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MG MGF Technical - WOW 159BHP at Wheels

Hi Folks, I just came back from SuperChips in Bucks where they spent 3 1/2 Hrs configuring their ICON RACE Chip to my car. The car already has MS Daytona Exhaust, K&N 57i and FSE Boost Valve.

Well what can I say… you wait in a small port-a-cabin outside where they have TV, Mags, Playstation, etc... However after waiting for a few Hrs and worrying like hell after what seemed like endless power runs to the limiter... I lost count after about 12. The guy called me in, I though OH sh*t they've fu**ed it! When he said' "All finished and we have had some excellent results which were really quite surprising" :)

On first look at the graphs I though sh*t that's a big gap anyway the peak figures read as follows and are all power at the wheels:

MGF VVC, K&N 57i, MS Daytona, FSE Boost Valve (Now SuperChips ICON RACE)

Before ICON RACE
148BHP @ 6733RPM
124lbft @ 4866RPM

After ICON RACE +3 1/2Hrs of tuning!!
159BHP @ 7200RPM
136lbft @ 5000RPM (

The peak figures represent an increase of just over 9% however they do not show how much they managed to flatten the torque curve as there was a major increase (15lbft) between 1800-3100 RPM This can really be felt in 5th on the motorway as a surge of acceleration, no need to drop to 4th now! Anyway I had a great drive home, here’s hoping I can now avoid the tuning pitfalls!

Cheers RichieR

PS I will try and upload the PowerPlot as soon as I can find a site to put it on, any suggestions?





RichieR

Richie

was that at Misbourne Motors, in Chalfont St Giles?

how much did you pay may I ask??

-matt
M66 MAT
matt

Hi Matt, I fired straight up to the manufacturers SuperChips Head office in Buckingham where they did everything. Was quite expensive at £311 however for that extra mid-range torque it was really worth it! As it now flies to 130 in 5th you've really got to hold back...:)

Do you know anywhere I can post the powerplots?

Cheers RichieR
RichieR

Richie

try asking Jerry Flint @ www.mg-rover.org
he might be able to help!

-matt
M66 MAT
matt

ICON chips...oh my...
perhaps order your next engine aswell? ;-)
EXTREMELY proud M3 owner ;)

I think mr M3 owner is quite an mg lover ( or just jealous) otherwise why is he hanging round mg websites? . ..
I know for sure i dont goto m3 websites...have no reason to, i'm happy with the car i have. unlike some bmw drivers obviously..
Gforceuk

Dirk, correct me if I am wrong but did you not just order the chip and install yourself without configuring it for the car and the rest of the mods you made?

That FSE PowerBoost Valve really made a difference to the cars feel. Throttle response was much improved (i.e. You touch the accelerator and it gives 90% acceleration.... But sh*t now that chip is installed and tuned for the extra breathing, fuel, etc... it just flies.

I'm looking at the PowerPlot now and cannot believe the difference in torque all above 126lbft from 2000-6350 revs whereas before it never even got there and averaged about 110! Previously I used to feel a greater surge from 4.5K onwards now I can see why now it’s just a surge from 2000 onwards. The car pulls through the gears much faster!

A worthy difference and I'm sure that Dirk will wish me all the best with the engine!

Cheers RichieR

PS. Perhaps the M3 website is full of boring family types talking about the latest school run, how quiet the car is whilst one is cruising at 155 down ze autobahn with the added bonus of not even waking ze kids and ze wife never notices ;)
RichieR

i think your right about mr m3....

Any chance of emailing or posting a few pics of your mg richie? a few of the accessories you have i'm thinking of getting , as my car is at mike saturs in a couple of weeks for a few things..

Cheers
Gforceuk

No Problem Gforceuk, She got dirty today coming back from Buckingham so she’ll need a wash and I just need to take some new ones since I got the leather put in. I've been meaning to do this for a while so this is a good excuse though it may be later in the week ;)

Cheers RichieR
RichieR

Thanks for that , i'll keep an eye out for them
Gforceuk


Yea, I'll 4th that

F*CK OFF DORK YOU DICKLESS TWAT

Ralph

Actually Dirk had lot's of expensive fun with an icon unit (well two actually). I think jealous is the wrong word here.....
Tony Smith

Tony, as I said, didn't Dirk just plug the ICON unit in himself rather than get it tuned to his other mods... In addition, it is advisable to use Super Unleaded (min 97 Octane) with the ICON. If I am low on fuel and cannot get super anywhere, I can easily switch back to mfg settings to help prevent any 'pinking' and the associated problems. From previous posts, I believe Dirk plugged it in himself and used standard fuel, which is not a good combination!

The M3 and the MGF are two completely different cars, one is an ‘out an out’ sports car with a very strong personality the other isn't, I'll let you choose which is which, however whether you'd be jealous of the ‘out and out sports car’ is your prerogative.

Cheers RichieR
RichieR

Actually I think Dirk got the first one from Superchips as you did, not sure if he had made the other mods at the time though.

Personally to be on the safe side I'd use 98 RON fuel instead of 95 RON after making this mod as it may tend to pink if it gets a little out of tune or the fuel is not quite up to scratch. All the ICON does really is advance the timing a little from the default range.

