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MG TD TF 1500 - 220 volt gear used with 240 volts?

Is this an issue? We are currently looking to purchase a PID controller, relays, thermocouple and heating collars for an injection moulding machine that the club is about to build. There seems to be plenty of really inexpensive equipment available from SE Asia that runs on 220 volts. Our domestic supply is 240 V here in Oz. Anyone see a problem? Keen to hear from the electrical engineers out there. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter,

If you are looking at low cost units then the answer is probably no they will not work on 240V. The problem is the power supply. Power supplies can be designed to work on a large input voltage range but these are more complex and therefore cost more to produce. If you can get a detailed spec of the unit you should find this voltage range.

John


J Scragg

As a general rule here in the states, most items listed requiring voltage of 220, 230 or 240 will function just fine....however if there is an element that specifically requires a given voltage it may not function. None come to mind though. I believe in a good number of countries the standard socket voltage is in the 220 to 240 volt range verses what we have in North America which is 110 to 120 volt. The 220, 240 volt range here is achieved by combining two of the 120 hot leads to make the 240 volts. I used to install a good number of electric gate operators that ranged from 12 volts DC up to 480 volts AC. By law I was not allowed to connect any AC voltage and I didn't particularly wish to do so anyway. Frequently though I would test the systems by using a generator to power up the systems with either 120 or 240 volts. As a general rule in nearly all of the higher voltage machines I have dealt with including some CNC machines, the higher voltage is usually running some high amperage device such as a motor. The controls systems are almost always running off of a step down transformer and more often than not use 24 volt AC. Bottom line...contact the manufacture and put the question to them.
L E D LaVerne

My spot welder uses 220 or 240 volts and works very well. Electric co. says I have 240 volts at the panel. I don't know about critical electronics, Basically all of my welders are 220/240. PJ
PJ Jennings

Thanks for the comments thus far. I'll try and contact the manufacturer in China but I expect to encounter language issues, as this was the result of an earlier inquiry on another Chinese item sold on E Bay. I can see how equipment designed to run at 240 may operate at 220 or even how 110 can be made to produce 220 and so run a 240 V welder in North America, but still unclear on whether the heating elements would burn out prematurely because of the increase in the current. Or even what wattage item I should purchase. The desired is 165 watts and the closest is either 150 or then 280 watts with the 220V supplied. The 280 operating at well below capacity may be the better bet. The PID should be able to handle it, because of attempts to internationalise supply, but who knows? Be great if they had a rep here in Australia, but they don't. This question can only really be answered by an electrical engineer. I have a couple of mates who are sparkies here and neither is sure. I've read the recent Australian Standard but that doesn't provide any real answers. I'm going to call the professional body here today and pose the question. I'll post the result here. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter, I think you will find that 240v used to be stated as the nominal volt for Aus. I just googled it and found that it is now stated as being between 216 and 253 so it fluctuates around the current(sic) nominal voltage of 230. I don’t think you have a problem.
Chris
C I Twidle

In the last century the EU decided that 230V/50Hz will be the standard. In D it was no problem for the energy supplier to change from 220V to 230V. The most critical equipment have been the bulbs. The most heating processes are regulated. So more power will lead to minor time of heating.

If you will find out that your voltage is on the upper value 253V I guess it could be critical. But you can measure the voltage range by time to time.If it is too high a transformer 240V/220V will be a solution.
W_Mueller

Peter

As suggested you need to obtain full specifications, some equipment has adjustable tappings to be compatible with different supply voltages.

I would suggest monitoring your domestic supply voltage over 24 hours especially if you are surrounded by residents that have solar panels. I have just been through the hoops here in Tas where my supply was peaking at 260V. If you find you are experiencing high voltages talk to your electricity supplier and request that they adjust the tapping on your supply transformer. They are obliged to do this as voltages out of spec pose a safety risk.

Here in Tas they supply a device which continuously monitors your supply for faults, why they are not used Australia wide defies logic.

