MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Almond Green follow up

I exposed the orignial color on one of the doors this morning

L E D LaVerne

It is clearly lighter than the wings

L E D LaVerne

Makes me wonder if aging alone caused the differences or if they left the factory with this tutone?

L E D LaVerne

Both appear to be very fine metallic with the lighter color having a little pealescent to it.
L E D LaVerne

If they did start out the same color,maybe there was a pronounced color change in the enamel on the wings - that could be why with the TF they went with lacquer on both body and wings with green cars??
J K Barter

It was just the opposite of what I expected...the wings were sprayed with lacquer and the body tub was enamel. I left both panels today at the paint supplier and they will have a go
at matching both colors...even with scanning it is still a hand mix process and maybe by the end of the week he will have something for me. He tells me that TPC doesn't actually make or mix paint but is only a supply type business, so in the case of your paint I would need to know the brand and who actually mixed it and if they still had the formula. Still seems odd to me that paint suppliers wouldn't put the formula on the can as I am accustomed to so you could have an exact match if needed for repairs.
L E D LaVerne

TCP does mix the paint, matching old colors is one of the things they specialize in. They have a big color library with many old paint chips, too, that you can look at on line..
It is best to call them on the phone about custom mixing of colors-you can't do that directly from the web site, I don't think. They do have the color they mixed for me on file, as I called them recently and had some mixed for touch up work on y TF. I can't tell if either of your greens are the same as the TF color-but the body color does look closer in your images.
J K Barter

Thanks JK. Should the owner call them should he use your name to get a can of your mix ?
L E D LaVerne

One other question...I see their web site shows them based in San Diego...I'm wondering where they shipped the paint from? I'm headed to San Diego in a few weeks...maybe I could pick some up?
L E D LaVerne

This is the third two tone green TD I have seen pictures of. The lighter green seems to be iridescent while the darker is not in my other samples. Is this the same in this car?
Christopher Couper

Pretty much Chris... light pearl effect.
L E D LaVerne

La Verne,
I have not been there i but I think they mix the paint and shipped it from there in San Diego.
You should call them, they were helpful when I talked to them.

The lable on my can says AL-TCP54mgtf(C) 1954 MG AlmondGR

The" AL" I think stands for acrylic lacquer, which is what I got-you would have to specify what type of paint you want to use. You can use my name (James Barter) if it helps them find the color.
I don't think they can sell the lacquer for local use in California, but can ship it out of state. I wanted the lacquer because It is so forgiving for a backyard paint job, although it required many coats and lots of sanding.....

If you are going there and can bring a small piece of your car they could probably match it for you. I sent a hinge- the back side of which had little exposure to the sun, etc.
J K Barter

Thanks James. I know lacquer has been banned in California for at least 25 years...but the funny part is they still sell lacquer thinner for cleanup. Makes no sense. I don't see me packing the door out with us but I really appreciate the information. I see if it fits in with the group plan in San Diego.
L E D LaVerne

Each county in California can have different regulations on Acrylic Lacquer. I can't buy it at the local paint shop in El Dorado or Sacramento County (doubt very much you will be able to in any southern CA paint stores), but I can go about 30 miles to Jackson CA (Amador County) and have it made.
Bruce Cunha

Bruce is quite correct. The ban on lacquers and even urethanes are regulated at the regional levels within CA urban air districts. The Bay Area can only use waterbased automotive finishes now. But head to northern CA or the Sierras and there are no restrictions. Just donít get caught using a banned product in a restricted air district or you face huge fines, and worse.

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Called them and yes they are in San Diego... yes they will sell me lacquer IF... I'm not in the state of California...

Well I really don't want lacquer so they can mix up some acrylic urethane with a weeks notice. 85 bucks for a quart....another 20 bucks for the hardner... no reducers needed says he. I'll see if the owner wants to spring for a quart for me to test spray in case the local match doesn't work out.


If I get a local mix i'll give Chris the formula and paint brand.
L E D LaVerne

L E D LaVerne: Were both of your colors a light pearl effect or just the lighter shade?

How do they compare with these colors?



Christopher Couper

Pretty much just the lighter shade Chris. I don't really see it in the darker color. You think they left the factory that different? My thinner test tells me the wings were in Lacquer and the tub in enamel which is the opposite of what I would have expected.

L E D LaVerne

The differences are very similar to what you show in your photo.
L E D LaVerne

I'm relying on memory here, but I seem to recall reading that Almond Green carts had two types and tones of paint between the body and the fenders. One was metallic and the other not.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

Chris, the firewall looks correct but the wing looks like the paint has a contamination from the fender welt. I have a wing that is the same shade as the firewall in your image.

