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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Almond green

Has anyone in the states had a formula mixed in the last few years that they are confident is a good match and willing o share the supplier and the mixing formula?


Thanks in advance.
L E D LaVerne

With all of us members looking for suitable formulas to replace the old pigments may I suggest that we establish a fresh database for current product lines and formulas. I do have the correct Ivory that I personally had made up I have obtained two formulas for SSG though I do not have their permission to share yet and need to mix a sample to do a spray out of one. The other the gentleman was kind enough to send me a sample spray out that looks very good. I am also looking for a correct Autumn Red and MG Red which I have had little luck locating any usable info for.

Bruce Cunha is diligently researching Sun Bronze and I believe he is very close to his quest in a formulation for that color as well.

There is a member in our club who has a beautifully sprayed Clipper Blue TC which I will attempt to gain its formula as well.

One more color worth investigation is the color for the center gauge panel. This color has been NA from Moss for several years now in the US. I’m not sure how accurate the color it was.

It is a formidable undertaking and one I’m willing to be a part of in establishing and maintaining the database as a reference for all to use in the future. These base formulas could then be tweaked to suit ones own tastes. The accuracy of the initial formulations for restoration purposes should be well establish through careful analysis and comparisons of known usable original samples. The quality of each so as to set a modern standard for body finishes. It is paramount to ithe data base success as a reference point that the formulas are as accurate in their details

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Good plan Bill. I have two areas on this early 50 TD that I plan on taking to a couple of paint shops for some scans and test mixes.....problem is that the are clearly two different shades. Assuming that the variation is from the use of two different types of paint ( lacquer vs enamel) on the tub verses the wings and that perhaps they matched originally, I'm wondering which shade would be most accurate to being original?
L E D LaVerne

Although Moss no longer carries the dash panel paint, Abingdon Spares does have it. I recently got a spray can from them, and while it may be a bit on the light side, I am please with the look. (that after the previous owner painted it the same shade of tomato red as the car. Both are being repainted (the dash and the car), so I too am looking for a formula or color number for a good shade of Autumn Red,
Lew Palmer

LaVerne there has been quite a lot of discussion regarding a shade difference between the wings and the rest of the car when it comes to Almond Green. I have not seen an Almond Green car in my lifetime to know either way so can’t comment. Whether both alkyd enamels and nitrocellulose lacquers were used simultaneously for Almond Green cars and not others would be a big mystery to me. I would expect paint degradation to be much faster with the enamels over the lacquers given the same whether conditions and paint care over the same time period. Many of the tints from that time from we’re not colorfast and would become chalky and bleach out after several years. An example would be Reds fading into orange

Lew. Thank you regarding information on the dash paint. Please show us the results when you do your spray out. I’d be very interested in how it looks. I have several late panels with original paint but they don’t have that metallic gold/bronze look that the Moss paint had. Instead they are more a muted mocha color for a lack of a description and without a metallic element

Bill Chasser
TD-4834



W A Chasser

I have had a number of persons contact me recently that have had paint mixed. None of the suppliers were willing to share the formulas. :-(

I remember when I had my MG Red mixed for a touch up about 15 years ago they wanted $150 just to write the formula down, which I declined.

Anyway if you can obtain formulas, I am willing to put them up the OMGTD/TF sites. Just email them to me.
Christopher Couper

Thats pretty weird Chris. I have been getting paint mixed for more that 40 years and every time I have the mix is on the label of the can just in case I need to have some more made.
L E D LaVerne

Bill,

Here is the repainted dash panel using the Abingdon Spares paint. There is most definitely a slight metallic cast to the color.



Lew Palmer

LaVern, Is your Almond green a metallic color like the TF color?
J K Barter

Yes it's a very fine metallic


L E D LaVerne

I spent a fair deal of time looking into the dreaded 'MG Red' colour during last year. My conclusion was that nearly every colour I observed as supposed 'MG Red', was different from everyone else !! (These samples were obtained from both individuals and various ,experienced MG suppliers
from around the world).

