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MG TD TF 1500 - 1954 TF - Oil Leak

I just inherited a 1954 MG TF (1250cc)

1) Does anyone know of a reputable British Sports Car service shop in the South Florida, USA (Fort Lauderdale/Miami Area)

2) I have an oil leak. The leak only occurs right after I turn off the motor and the leak stops soon after the motor stops running. During one instance, the car idled rough (after being driven for 15 min.), died and then the leaking proceeded ... then ceased.
I can see droplets coming from under the oil filter (were the filter spins onto the "pump").

This just started to happen.
Maybe there is something I do not know about driving the car. A "quirk", if you will, about keeping the rpms up while idling, to keep the oil pressure up? hhmmm

I've had the car less than a week. It was professionally transported from California to South Florida. It was serviced before I received it and the service included an oil & oil filter change.

My grandfather bought it 6 months used in 1954, my father took over ownership/care until he passed this last December. Now I am starting to care for the care and do not have any intimate knowledge about the care or quirks of the car. Though I do want to learn as I am planning to keep the car in our family.

It has been in our family for over 50 years.

Thank You in advance for any suggestions.

M Graham
MAG Graham

Leak: Does it have a spin-on adapter/spin-on filter? Or the original canister? The rubber seal between the canister and the pump body has always been a problem. Really easy to install a new seal without digging out the old one, and it will leak. Recenly got a new seal from Abingdon Spares that did not even come close to fitting. The "shutdown" drip may be normal. This has an "Archamedis (sp?) screw" rear main seal. It is a spiral machined into the back of the crankshaft, with a very close fitting aluminum "slinger". While running, the spiral screws the oil back into the pan. The second it stops, the residual oil pressure forces oil out, hence the drips for a few seconds. If the puddle is silver dollar to coffe-cup size, you are probably OK, much larger could be trouble! George
George Butz

It is an original canister (with the bolt in back). I'll try a new rubber seal.

The leakage is considerable, more than coffee cup size. I layed down paper when I noticed it, so that might of exaggerated the appearance.

Would a leak appear at the oil filter canister if the rear main seal was bad?

Thanks,
Mark
MAG Graham

MAG,
You say "This just started to happen." Does that mean it just started after it had it's oil changed ?? If so, I would suspect an incorrect oil seal or mproperly seated oil seal between the cannister and the pump body,
SPW
Steve Wincze

MAG,
Also,,,, it might be just that the canister in not put on tight enough,,, before installing a new seal, try to tighten the bolt a little bit,,,
I had one seal that was made out of a relativly hard rubber compound that the canister actually split after a few hundred miles,,,
If the rear main is bad, the leak associated with that would be directly under the front part of the bell housing ,,,
spw
Steve Wincze

First of all, my condolences on the death of your father...

Your family seems to have a serious "bond" with the '54 TF, having been in the family for over 50 years... I live in Michigan, and therefore will be of no help as to who to point you at in South Florida for MG service... As to the oil leak that you have, I will go over some known oil leak issues that are unique to these wee cars...

The most common oil leak problem with the EPAG & EPEG engines is at the Rear Main Seal... Using the word "seal" is a bit of a stretch when discribing it though... The design is an "oil slinger" (deep cut tread) that is part of the crankshaft, that throws the oil forward and therefore back into the sump area when the crankshaft is turning... There is a cork seal that fits between the bottom of the main rear bearing housing and the sump... The top half of the "seal" design is an aluminum arch shaped plate (Oil Thrower) and a gasket... The clearance between the crankshaft and this aluminum plate is very critical to keep leaks to a minimum... Once oil leaks past this "seal" system, it ends up in the bell housing where it eventually drip from a small hole at the base of the bell housing... As a side note, there is a drain tube that is a part of the main rear bearing housing, that protrudes into the sump, for oil to drain back from the bearing to the sump... There is a theory that if that tube is long enough to touch the surface of the sump oil, it can act as a siphon when the engine is stopped, and will suck oil up from the sump causing a leak at the main real seal... I had a main rear seal oil leak prior to rebuilding my EPEG engine, and upon assembly I cut the tube much shorter and took great care in the installation of the two part seal system... I now have NO OIL LEAKS from the main rear seal...