I have the formula in Glasurit but it is in the original 54 line COB base coat. It would need to be sprayed out and analysed in the 55 line or any other paint brand.
Rod Brayshaw

Rod,

URGENT
I noticed the Almond Green Metallic (HDE) is evident in the battery Box
in Chris. C's. photo. I have seen many TFs with the inside the Battery Box area painted black. In your opinion, originally were they painted black in this area of the bulkhead ? PS. I am about to have the TF1500 in this area painted mighty soon.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rob

Definitely Black, in the image the black paint has been cut off to expose the green underneath. The black was on top of the body colour.

The image is of a TF 1500 with a light white overspray over the original black, note the lower section of the triangular end where the black is over the original Ivory body colour.

Rod Brayshaw

Hi Rod B.,

Brilliant ! Thankyou for your prompt attention to the confirmation on the original black painted battery box complete with photos. Appreciated.

I am wondering whether you have commenced your thirty second (32nd) TF rebuild/restoration !? A magnificent car with timeless styling.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis") ,TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rod: I don't think it was contamination from the fender welting. I just used that picture because it was the best for showing the contrast. See this picture. (don't tell me it was contamination from the rubber pad :-)

I have another with the underside of the front splash too.

WRT the battery box color: TF's black for sure. Early TD's body color. Somewhere in 1952 they seemed to go to black. I posted some examples in another thread.



Christopher Couper

Chris
There seems to be a lot of variations to this Metallichrome, or Polychromatic green paint.

My opinion and research follows.

M.G. paint suppliers used Metalichrome Almond Green BALM DULUX #222 2007.

Sun Bronze, Silver Streak Grey were also Metallichrome
paints that only show one code number for each colour.

So if there were two types of paint used on Metalic TD TF then there is no reference to another code number in my Dulux or Glasso books.

All the straight colours are all listed as (Wings only) and have two paint codes, but the Metallichrome ( Green, Bronze, Grey) do not specify dual paint types.

They offer two paint types for touch ups only.

The wings would be often touched up as they would be subject to damage.

If the colour change is what you have shown it is no wonder the metalic cars were painted red, green etc as the difference would look horrible as different fading values occurred as time went by. Paint had Lead, ar*enic, chromate etc as part of the mix so the eventual fade out would never be consistant.

I would and never have mixed paint types on a restored vehicle.

I would expect that at the time of delivery any M.G. that left the factory would be closely matched. But different fade out would occur verry quickly therafter.

Rob, the current ivory TF1500 restoration is likely to be my last but I have 2 TD's and an Arnolt TD under way.



Rod Brayshaw

Here is the factory metallic paint on TF4828 which was unrestored when I examined it a few years back.

Matthew.

M Magilton

Rod: You could be correct about the fading based on pain type. It also appears the metal effect is less on the wings too.

BTW I suspect all the paints faded quickly. My father repainted our car after 24 months too and it was MG Red. He said it faded almost immediately in sunny So Calif.
Christopher Couper

Paint shop suggested that I buff down a fender panel and see what I get. I suspect it will be the same. He says that he is getting very close to a good match on the paint...thinks he can do even better after I told him that the primer was black and not the white that he was using for a base. I'm in the camp that the cras probably went out the door fairly close in color , but probably not an exact match....much like the flexible bumpers on todays cars many times don't match the metal body panels. After that I believe that the two types of paint...one lacquer and the other enamel faded at different rates. My suspecion ..... again that is all I have to go on....is that the paint was probably the darker of the two colors...which again I find a little surprising as it is the enamel and the darker is the lacquer.

When ever he has something for me, the plan is to spray it out on an old fender. If it turns out to be a good match , I will give you the brand and the formula.
L E D LaVerne

I looked at the pigment recipe for Almond Green (non metallic) and it looks extremely lightfast. The green component is Monastral Green, which is Phthalocyanine Green - one of the finest organic pigments developed and with exceptional properties. The other pigments are Titanium Dioxide, Carbon Black and Iron Oxide Yellow. A metallic version will have the Phthalo Green, reduced levels of black and white, plus aluminium flakes. Very lightfast but the base resin may yellow slightly.
A modern paint would probably use similar pigment types and a superb match is possible, but the metallic effect would be hard to reproduce exactly (todayís aluminium flakes are much brighter).
Dave H
Dave Hill

Rod,

As per usual, enjoyed your rationale re the paint type issues.

Only three(3) more MGs for re crafting ! Top stuff !

Cheers
Rob Grantham
Rob Grantham

Chris and others

ALL old Paints especially red faded.

I went to Munster Germany in 1988 to the Glasurit training centre to learn the two pack 21 line and 54 line metallic systems and although there was theory we also were hands on in the paint booths.

Once a tin of metallic paint is mixed up I can spray a light version and a dark version, all down to technique. Wait an hour and spray again and I will get two different shades again as the more solid heavy components in the paint settle to the bottom of the tin.

So what is original ex factory? well mixed paint in the morning or settled mixed paint in the afternoon, different people spraying the body to others spraying the wings. Even the pre-war MMM M.G.s had the paint and chassis number stamped on the bonnet hinge so they went back on the same vehicle.