When you have the current draws for your device you could source a suitable transformer to reduce your supply voltage to 220V, however this wont be a cheap exercise and will the probably negate the economics of you purchase. If the maximum current draw does not exceed 10 Amps you might like to look about for a laboratory "Variac" which will enable you to adjust the supply voltage to your device. Pity you were not 18 months earlier I threw one in the tip when I left NSW.

There is a glimmer to be optimistic, most appliances are designed to operate on a nominal AC mains supply ranging from 220 to 250 Volts.

Graeme
G Evans

It will depend of power required. I tried running a 220V laser printer on 240V. The fuse draws just under 1,000W. The fuse burned up pretty quickly. I then invested in a step-down transformer, worked well.

When I lived in Hong Kong guys used 240v pool pumps on the 220V up there, they did not last very long. The guys who bought a step up transformer had more success.

It is common for utility companies in civilized countries to have +/- 10% variance, legally so in Australia that would be 216 to 264V.

Here in the USA I don’t see more than a 2-3V variation on the input to my PC UPS even with air conditioners cycling. But then I have new wiring in the old house and a very new drop from the main supply. Our local transformer is one house away, thst is fed by a 11,600V line.

If the current draw is not more than a couple of hundred watts I would get a Variac and set it to supply the required output.

Heating is a different thing to motor draws as far as equipment is concerned, figure out which it is.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Devices made for the North American market are generally for 110 to 117 volts on a 60 cycle frequency, and the hooker here is the 60 cycle frequency. The rest of the world uses 50 cycles; so what’s the difference? Here is a grossly simplified answer.

Any 50 cycle rotating device will produce more torque because it needs more iron in the motor, and this in turn generates more flux, and it’s the flux that creates the torque of an electrical motor. So Europe in their great wisdom, decided to standardize on 50 cycle power. However there is a down side to this too.

As many of you probably know a computer monitor is synchroinized at frequencies of 60 cycles or greater (let’s call it Hertz from here). That is because the human eye is able to discriminate 50 cycles as flickering - most annoying. Southern Ontario was 115 volts 50 Hz until 1950.

If you are burning fuses, its likely that any rotating device rated for 60 Hz, simply doesn’t have enough iron to to produce the required flux of 50 Hz, so the device works harder, usually increasing amperage above the rating of the device, blowing the fuse or breaker. Even if you’re using a step-up or step-down transformer, its the source that determines the circuit frequency. A 50 Hz motor will work well on a 60 Hz source, but not vice-versa. You should always check the plate of the manufacturer.

For other devices, most today, have auto-detect circuitry and will make the neceaasry adjustments automatically, irrespective of voltage or frequency and you won’t notice them.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

... forgot to add .. My house is wired for both 115 and 220 volts. I have several kitchen devices that run on 220V, Induction stove, LEDs, Air Frier, Electric Kettle (not very popular in the US). So 220 V is great for these resistence-type devices but is almost useless for motors, as I don’t have a 50 Hz source.

I’ve tried 2 220 volt motors, but both are 50hz and turn only feebly.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué
Gord Clark

Informative post Gord. Thanks. The connection between the annoyance caused by flickering and frequency (cps) and the difference that moving to 60 cycles makes was something that I was not aware of. We all knew our voltage here as 240 and casually referred to it as such, (Does it use 240?), but we are now actually 230 V as has been said earlier. Our frequency is 50 cps and is the same as Europe and as you say as the rest of the world. To my mind it does seem odd that North America has adopted such a different approach to power generation and distribution. My question has been answered however. The consensus is that there is no issue. Thanks for your contributions both on and off line. The order has been placed for the 220 V gear and the collar heaters rated at 280 watts are about to be purchased once we lock down the desired ID of the collar. We'll be using four collars and two thermocouples for the heating tube. The top two collars will act as pre heaters and will have their PID set at a slightly lower temperature. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Gord,
All modern industrial 3 phase induction motors are designed to run on both 50 and 60 Hz and are stamped accordingly. The 60Hz run at a higher voltage and have 6/5 times the power output. Most of the so called single phase motors available nowadays are actually cheap three phase motors and run using a capacitor which is commonly known as a "Dalander circuit". In the case of heaters which are purely resitive you simply go back to ohm's law. I have been dealing with industrial electrical equipment as an electrical engineer all my working life.
Regards
Declan
Declan Burns

Hi Declan

Totally of the topic of MGs.

