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MG TD TF 1500 - Barn Find- German Made 1951 TD

Greetings Everyone,

Approximately two weeks ago there was a thread circulating on this forum regarding a possible rare German manufactured 1951 MG TD (car no. TD 8873 CH Only). I am happy to announce after spending two weeks of haggling with estate lawyers that I was finally able to acquired this car two days ago.

A little history: the car was owned by a Professor of International Business at East Carolina University in Greenville, NC. He owned and operated a foreign car repair shop and tinkered with cars while working as a professor and after retiring from teaching. This car, along with a few others have been sitting idle in his abandoned shop for the past fifteen plus years.

I stumbled onto this car because I was lost and stopped to ask for directions, something I rarely do being an alpha male. About this time last year, I purchased a 73 TR6 from another gentleman in Greenville who had done a partial frame-on restoration and I was trying to locate the upholstery shop where he had his seats reupholstered. I stopped at a near by auto body shop to ask for directions and told the owner I was restoring a TR6 and was looking for this particular business that was supposed to be near by.
Upon hearing that I was a British car enthusiast he grabbed me by the arm and took me to the business next-door. It was there he introduced me to the gentleman who owned an auto part recycling business. This gentleman proceeded to tell me that he was buying the property and building across the street to expand his business. He went on to say that the now abandoned building was an old foreign car restoration/repair shop and was full of old MG and Triumph parts. He then told me he needed to get the building cleaned out and asked me if I would be interested in taking a look at the parts and a few cars that still remained inside. Needless to say, we all know the answer to that question. Hell yes!!!

There were several old parts only worthy of acquiring as artifacts. As for the vehicles, there was a mid 80's Jag XJ6, a 1970 Mercury Cougar Convertible and a late 60's Porsche 912. All three of these cars were very rusty and beyond repair, trust me. I was just about to walk out of the building when I noticed the MG TD over in a dark corner and asked if it was for sale. The answer was yes but that it might be complicated given this was an estate sale with two lawyers who represented two brothers who were not on speaking terms. I rubbed the tarnish off the velicle I.D. plate and wrote down the car number which led to the thread two weeks ago.

Fast forward to Tuesday. I received a call from the lawyer of the brother who owned the car at 11:30 in the morning telling me if I wanted the car I needed to purchase it and pick it up that afternoon. Keep in mind I live 2.5 hours south of Greenville.

The car is now sitting in my garage and I am pondering what I should do with it. The body panels are in very very good condition with just minor surface rust, no dents or creases that i can see. It is missing several pieces and a couple of items like the gas tank and the tire rims are rusted beyond repair and will need to be replaced. The seats and interior will need a complete overhaul and some of the wood interior frame will need to be replaced. The wood floorboards are obviously shot. I have not tried to turn the engine yet. Instead I've pulled the plugs and sprayed some Marvel Mystery Oil into the cylinders. I am going to let that soak in for a couple of days before I try to turn the engine.

There are some very distinctive features regarding the fenders that convince me this is one of the German made TD's. First, the rear fenders have no seam running from the top of the arch to the bottom of the rear of the fender. Second, the front fenders appear to be a heavier gauge metal and appear to have been fabricated from three separate pieces. There are a few very distinctive lines (seams) in the same places on both fenders that would indicate the three pieces were welded together to form the fender. Also, the contour on the front of the fenders is much different than the contour of the MG TD fenders made from the Abingdon factory. And last, the louvers on the bonnet are definitely different than the ones on the Abingdon made cars.

This deal on the MG could not have come at a better time. The host of Chasing Classic Cars was in my home town of Wilmington, North Carolina yesterday filming the acquisition of a old 1950 Citroen for an upcoming episode from a good friend on mine. He was unfamiliar with the "Made in Germany" TD's but had a chance to examine the car and give me some guidance and recommendations.

At this point I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this piece and I'm open to suggestions and recommendations. Please enjoy the photograph as I try to learn more about the history of this vehicle. Stay tuned....

Regards,
Kevin



K Wiseman

Let me guess...Wayne said take it to the Mecum Auction...lol.

Very cool piece you have there Kevin.
L E D LaVerne

Kevin - if this is something you decide not to continue yourself, I would be very interested in acquiring it.

Best thanks

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Good luck with the restoration. I admire when someone takes on a major undertaking like this. Keep us posted on your project.


FYI there is a TD gas tank for sale on Ebay right now.

Frank Cronin

I am happy you were able to save it. Such a unique car!
Jack Long

Kev,

A coupla 'tings.

First, CH is Switzerland not Germany. better check this out. Secondly, many German T's were identified with a unique dealer badge, usually fixed to the front side panel. If this is still there, then that will undoubtedly increase the value of the car.

