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MG TD TF 1500 - Air Intake Manfold Question
|I'm in the process of doing a frame-off restoration of a 52 TD. I purchased the car partially disassembled as the previous owner had started a restoration many years ago, but never finished.|
The engine was also partially disassembled and the carbs, intake manifold, etc. had already been removed. I have the engine rebuild nearly complete and was working on cleaning up the air intake manifold.
HOWEVER, when I went to check the fit of the air manifold to the engine, it wouldn't fit. It's too long and the holes where it mounts to the carbs are too far apart.
The engine has 1 1/4" SU carbs. Could this air intake manifold be from a Mark II engine or a TF?
I've attached a photo that has 3 views of the manifold I have.
Any clues as to what this manifold belongs to?
|Sounds like it - that's the only reason why the hole spacing would be off. They are rare, but still strangle the engine somewhat. (TFs used separate Vokes filters).|
I'm definitely in the market for it (I have a Mark II lacking that part), and would partial-trade a stock snorkel, if that interested you.
Is there anything about your car to suggest it is a Mark II car - serial number? Do you have any 1-1/2" carbs?
Best thanks, Tom Lange
I suspect your air manifold is off a MG ZA/ZB Magnette which uses the B Series engine. The clue is the stub that fits into the air cleaner. In your photograph it appears to be tilted at an angle as per the ZA/ZB. I recall that the TD one is vertical. I bought one of these manifolds from a stall at the mg spares day a few years ago when I had a TD. The costs was about
Must just have been my photos or the manipulation I did of them to fit them all into a single pic, but the air cleaner fitting is perpendicular to the length of the manifold. The fitting underneath that accepts the 8mm bolt that goes into the (fuel) intake manifold is also perpendicular to the length of the manifold.
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that this air intake manifold must fit a Mark II.
I hope you are right and can swop your manifold for a correct one - you have done a superb job with a polishing mop! One other point - do the ports in the manifold line up with the carbs? i.e. is it just the bolt holes that are out. The photo that I was referring to is the one with the maifold on the car. The long stud appears to be at an angle but it could be the manifold and carb flanges are not parallel.
|This certainly looks to be a TD part. All Magnette intake manifolds are flatter with a large(r) octagon on it. |
The picture is from the Internet (http://www.oily-hands-mg-life.co.uk/mg-za-zb-magnette-parts.html), but I have a ZA part for the H2 carbs that looks virtually the same.
It'is a little bit too wide but with a little bit of filing on the carburettor my Magnette H2-manifold can be made to fit the XPAG H2's, as I've seen on at least one TD. I won't do that because I found the TD part.
|Willem van der Veer|
|Thought I had the only one of those in the world - am I seeing 2 bolt holes and 2 other small holes in each mounting flange? Dan Craig|
|Good day all:|
Re: the aluminium pipe in query.
The parts book AKD 834 lists the following for the regular production car: Pipe Air--Cleaner X 24277, Air Cleaner Assembly as X 35063. The photograph given is that of a TD unit, of that much, I am sure. I know the above numbers are long defunct and the later AAA nos. are probably of the same worth.
Within the Mk.II Section, of the noted Parts List, the Pipe--Air Cleaner is listed as X 24271 and the Air Cleaner Assembly as 168388.
There is no added information as to size or hole descriptions.
I have heard that the Air Cleaner for the Mk.II was reported to be larger, whether in diameter or depth I cannot say. If that is a fact it may account for a length difference in the pipe, away from the block, and if larger carburetters were employed a difference in the fixing hole placement.
Not much help and still inconclusive as well, what ?
The above size suggestion is based only on hearsay. I have never had the privilege of being able to compare the two using proven examples.
Therefore; once again I will bow to those with greater knowledge involving the Mk.II car differences.
Jack Emdall, TD3191, Halfmoon Bay, British Columbia, Canada
|None of mine (3) have the 2 extra holes in the flanges, looks to be vent holes. My MKII came with a pair of pancake style air filters and no manifold. Abingdon Spares' Jerry Gogan recommended just opening up a regular manifolds' intakes to fit the 1 1/2" carbs. Marvin,ct|
|See http://www.ttalk.info/MK2Intake.htm for information from Ian Bowers about MKII intakes|
and http://www.ttalk.info/Tech/intake_manifolds.htm for some more.
I seem to recall that the only difference in the SA-2440 standard intake manifold and the SA-2440/1 MKII intake manifold is the size of the carburetor mounting opening and mounting threads. Bud
|Interesting Dan. I know Tom is the resident MK II expert. I don't remember the unique MK II carbs as having the vent holes of later 1 1/2" carbs...but what do I know.|
Can't tell from your pictures, you say the manifold is too wide, BUT do the manifold flanges centerlines line up with the carb openings?
If so, then you're very likely correct in that your air manifold is for the 1 1/2" carbs.