What I do know is that there is also of confusion between MG Red and Autumn Red ! Autumn Red is much,much darker (more Maroon look) when compared to MG Red. TFs were originally MG Red.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").


Rob Grantham

I pay extra to insure that the mix i have made is documented. It is well worth the expense when more needs to be made and consistency is necessary. Most people don’t realize that this can be done but don’t ask for it in advance. If you don’t ask it doesn’t get done.

Like I said previously I do have an ivory and two SSG formulas

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

I think Bill's idea is a good one. Trying to have current formula's for original colors is important to our hobby.

Chris has been great at documenting the various items for our cars. I recommend we make sure he gets all information.

Interesting on the formulas. My paint store gives me formulas for everything they make up.

As for Sun Bronze.

I have concluded that Sun Bronze for the TD is the same as for the Y. I have not found any of the copper bronze TDs that say they are sun bronze that are original. I have been in contact with 5 owners of the more copper bronze all were repainted with other colors. Unless someone comes forward that has an original Sun Bronze TD in the copper bronze color (see picture), I feel we should conclude that the Y and the TD used the same Sun Bronze.

The formula for PPG 23662, which Chris lists for Sun Bronze is now called Amber Brown Poly. It is a 72 Toyota color. In a spray out, it comes very close to an original ICI Sun Bronze chip that I got from a Y owner in Germany.

The International MG Y group worked with PPG back in 1995 to have Sun Bronze made in a current formula. I have the formula, but it is not a formula that US paint companies can make. I have contacted PPG in the UK to see if they can help with a formula that can be made in the US. Unfortunately, they will not assist outside the UK. They did give me an email for PPG USA, but so far, I have not heard back from them.

I am still trying to find some original paint on my TD. All parts of my TD other than the main body and doors, was hot dipped, removing all paint. I have door panels and dash to take out to see if I can find any of the original paint. If I can find that, I should be able to be very confident in the color.



Bruce Cunha

This is probably a TD in Sun Bronze. It looks very close to the Sun Bronze Y pictures I have. It also is close to the PPG 23662 I have a paint card of.

The computer does not give accurate color.


Bruce Cunha

I had a brief exchange with Bruce several days ago relaying information in Malcolm Greens T SERIES Restoration guide and others that reference Sun Brinze as being identical to the Y type color palate.

Bruce I think the Y type color is much more appealing with the red interior than that “copper bronze”. Then add MG Red grille slats and I believe you’ll have one heck of a nice combination when completed.

I have a friend who has Mg paint chips going back to the late thirties. Unfortunately they end in 1949/1950. I will see if he has a sun bronze chip. I don’t remember if he did. He didn’t have SSG, MG or Autumn Red. He has a restored MG Red MK II so I’ll see if he has the formula for it as well. It’ll be a few weeks before I will be able to talk with him.

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Maybe in Australia Rob, but the original red color hidden on my TF was certainly the Autumn Red variaty with a very bright red interior.
L E D LaVerne

LaVerne,

I would like to have compared your 'Autumn Red' with the current idea of the very much darker Autumn Red of today ! Colin Stafford terms his very original TF as Autumn Red,however it sure looks like MG Red to me !

Rod Bradshaw of New Zealand has restored thirty one(31) TFs. I feel he has mentioned before in this type of discussion that he has never come across
an original TF decked out in Autumn Red.

Many TFs over the years have been painted in the erroneous Ferrari type red colour, far brighter compared to the original.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719(" Aramis"), TF9177(" Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rod
I own TD/c -16920 which still sports original Autumn Red paint
on its firewall which ihad been covered over in flat black. I pulled the VIN plate to reveal a beautifully rich sample that I will be color matching in the future. However this is a back burner project until I get dad’s SSG TD/c-8151 painted and assembled. Hopefully to debut dad’s car this summer. Health permitting

LaVerne, sorry for going off topic. We now return to your regularly scheduled programming. The Almond Green Show!