Let's see, MS exhaust = 2BHP, K&N = 15 BHP on a VVC, that's 18 BHP. 145 + 19 = 163 BHP without the chip. The boost valve will improve pickup as it manually maintains a high fuel pressure, thus you have more fuel immediately when needed, but it will do nothing for the power. I was thinking of this to cure the lag at low revs caused by fitting the SP exhaust, have not got round to it yet though. It does use a little more fuel with the valve fitted and around town that may well add up with all the stopping and starting.

With my 1.8i I want to go up the ported head path next (money god willing) and maybe a decent pair of cams. A decent plenium and air intake would be nice to go with it. This will no doubt need some form of ECU upgrade. If I had enough money I would tend towards the High performance big valve head. If I can get around 160 useable BHP out of my MPi I will be very happy indeed. :-)

You would think that someone with a name like Richie R would have an Aston and two Ferraris instead of playing with the lowly MGF :-)
Tony Smith

I thought that a standard VVC + K&N would already give you around 158BHP, (VVC 143BHP) + (K&N 15BHP).
Paul

Come on Dirk, I thought Stephen Palmer's fitted your icon chip.

Richie, I enjoyed very much reading about your mods.
However this is how Dirk started posting on this BBS.
Not that I'm saying the same will happen to you, but Dirk was once an enthusiastic MGF owner and performance upgrader.
Jon Baker

>>>>>I thought that a standard VVC + K&N would already give you around 158BHP, (VVC 143BHP) + (K&N 15BHP).

Yes, but the figure Richie had was at the wheels, all the other figures given are at the flywheel which will always be higher than at the wheels due to transmisson/other friction losses.

This would suggust that his power figures are very impressive, not knowing what %age the losses are on an MGF, i would say that at the flywheel his car must be closer to 165-170bhp.

Gareth
Gareth Kidman

RichieR, email the graphs to me and I'll upload them to my site for you. (email addy above)

Regards


Steve.
Steve Childs

"This would suggust that his power figures are very impressive, not knowing what %age the losses are on an MGF, i would say that at the flywheel his car must be closer to 165-170bhp."

From numourous tests from the Elise BBS 17% loss through transmission is more likely & would equate to around 186bhp. By the sounds of the mods it's more likely to be at the Flywheel. My Elise is 131 bhp at the Flywheel 13bhp over the 118bhp standard K series with exhaust, K&N & no cat mods....

Dave

http://www.essex-roadsters.freeola.com
DaveB

Hi all.

I've VVC+K&N. One must not forget that the K&N only provides true performance running and not standing still as in such a test! If you go to the K&N site the power figures increases with speed (airflow).

The rule is: Air is POWER!

Therefor the 148bhp registered by Richie without the chip have little influence from the K&N. Is the same as the top sport bikes like Yamaha R6. 120bhp is the official figure, but standing still it gives no more than 108bhp (no Ramair...).

Cheers, Valter.
Valter Fernandes

Hey Paul,

Howz it going? Have you tried a Trophy (i think they had one at Autobritt) and if so did you feel any difference with your modified VVC?

I wonder if with the same mods a Trophy could be brought to 170 BHP.

BTW I sold the A3 and got an S3. Have just had it chipped. You get seriously good results with a turbo engine. In this case: 265 hp and 280 lb/ft (418 Nm). Ballistic.

But still not as "fun" as the 'F. Incredible, but true. More practical for skiing, though.
Anthony

Forget comparing simple numbers. The only important comparison is the before and after on the same rollers on the same day where the same basic atmospheric conditions apply and in many dyno rooms STP is measured and used to correct the results.

Here a quite reasonable 9% improvement in peak power with clear and reasonable gains in torque and power throughout the rest of the rev range are shown. Having spent hundreds of hours over the last couple of decades the only negaitve point that could be made is that an average of three or more runs both before and after would help reinforce the results. Why, well after three or 4 runs without doing any changes most engines tend to give about 5% more power and torque through clearing the cr*p out.

Whatever, I consider the gains are quite realistic following a good session on a rolling road where optimised settings can be achieved. Quite whether the setting for the timing are fully appropriate for long term reliability is another thing, but I would suggest that they should be. DT's product history has always been better than very many.

Rog

Roger Parker

Ah, the value of getting the chip correctly mapped for an individual car!

Unfortunately many unlike Richie have simply used the ICON chip as a 'bolt on' performance extra. This is where the problems with the chips arise, destroying engines. However, these chips look to work well when set up correctly (that sounds like 311 quid spent very wisely Richie) and probably provide the best results when other mods have been performed...
Rob Bell

Thanks for the comments guys the car is definitely much quicker in any gear or speed. I don't notice the FSE boost valve as much now as the power seems to just exponentially increase up to 7.2K before the limiter stops the fun. :) 1st is now a real zip, 2nd...., 3rd........., 4th............ about as quick as you say them here 5th feels like it would just stop on the limiter! However, I'll need to wait until I travel to Germany to try that! Perhaps I should check the AA cover before hand.