If you're in the Ypsi/Ann Arbor area, swing by to doublecheck as I've got both sizes on the shelf.
...Then just swap with Tom and everybody's happy!
|Came across a TD air cleaner manifold with vent holes a few years back. Has the wide bolt spacing same as a MKII late version manifold,yet MKII carbs do not have vent ports. Close examination and a little measuring revealed a very nicely created air cleaner intake to fit MGA carbs to a TD while still retaining the original look. Picture shows MKII unit beside created piece. A real give away is the location of the support stud boss on the underside of the casting. The MKII carbs are substantially longer than the standard carbs, so the support stud is nearer the air filter attaching stud location. Distance between the 2 studs on MKII manifold is about 1" - on the conventional manifold it is nearer to 2". Measuring this distance may help ID the piece. Possible that this one is a MKII manifold drilled for use on the MGA carbs as well. Dan
|I thought I had written earlier, but it seems to have been swallowed...|
I agree with Dan, that the intake has been drilled for use with a later, vented 1-1/2" carb set-up. Pity such a thing happened.
|Thanks for everyone's comments. |
Stephen Swarts sent me a copy of the March, 2008, Totally T-Type newsletter. In it was an article written by him about the TD Mk II air manifolds. Mine seems to match except for the vent holes that it has. I have no idea why they're there although I have to admit I thought they were normal since I have an MGA which has those vents in its SU carbs. After seeing the photos in his article, I realized they weren't normal. If anyone else would like to take a look at that article, here's a link to the location of the Totally T Type archives: http://www.tregister.org/ttt_archive.php
Per Jim Northrup's and Jan's question, yes the centerlines on this manifold do line up with the carbs.
After seeing the photo that Willem van der Veer sent, I'm more certain than ever that it is not a Magnette air manifold.
As for the air cleaner, the one I have is the smaller sized one ("normal" for the standard TD) which seems to fit this air manifold fine (and hopefully, the correct manifold, also).
In your pix the carbs appear to be H4, 1 1/2 inch
and not H2,1 1/4 inch....!
And they do shine....!
Happy MG Trails.
DrRx. TD 823.
|They sure look like 1-1/4"s to me, with only two screws holding each dashpot to the carb body...|
|While on the subject of TD air cleaner manifolds anyone identify the manifold in the pic? You'll notice the part number 24277 which seems to fit the general sequence of engine part numbers for a TD engine part, yet is rarely seen on TD's.|
Peter TD 5801
I have exactly the same number as you on my TD air cleaner manifold. I suggest that rather it being a part number it is a casting number which would have been part of the pattern used to cast this part.
|Tom, the extra drilling could be heliarc welded and it would be pretty much invisible. George|
|Regarding Conrad's comment about the carbs perhaps being 1 1/2" carbs: I measured the carb opening where the air manifold fits and they are indeed 1 1/4" across.|
By the way, as an update to my wanting to make sure of what I have, I will be getting together with Jim (earlier note above) to compare what I have to his parts. He and I both belong to the Michigan T Register so that'll happen later this month at a club gathering.
|The Service Parts List AKD834 shows "Pipe to air cleaner" as Part No. X24277. The MKII section does not list any different Part No. for this pipe, only gaskets. Bud|
|Thanks Bud. Reason I asked is I've seen at least 6 cars here, including mine, with the 24277 casting pictured above yet both Hugh & Chris (whose opinions I do respect) state offline they have never seen such a manifold before & so its originality is thefore in question. Has anybody anywhere ever seen one on a TD apart from here in Oz? P.S. The one on John Walton's car makes 7.|
Peter TD 5801
Make that 8.
I found the manifold in the picture on Marktplaats a Dutch advertising site.
It was all corroded so it was definitely old.
I'll fit this on my Y-type when I finish my twin carburettor set up.
That will be a nice example off 'reverse cannibalism' as so many Y-types died horribly, when their throbbing XPAG hearts were ripped from their bodies to feed the cannibalistic T-types, their still warm bodies were left to be cannibalized Lucas/Jaeger/Smiths vultures! ;-)
|Willem van der Veer|
|Thanks Willem. Mine is very similiar but not part of the same casting batch as it has a diamond shaped mark where your CMA is. Nice to see another & it sounds like it's going to a good home.|
Can you identify the initials within the diamond on your manifold. I can't make out mine.
I will have a look at my neighbours today as well as his Triplex windscreen identification.
Found the casting mark to read in a diamond as coVar.