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

I have original colour chips for MG Red, Autumn Red and Almond Green (non-metallic), but not Sun Bronze. I have seen a Y type in Sun Bronze and it was definitely not that bright Copper metallic colour but similar to the image that Bruce shows.
MG Red is a dark red and Autumn Red is very dark indeed, but like all red shades they look brighter in broad daylight than otherwise. I gave all the information that I had, including the pigment recipes, to Chris Couper. Unfortunately scans of the paint chips don’t look much like the actual paint chips in the hand.
Dave H
Dave Hill

This was the color I found beneath the under coating on my TF. I do not have any images ...should have take some I guess


L E D LaVerne

"I am also looking for a correct Autumn Red and MG Red which I have had little luck locating any usable info for."

Years ago, about 1986 I contacted Moss looking for the color formula on MG Red. They told me "Madder" red was very very close. (Its a GM color from the 70ies.) I had a quart mixed up and used it on all the wood.

I still have a bit left.
When I had the car painted about 4 years ago, using the new process, the painter gave me a bit for touch-ups. His can said "Madder" red.

Since the painters paint is flat and needs a clear coat I tried and have been using the 1986 can for touch-ups. Cant tell any difference.
I will go down to the painters next week and see if he has the formula on his can. I need to have him do work on a fender anyways.
JA Benjamin

Madder Red was a natural dye produced from the madder root. To make a pigment from it the madder red dye was made into a lake pigment. It contains purpurin and alizarin giving a deep violet red colour. This is actually not a bad description of MG or Emgee Red. I’ve looked at the original pigment recipe and it contains Crimson, Scarlet, White and Black. Back in the 1970s I worked in colouring plastics and am fairly confident that the Crimson and Scarlet are Lead or Cadmium based, with the white being Titanium Dioxide and Black being carbon black. I don’t think there is a lake pigment in there (they tend to fade anyway).
Dave H
Dave Hill

La Verne,
I sent a hinge with the original mgtf Almond Green from my car to Tri-City Paint (tcpglobal.com) and I thought they matched the color pretty well. If you contacted them and asked for a sample of MGTF Almond Green Metallic, they have the formula on file, I am sure they would not give out the formula ,but would probably make you a sample to see if it is close to the color on your TD.


J K Barter

I think it is really important to have the very fine metallic, as modern metallics are very different. TCP had the correct metallic particles.
J K Barter

Have you got a few more pictures of the car? The owner of this TD already purchased a Moss green interior kit....which is darker that the original and is in discussions with his mother and sister about a possible change in colors as he doesn't think the two will look good together. It appears that you also have a green interior with your TF. If you do would you please send them along with this one to...

dorydd0555 at aol dot com


Thanks
L E D LaVerne

In 1994 I owned a NAPA store and sold their Martin-Senour line of Sherwin-Williams auto paints. That's also when I was restoring Lazarus and returning him to his OEM Autumn Red. M-S had the formulas for most of the MG paints, including Autumn Red. The base coat Autumn Red was their color #20216. I still have the formula for Color Code RD6:

Paint Name Qty
9801 Black 62.1
9806 D.Orange 372.0
9835 Mix Drier 552.0
9816 T. Maroon 3656.0

The quantity figures were for creating a gallon and were the mixer scale readings, grams, I think. Bud

Bud Krueger

La Verne,
My computer with all of my photos has kicked the bucket so I am unable to access my MG photos. My interior is from Moss, but I bought it about15+ years ago so I don't know if their colors are still the same now-but the interior color looks great with the paint ( in my opinion) and the Moss green welting looks close enough to the color of the paint so I did not have to paint the welting.
I will see if I can find any images that show the interior and exterior together....
J K Barter

This shows a little glimpse of the interior and Moss green welting....


J K Barter

Thanks JK
L E D LaVerne

When I installed my walnut dash, I sprayed the dash plate with a can from Home Depot.
Rust-Oleum - Pure Gold.
Close, but when seen from the steering wheel to dash, you can see the deference.



M Grogan TD23816

DASH next to steering wheel.