The other leak point that is quite common is the front crankshaft seal... The original seal design is graphite impregnated rope, having an upper and lower two part seal... I replaced mine with a modern lip-type seal and there are NO OIL LEAKS at te front seal either...

You mentioned visible oil drops at the oil pump "where the filter spins onto the pump"... It sounds like you have a "Spin-On Conversion" rather than the original canister and paper filter insert... With either design it is important to ensure that the old rubber seal has been removed, and that the seat for the rubber seal is clean with no debris, or bits of the previous seal... That will allow proper seating of the rubber seal and will maintain a leak free filter installation...

In closing, I suggest that you search the threads on this site for similar help and advice as you wade into the wouderful world of "T" Series ownership... Also go to the Moss Motors web site, or call them to get a parts catalog... You will want to get a Shop Manual if you don't already have one... (www.mossmotors.com or 800-667-7872)...

Cheers mate,

Rod Macleod - ('55 TF 1500 - HDB46/6798 - "Molly")
Rod Macleod

Hi Mark,

If you've not already noticed it, The T-Series is a quasi-cohesive group, that shares the most intimate details about our relationships with our precious Ts.

Welcome.

It was said many years ago in the TSO, that its not the cars, its the people.

If, as it appears, your oil leak is originating from the filter assembly, don't waste time trying to fix it. The filter (cannisters) are expensive - last count - around $12. The significantly less expensive FRAM PH3600 from Wal-Mart at about $3.50 (Canadian $$) and will quickly justify buying the modern filter adapter assembly.

Bob Grunau is the actual manufacturer of these, which can be purchased directly from him - grunau.garage@sympatico.ca.

Once this is in place, you can then spend the rest of your life, trying to have a completely dry engine - good luck.

There's an old addage .. "Do you know why the Brits don't make TV sets? ... because they haven't yet found out how to make them leak oil!"

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

The old addage I always heard was "Do you know why the English drink warm beer?...because they have Lucas refrigerators"
LaVerne

MAG,
Last year I had a leak that appeared to be coming from the oil filter. The source turned out to be the braided flexible line that runs from the engine to the firewall for the oil pressure gauge. It ran down the block and off the filter. Just something to check.
Welcome to the board. Thanks for making the commitment of keeping the TF in the family. I'm sure your father would be proud of your efforts. I imagine that after 50 years of ownership, you'll be running across time-capsule insights where your father came up with unique ways of dealing with the problems that he faced once and you're facing again.
Best of luck.

Safety? Fast?
Scott Ashworth '54 TF 1250
S. R. Ashworth

MAG, I see you found the BBS. I'm the one who read your question on the Carnut site and suggested this one. The good folks here will certainly try to help. Browse the other MG threads too. They can be quite entertaining, although there are a few goofballs on here, too!

Paul Briggs
69 MGC GT
(and former 50 YA owner)
Paul Briggs

The canister leak and rear main leak are not at all related. The rear mains just leak to some extent specifically on shutdown. If you have not discovered the archives, check them out. The leak thing has been covered many times. Chances are if your T-series doesn't leak there is no more oil left. Same priciple as the electrics- alegedly smoke-powered- when there is a bunch of smoke that leaks out everything electric stops working! What was that Paul said about goofballs?
George Butz

Laverne
There is nothing wrong with my Lucas refrigerator, it makes great coffee. I keep my cool in a Lucas oven!
John James

I have always understood that if your toy has a big oil leak, then you have a problem, and that if you have no oil leak at all then you have an even bigger problem, but that if you have just a small one, then leave it alone because everything is perfectly normal.

Welcome to the wonderful world of British Sports Cars.
G.E. Love

Goofballs we aren't - maybe just a LITTLE eccentric!

