-seaman.com/Wallpaper/Aircraft/Fighters/&h=150&w=200&sz=4&tbnid=ed8rTivqMlEJ:&tbnh=74&tbnw=98&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSabre%2BJet%2Bfighter%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN 170bhp ! go on Paul go for the magic 200!!! |
| Neil |
| The Sabre was the subject of a famous bit of pop art wasn't it? Which is kinda cool... but yeah, Merlin or Spitfire would be better! ;o) |
| Rob Bell |
| Hi paul good figures!!! Fancy a second hand taipan enclosed filter to add to that? if so email me , i am selling my car and have taken the filter off Martin |
| MW |
| >Which is kinda cool... but yeah, Merlin or Spitfire would be better! ;o) Get youself and you weird triumph owning preferences off this bbs ;-p |
| Will Munns |
| Martin, many thanks for the offer, but I've just sorted out an ITG kit. :-) I'm still chasing Mr Livingstone on the figures front tho. :-) Damn and blast him. ;o) ;o) Just realised that some Triumph owning deviant has got me looking at pictures of old US fighter planes!! ;o) ;o) Scandalous - Farnborough air show week too!! Still can't find the pop art tho. P. |
| Paul Nothard |
| Muhuhuhuh! ;o)' |
| Rob Bell |
| Ive just bought a Brg Mgf off my dad as he took it in on a part exchange for a gtv! Anyway when it first arrived we were all having a good laugh about the yellow painted bits and peices (Grilles,3rd brake light surround & rear trophy spoiler) and that under the seat covers were red fabric seats and yellow leather headrests. However on starting it up we stopped as it let out a massive rumble from its exausts on further inspection we discover vernier pulleys, piper cams, throttle boddies, gems managment system with lead and disk and a little sleave with sp performance written on it with loads of bills inside for various mods i belive it may have been at mike satur's aswell! it has a dyno sheet reading 176bhp! So i bought it, ive looked all over the net and found out more about it and understand steven palmer is no longer trading but im keen to know more about the car so if you read this mike have you come across it? its a 1.8i i think Regards Nick |
| Nick Lewis |
| Nick - the car you've just bought sounds the splitting image of an old, well known MGF once belonging to Jason White in Essex. It was called "Funky F" and was featured way back in 1998 (I think?) copy of MG Enthusiast. The registration of the car, by the way, was N775 FOO See archive thread: http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=archiveth&subject=2&subjectar=2&thread=2001071708453031077 A picture of the front splitter (is it still there?) - http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ap1000000/images/splitter5.jpg It should have bucket seats - although it sounds as though someone has pilfered these. Hope this helps! |
| Rob Bell |
| N.O.S. is nice! |
| DJC Dorrell |
This thread was discussed between 15/07/2004 and 02/08/2004
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