M Grogan TD23816

another


M Grogan TD23816

Dash panel off the 50 TD


L E D LaVerne

bits from the hidden area of a steering wheel center cap that had never seen the sun


L E D LaVerne

No question the Moss paint was much lighter


L E D LaVerne

L E D LaVerne: The Moss facia paint is definitely too light for the TD. I may have forgotten at this point but I do believe the TF was lighter. :-)

I have Dave Hill's original formulas but I am not sure they would do anyone any good. I suspect all the base and pigments are totally different than they were originally.

WA Chasser: Maybe we can compare your SSG formula with the ICI one I have to see what lines up.
Christopher Couper

Another one that it would be good to come up with a consensus.
Bruce Cunha

This is the back of a TF panel Chris. Memory says it's the same shade as the TD. The steering wheel paint chips came off this TF.


L E D LaVerne

Chris, is your ICI formula a recent mix? I tried to use the paint codes you had listed on your website, “The Original MGTD” but none of the formulas came back as usable. I think a big problem is that any/ some European formulas do not crossover to US compatible materials. It’s a stupid situation but certain pigments simply aren’t available. I would be very interested in a follow up from you regarding a SSG ICI formula. I don’t know of a US Rep to contact. We have no ICI retailers in my region that i’m aware of. I will have to do more sleuthing and see who I can come up with

The remnants of SSG that remained on dad’s car (TD/c-8151) were quite thin and degraded. I had my own formula made up and it was a good match to what was represented on my car if in fact I wanted the tint to have a 67 year old patina. One of the formulations came to me via Bill Hite. The other formula and spray out card came from Bob Howard. I plan to have both formulas mixed as comparison samples. I would appreciate any one else’s input on an SSG formula.

With that said I want to return this back to LaVerne’s original request as this thread has been hijacked and gotten way off topic. Anyone with SSG information can contact me via PM and I will respond

Cheers

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

Don't forget this site :

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_finishes.htm#ColorSchemes

Jac
JS Jac

I also recall that the TD and TF dash panels were originally different colors- the TD being lighter and almost a touch toward pink, with the TF more toward gold? The available listed T-series formulas have been useless for many years as the pigments changed, were discontinued, or banned due to lead/cyanide and other nasty chemicals in them. Remember an original paint sample (or original paint chip book sample) may be totally different in hue from original due to fading, oxidation, and general aging. Even if the paint sample was stored in a dark, dehumidified nitrogen filled environment it may still have changed. BTW, JK's almond green TF is exactly the same color as a very early TD that was in town here many years ago. That car was repainted likely in the early 70s and the respray matched the original unpainted areas very well. George
George Butz

The original formulae contained Lead, Cadmium, and Chromium which have been banned owing to toxicity. In addition a number of the other pigments are now considered obsolescent because they have poor fastness or tinting properties. The is particularly true in the red shades, but less so elsewhere in the colour range.
It’s possible that there was some drift in the colour of the instrument panel of the TD and TF over the period of time they were in manufacture. The paint manufacturers will have kept reference standards, but colour matching was done by eye back then, and the guys that did it changed from time to time, plus it’s possible that sources of certain pigments may have changed. Nobody has ever found a reference number for any of the dash colours as far as I know, and we don’t even know the supplier. Most likely ICI, but nothing seems to match what is in the Color reference swatches.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Dave Hill points out why I never posted his formulas. Note these are formulas and not paint codes.

They do have some historical significance so I should probably get off my keister and post them. :-)

Here is a sample of the MG Red one.




Christopher Couper

Here are some of the issues with paint.

The system used for paint formulas in the UK is not the one used in the US. So, taking a UK formula into a US paint store will get you no where, they can't even look up the colors in the formula as the numbering system is different.

I tried this with the Sun Bronze formula that the International MG Y group had made through PPG UK. My shop could not help me at all even though they are a PPG dealer.

While the pigments are different, getting similar colors should still be possible with a good chip. This is done all the time with older cars.

As there are different paint color camera's on the market, it may be needed to get two different paint stores using two different cameras to scan the chip to see how close they come in the formula they come up with.

I plan to do this with the Sun Bronze. I will let you know how it goes.
Bruce Cunha

This thread was discussed between 13/01/2018 and 17/01/2018

MG TD TF 1500 index

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