I had a look at my neighbours manifold and there are no markings on it whatsoever. His car is a 1953 Mk1
|Hi Willem & John. I'll check out the detail when I visit the car tomorrow John. I was in Newcastle over the weekend where I spoke to a guy who is respected Australia wide for his knowledge of early MG's, particularly T Types & the earlier models. He believes the manifold carrying the 24277 number is from a YT. (This would explain why Hugh & Chris had not seen one before.) That should make your day Willem!|
Peter TD 5801
|Peter, Do you remember the paint you used on the valve cover? It looks great! PJ|
|Paul S Jennings|
|I have not worked on one for years, but I seem to remember that a YT had a single SU carb, and was rated at 8 less HP for that reason.|
The Y-type Saloon has one carburettor, the Y-type Tourer (or YT) has a twin carburettor set-up, with a 'TD-manifold' but a much larger airfilter.
It would make my day if the numbered ones are YT, but I don't think that I should stumble on a used YT manifold in Holland; they were extremely rare in Holland when new.
I've found some pictures of YT engines with unnumbered manifold (see thread on Y-type BBS).
My guess is that the numbered manifolds are early manifolds?
|Willem van der Veer|
|Ah, that explains it. My memory isn't what it used to be, alas.|
I've seen the numbered manifold on a TD, but have no memory whether early or late.
|Good day all:|
I do not want to appear as contradictory to any other members regarding the aluminium, pipe-air cleaner, presently in query.
However; and no offense intended, My Factory copy of The TD Service Parts List, June 1958, AKD 834, has listed as the first item on the last Page (R4), of Section R, Mark II, Supplement to M.G. midget (series TD):
Pipe-Air Cleaner-X 24271---finishing at Engine No. 17028).
I reckon that to be a supersession number but as I write, I am no expert.
Also, I have never seen, in reality, the embossed pipes with the X 24277 part number nor the three separate initials. (be interesting as to what they mean). And obviously, with respect to the former my car, TD3191, is sans the markings as well.
I trust I am not out of line; and I remain respectfully:
Jack Emdall, Halfmoon Bay, British Columbia, Canada.
|Paul, the pic I posted is not of my car but one of many I have taken over the years as an aid to my restoration. However my rocker cover is the same colour. See pic attached. I don't wish to divert this thread away from TD air cleaner manifolds so if you want to contact me offline, pjbm(at)bigpond.com I will be happy to pass on the details.|
Peter TD 5801
|Hi John. I've checked my car & my manifold is identical to yours including the detail in the casting diamond "coVar". What is intriguing is Bud's post above which states in part: "The Service Parts List AKD834 shows "Pipe to air cleaner" as Part No. X24277." This is the number cast into the 8 manifolds I'm aware of, including mine. I've asked the question on the YT thread but the response is unclear. I would love to discover that it is indeed an original TD part (the 242 number certainly indicates it) but the seeming rarity of the part & the information I have at this stage from 3 of the most knowledeable TD people that I know worldwide, seems to suggest that it probably isn't.. Bummer! |
I wonder where it came from? Cheers.
Peter TD 5801
|Peter, see http://www.ttalk.info/AKD834R.pdf for more details on the MkII supplement. Bud|
|Kovar is trademark of Carpenter Technology Corporation who makes alloys and specialty metal castings. They have been in business since 1889.|
Not sure what, if any relation this has to the logo/name on the air cleaner but it sounds interesting and somewhat related.
Maybe a quick note to Carpenter Technology Corp would reveal if they were in the business in 1950's of making castings for Nuffield or some other supplier for MG parts.
|Just to add fuel to the fire:|
|Kovar is a nickle steel alloy, especially designed to match the coefficient of expansion of (hard) glass. |
It was developed to allow glass to metal seals, especially in the vacuum tube industry.
|There is a sister alloy called Invar.|
It has, over a limited temperature range, an almost zero coefficient of expansion.
I have used Invar for temperature stable frequency references. I believe the original Meter Bars were Invar.
I have used Kovar, often in the construction of microwave tubes.
|Thanks guys. If I'm reading the supplement correctly Bud I'm surprised at the huge number of parts that differed from the TD for the Mk 11. I've checked out Carpenter's website & will contact them by post. That they are the manufacturer's seems more than likely given their long association with automobiles. The physical properties of Kovar make it ideal for use as an air cleaner manifold. I'll post the result of my query when I get it. Cheers.|
Peter TD 5801
|Good day again:|
This will probably be laughed off by the more expert amongst the group and I should really stop submitting my silly wanderings. Anyway here goes !
Embossed Part No. and other initials found on some examples of the aluminium pipe to air cleaner unit.
I was pondering if possibly it had became a fashion statement sweeping through the TD fraternity, of and in the cars' heyday, to somehow burnish off all traces of the numbering and assorted lettering. It may have been considered as being detractive from the overall look of an especially highly polished carburetter assembly ?
How imprudent I must seem to suggest such rubbish !
Right then, there it is ! I've now donned my tin hat and made a shell scrape, so fire away chaps !
Emdall, TD3191, Halfmoon Bay, B.C., Canada
This thread was discussed between 15/01/2014 and 23/01/2014
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