Anyways, I have just provided the graphs to Steve (MG site) and Erik from (English Fantasy) for viewing on the web please let me know your comments.

Happy driving, Richard

PS SuperChips suggest +25-30BHP at the flywheel thus 184-189... I wonder just how much gains you really get from porting, increasing valves, and polishing the head, etc?
RichieR

nice one Anthony. S3's are pretty quick to say the least although I can normally leave most at the lights until we have to shift into 2nd gear by which time you can see the turbo's comming to life.

I am looking for the mk3 MGF with turbo or supercharger.

(Sorry for the late reply been up in Zurich, must come down to see your car)
Paul

This is an engine that has a "REP" for HGFs and you want to tune it!
Mega

I used to see a great variety of smoking, limping cars struggling back into the Buckingham industrial estate when I lived nearby...and in the early days, many of their claims were frankly daydreams.

Turbos respond very well to chipping, and modern cars are strangled by legislation for the factory chip. But I'm still not convinced that chips are the answer to everything, particularly reliability. There's a good reason for manufacturers only going so far with their own software, and it ain't development costs.
Darren Ainsworth

>>>This is an engine that has a "REP" for HGFs and you want to tune it!<<<

Oddly Mega, the tuned ones that run to 9500rpm and above actually don't suffer reliability problems commonly reported here.

Rog
Roger Parker

Hi everyone, Thanks to Steve Childs you can now see the PowerPlots at http://www.mg-rover.org/temp/superchips/

Cheers RichieR
RichieR

Nice work chaps.

One thing just looking at the curves is that the superchips, whilst bolstering the low end torque has also made the curve a little more 'peaky', with a dip in the low/mid range engine speed- and in this respect, surprisingly similar (in profile if not in terms of absolute figures) to what we see with the 1.8i engines. Which makes me wonder whether the standard VVC map is designed to smooth out the torque curve?

This dip, interestingly from observations made by our Lotus tuning friends, can be largely removed by the use of a decent 4-2-1 exhaust manifold. So I wonder what effect this would have on your car Richie?
Rob Bell

Hmm good comments Rob, It is strange that Rover would design the original map with such a low down power loss. The low down acceleration is now much improved, also the top end power is continuous whereas it would previously dip before cut off.

It is certainly true that the new initial surge can induce more wheelspin and I must now really concentrate on the throttle more whilst tackling any bends in low gears :)

Perhaps the manifold would flatten out the dip I guess it bolts straight on? I would need another run on the rollers to set it up though.

Cheers RichieR
RichieR

Hey Paul!

Good to hear from you. I'm not surprised, people dont know how to drive their cars. And S3's heavy too. That's where the MGF is advantaged. I used to think that from standstill up to 50 km/h nothing much could beat the 'F. Lighter cars, yes. But not many... . Gosh i still miss it... . Yeah U should come down to Lausanne. Lunch or something.

On Darren's remark about modifying the chip i agree that you've gotta be careful. Not so much that the engine can't take the extra power, i reckon. Manufacturers DO set the programming very conservatively because they allow for low quality fuel. If you give 98 octane fuel to a chipped engine there's no reason why it should suffer. But the other organs like clutch, gearbox, will obviously be sumbitted to greater strains. And of course on turbo cars a 50 hp gain can transform a car's performance and make its brakes totally inadequate... which is dangerous for everyone.

I found that even on my MPI a few really harsh starts would make the clutch slip (and eventually give up).
Anthony Braham

One question. Does the chipping setup (that Rich did) applies same to all VVCs? Like if I get a chip that has same info as Rich's one, can I bolt it on straight away, or have to do the whole setup again on the dyno, and configure it again on my car?

And how much did FSE boost valve cost..?

I am quite curious, as I find my VVC feels quite slow just at the start...


thanks
Hanah Kim

Kim, I'd recommend that you had the chip configured to your particular car. The FSE Boostvalve really only increases the fuel pressure however I noticed a real difference to throttle feel when installed. Costs about £100 GBP. Also I use only 98RON super unleaded fuel. If this is unavailable I disconnect the chip and thus retard the ignition.

Cheers RichieR
RichieR

I agree with Richie- all engine management chips should be tailored for the car concerned if optimum performance and engine longevity are to be achieved. This work ought to be figured into the cost of the chip in the first place- but of course isn't.

Richie, not sure whether the VVC is 'programmed' to 'loose' torque, or whether your chip has been seet to optimise torque were when ever it can- which could lead to this early torque peak (on a standard engine, perhaps the ignition is set conservatively to prevent engine damage under high load from low engine speeds). I simply do not know- this is an area of expertise that David Andrews excells in: if you are reading this Dave, perhaps you could comment on this?

Regarding the exhausty manifold- yes it is a bolt on job- and yes, you are right, it would lead you down the trail to another RR session!
Rob Bell

Hannah> as I find my VVC feels quite slow just at the start...

I believe the ECU won't change the valve timing with the VVC mechanism until it considers that the engine (oil) has warmed up enough to be "safe".

Neil.
Neil

This thread was discussed between 28/11/2001 and 07/12/2001

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