Get the paint shade as close as you can to what is deemed close to original and if you like it, spray the car and don't stress any more.

Remember there are good and bad professional spray shops all over the world so you get what you get.

The same tin of paint or the same formulae used by different spray tradespeople in different shops to paint two metallic green T types could and possibly will in my opinion look different if parked together.

If you paint the doors and bonnet sides lying flat on trestles they could look different to the vertical panels on the body, we spray out doors and panels etc. in the vertical plain, just as they sit on the tub.

The painter who identified the base primer colour is spot on as the primer shade does have an effect.

Also the colour shade will be different the more coats of paint you apply.

Finally the technique used to lay the metallic particles facing up or laying down or points in between these extremes will dictate the final shade of green you get, and remember to keep stirring the paint.
Rod Brayshaw

Rod thank you for your comments. I agree that metallics are tricky to to lay down and all panels should be painted at the same time and position in a way that they would be on the car to get a uniform appearance. Certainly ambient temps, humidity and spray technique, color of the base primer all factor in as to how the metallic element lays down and how light or dark the finish will appear based on the number of coats or the flow rate of the gun. I have found that the metallic elements today in US formulas are not as fine as that used back in the ĎĎ50s.

Iím wondering if using a pearlescent element wouldnít help to mute the modern metallics? In developing the first formula for SSG, based on what was presented on my dadís original paint car, a pearl was used to get the effect on muting the flakes. It was quite comparable to the original paint. A problem did present itself due to the fact that the carís paint was well worn and the natural elements of light, weather and chemical interactions had taken its toll on the original finish. The patina in essence had changed the true original spray out. My mix took into account the 67 year old patina. I now have several formulas based on other SSG cars and one spray out thanks to the help of other SSG owners. Iím going to mix a sample of the other formula and compare it what little original finish I have left, the best being on the inside of the doors and inner door jambs. The goal is to recreate the irredescent greenish effect that was a characteristic of the original finish. Thanks to recently found color pics of dadís car ca.1951-53 I can use the images as well in deducing the tint. I donít mean to get off topic of the OP but I believe the Almond Green and for that matter Sun Bronze all share the same issue when it comes to the final effect achieved.

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

<<Iím wondering if using a pearlescent element wouldnít help to mute the modern metallics?>>

When I did the bronze center console I was concerned with the flake making it too glittery. The shop that I had mix the paint did something (additive?) to get "LESS FLOP" so the flakes stay more flat to keep the glitter to a minimum.

Frank
TF1414
Frank Cronin

Stopped by the paint shop today and he said he is getting closer. One sample has a white primer the other a gray which is just slightly darker.

L E D LaVerne

Outdoors in the shade

L E D LaVerne

Indoors with natural and flourencet lighting

L E D LaVerne

The fender in the same lighting

L E D LaVerne

Now here is the interesting part....He got the formula on line..it was a no metallic color but I think he has nailed the metallic. The interesting part you ask.... the formula was found under the same GN 37 listed on the Chris's TD web site with one cavat...its listed under Austin I didn't think to have him look up any other colors but I plan on doing so when I go back in....keep your fingers crossed.

L E D LaVerne

I'd say if you didn't want metallic, your work is done. We should have a usable formula for the metallic once he is finished.

L E D LaVerne

Bad news I'm afraid for some of the other colors. Even though they are listed in his program with the original part numbers, they do not show any formula...I asked about Silver Streak Gray, Bronze and Autumn Red. Still very surprised they had the Almond Green Formula.
L E D LaVerne

This is the Birch Grey formula I used when I resprayed the guards in 2008. It is a good match to the factory paint.


Matthew.

M Magilton

LaVerne.

Funny you should say it crossed to a Rover color. As one of the SSG Formulas I have is supposed to be Rover Silver it is a color I looked at when I was searching paint chips at Jerryís Paint here in Sacramento. I didnít have it made up as the sample I had on my door looked different. My problem was that any amount of buffing to cleanoff the patina resulted in pulling through to the black primer. There just wasnít any way to win at getting a good sample exposed for comparison. One of the formulas I received I believe is that Rover Silver. Iíll have to double check when I go back in for more mixing and spray cards

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

Both of those pigment recipes are very similar to the original ICI Belco paints, but with a twist.
The Birch Grey uses carbon black, titanium white, yellow oxide and phthalocyanine green (where the green replaces the original lake pigment blue and some of the yellow oxide). This will be more colourfast.
The Almond Green uses carbon black, titanium white, yellow oxide and phthalocyanine blue (where the blue and some of the yellow oxide replaces the original phthalocyanine green). This will be almost as colourfast as the original.
Even if an excellent match in daylight, there is a risk of a poorer match in artificial light owing to the slightly different pigments (metamerism). But this wonít bother most.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Great! looks like he is pretty much there, or will be.
J K Barter

This thread was discussed between 16/01/2018 and 24/01/2018

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.