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Gordon;
ECENTRIC? Does that mean we are are all running a little bit OFF CENTER?
We should all remember that MG'S do not leak oil. They just mark their territory
Sandy Sanders
conrad sanders

Mark - Now that we have that all out of our system, there are 2 or 3 sealing rings that come with the filters for the canister oil filter. In the set of three, the mid thickness one it the one to use (I believe that it measures something around 0.080" thick). You will need an inspection mirror, a good light and preferably some dental exploratory tools to get the old seal out of the grove. This take a lot of fussing and patience to get it all out of the groove, but all of it must be out before installing the new ring. Putting the new ring in is only slightly less difficult than getting the old one out. It must fit into the grove all the way to the bottom and all the way around. Once you have a new seal in place and it doesn't leak, leave it there! Don't try changing it each time you do hange oil, all you will accomplish by doing that is to cause yourself a lot of work and increase the probability that it will leak. When we first got our TD, the old seal was rock hard, but never leaked a drop. It stayed in place until I restored the car some 7 years later (it was my wife's everyday driver during that time) and it was only after replacing the seal that I had a problem with it leaking, once so bad that I lost all the oil and hammered a couple of rod bearings. Since then, I got a seal installed properly and it has been in there for the past 4 or 5 years. The other alternative is to take Gordon's advice and switch to the spin on adapter and use the spin on filters. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

MAG,

Before messing with the filter I would confirm the exact location of the leak. Place a large piece of cardboard under the engine (3 ft square.) Wipe the drops under the filter away and then run the engine. Check for drops forming under the filter while the engine is running. If they form, the filter is leaking. If not, leave it for now. When you shut the engine off you should see drops on the carboard below the back of the oil pan. This is normal. If you look at the rear of the oil pan where it connects to the transmission bell housing, you should see end of a split pin hanging out of a hole. This is the drain for the oil that drop when the engine stops.

A filter leak should be worse while running, not after shutdown.

Let us know what you find.

When you are ready to change the oil filter, you can stay with the original canister if it is not leaking (my preference) and get a high quality cartridge at NAPA. Their part is: NAPA Gold filter 1300. It will include new gasket rings as Dave said.

Good luck with the TF!
Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Thank You Everyone for all the great info. (and the sentiment [Rod Macleod])

I've done all the preliminary diagnostics as recomended by you all and have determined that it is the oil filter canister seal (I do not have an aftermarket spin on). It seems oil can only leak from 3 locations. I let the car sit for a while (about 1 week). Put a new, clean, metal protective oil pan/sheet under the car. Put in some oil, started the car and witnessed oil stream out of the direct center (6 o'clock, if you will) of were the canister meets the mount. I then shut the motor off and the leaking decreased to an occasional drip.

I definitely want to keep the stock canister, as I do not want to detract from the cars orginality.

David, et al - Thanks for the seal advice. This is the route I will take.

Evan - I can get these cartridge/seals from a NAPA Auto Parts store ?!?! :) Shouldn't I be trying someplace like a Moss Motors?

I'll repost here to let everyone know how it turns out.

Thank You All, Again,
Mark
MAG Graham

Mark - No need to get the filters from Moss, the ones from NAPA work just fine. I forget the number at the moment, but they are a very common filter and made by all the filter manufactures. I only get filters from Moss when they happen to have them on sale, otherwise, it is from the local auto parts house or NAPA. The important part is to get the right seal into the grove and get it firmly pressed dow properly in the grove all the way around. It sounds like you have the same problem that I had at one time, the seal is not fitted clear down to the bottom of the seal. Once it is installed correctly, it won't need to be changed again for many years. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

part #: NAPA Gold filter 1300

I would suggest calling ahead to the local NAPA. They will likely have to get them from the distribution warehouse.

I forget which brand Moss sells. I have one of their gauze filters around here somewhere. I ordered it by mistake.
Evan Ford - TD 27621

This thread was discussed between 07/06/2005 and 22/06/2005

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