We have to be careful of generalisation, parts of the world operate differently. Split phase motors here in Aus are not 3 phase they are only wound with two windings, a start winding connected via a centrifugal switch to a start capacitor to create a phase shift and a run winding.

In Aus 3 phase motors operate on a 415V supply and operate via a star/delta starting circuit if they are not variable speed. Usually these are only found in an industrial environment.

I wont go into any detail on DC motors that is a mine field in its own right.

All grid AC power in Aus is at a frequency of 50Hz.

Why aircraft AC power is 400 Hz is beyond my memory capabilities to remember.

There is an interesting misadventure behind what Peter has raised. I had some fellas I was in the RAAF with purchase American electrical appliances because they were cheap when they went overseas. Because they were designed for 115V 60Hz they thought they only needed a transformer to be able to run them on the Aus grid. All devices suffered from very speedy premature failure because of the lower supply frequency.

"There is no such thing as a cheap lunch".

Graeme
G Evans

Graeme,
Yes it is different all over. We have a 400V 50Hz three phase feed to all houses and appartments here in Germany. The reason for this is that we run our electric cookers and shower heaters on three phase. In Ireland, where I came from, the houses had only a 230V 50Hz supply. If you were to show up on a building site with a 230V drill you would be kicked off the site immediately. Only 120V power tools are allowed on sites.So much for a united Europe.
Regards
Declan
Declan Burns

Funny, Once while visiting England, the wife wanted to use her hair dryer, which I bought an adapter plug for it. Plugged it in and it made the weirdest sound I ever heard, that was before the smoke came out of it! Found out not only the voltage was different but the cycles per second were different also, our stuff works on 60 cycles. Had to go out and buy her a hairdryer just for the UK! Interesting. PJ
PJ Jennings

Graeme, aircraft systems are at higher frequencies due to smaller size for transformers etc. I worked on the English Electric Canberra which had 400Hz as well as 1600Hz. All AC was created by dynamotor powered off DC power from the battery and DC generators.

That 1600Hz played havoc when it got near our audio systems as we encountered when adding radios for use in Vietnam.

All subsequent aircraft I worked on used AC generated by generators and if DC was needed it was done by transformer rectifiers. The B747 had enormous power requirements for 10 fuel pumps, galley ovens and on some models water pumps for water injection for the engines.

In the USA we have 3 wires into the house, a neutral and 2 phases opposed by 180degrees. If we want 240V we just use 2 phases for ovens, cooktops, dryers, air conditioners and hot water tanks. Of course some of those use natural gas and that is provided freely by our politicians opening their mouths.

We are also allowed backup generators, I have a 17KW unit that kicks on itself and runs most of my house, nice to have up here in the Tundra.

Japan is split into 2 camps, mostly 100V 60Hz, but part is 110V.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Standard industrial motors in Canada are 550/3/60. In the US its 440/3/60.

Where I live - Québec, we have an abundance of hydro power and we sell to the entire north-east US. Right now, my power costs me 6.9¢/Kwh.

Power transmission from the many hydro dams in Québec is 75KV DC (to minimize corona losses). In front of my house is a 2300 volt 3 phase line. Balancing loads is an art! Each house has a 10:1 transformer and a breaker. That's why I was able to wire for a few 220V devices.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

This thread was discussed between 27/05/2020 and 01/06/2020

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