Thirdly, are the instruments in Metric? If so, then this is NOT one of the T's made for purchase by Yank servicemen posted to Lars and others European bases, immediately following WWII. The speedo in particular should read in KMs (please note it is correctly pronounced Kilo-metres and NOT Kill-awe meters)

Dealers of German T's made many modifications, especially for their own home market. I have a several pix of some of them, but obviously, you have stumbled across one of them, and I an curious to learn which "flavour" you have.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

Gordon,

I would suggest CH Only has nothing to do with either country. It says the car was produced without a body and if you bought it you could do what you liked with it, as in the days of coachbuilt vehicles produced by body manufacturers, eg Hoopers and Rollses. I can't see Hoopers building MGs however.

Ian

TF4056
Ian Fry

Kevin,
Just to get a feeling for how rare this is...
According to the "Original MG T Series" book by Clausager there were 157 LHD chassis' only produced (and only 9 RHD). Of the LHD units, 102 were Arnolt-MGs built by Bertone. That only leaves 55. The only book I have that discusses the German cars is the "T Series Restoration Guide" by Malcolm Green on pages 14-15. He states that in addition to Bertone, Zagato, Castagna, Vignale and Monviso built at least one and in Switzerland Reinholt & Christie, Ghia/Aigle, Langenthal and Worblaufen also built a few cars. In Germany Wendler built one roadster, one cabrio and 2 coupes. Schlomer built 3 roadsters and Weidenhausen built one. The ones that apparently tried to copy the MG design was Hennfarth of Stuttgart. The number remaining after those others above is only 42 or less. So what you have is extremely rare.

Thought you might want to know that info.

Its great that you saved this one. Who knows what would have happened to it otherwise.

This is really an exciting find!
...Bill Goldberg
Bill G

Kevin,
Just to get a feeling for how rare this is...
According to the "Original MG T Series" book by Clausager there were 157 LHD chassis' only produced (and only 9 RHD). Of the LHD units, 102 were Arnolt-MGs built by Bertone. That only leaves 55. The only book I have that discusses the German cars is the "T Series Restoration Guide" by Malcolm Green on pages 14-15. He states that in addition to Bertone, Zagato, Castagna, Vignale and Monviso built at least one and in Switzerland Reinholt & Christie, Ghia/Aigle, Langenthal and Worblaufen also built a few cars. In Germany Wendler built one roadtser, one cabrio and 2 coupes. Schlomer built 3 roadsters and Weidenhausen built one. The ones that apparently tried to copy the MG design was Hennfarth of Stuttgart. The number remaining after those others above is only 42 or less. So what you have is extremely rare.

Thought you might want to know that info.

Its great that you saved this one. Who knows what would have happened to it otherwise.

This is really an exciting find!
...Bill Goldberg
Bill G

Bill

From my research Bertone built the first two Cars one Convertible and one Coupe for a motor show from wrecked MG TD chassis.

I am not sure if 102 were produced for Arnolt or 100? we think it's 100.

It's not going to make much difference to you total.
Rod Brayshaw

According to the production records, 8873 is one of five sequential EXL cars built on July 6, 11 and 12, 1951 (8871-5) as "Chassis only" (nothing to do with Switzerland).

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Rod,
Per Clausager, 102 included the first 2 for the Turin car show. So that sounds like 100 Chassis Only went to Bertone if the first 2 were from other sources.

Sorry my post above was repeated twice. I think I hit the back button after posting and that reposted again. ooops.

...Bill
Bill G

For what its worth, this pic and the next one are bodies built on a chassis. The caption on this one reads: Inskip Motors displayed this custom-built Type TD midget four-seater tourer at the New York International Motor Show in 1953.

I don't know if it was built on one of the "CH" chassis or by sacrificing a perfectly good existing whole car (a sad thought if ever there was one).

Jud

J K Chapin

And this one with the caption: Italian-built grand tourisimo bodies graced TD Midget chassis as offered by the S. H. Arnolt Company in Chicago. The license tag indicates that this was also in 1953. My book says that "several dozen Arnolt MGs were produced."

Jud

J K Chapin

I actually like the look and lines of the custom four seater. Difficult to tell by the black and white picture if it is chrome or it could painted but the extension and swooping line from the chrome side strip on the bonnet across the scuttle on door is a nice touch.
Frank Cronin

Gents,

Thank you very much for your interest and input so far. It is VERY MUCH appreciated. Since acquiring the car I have had very little time to devote to it. All of your research has been a huge help.

As for my intention, I definitely want others to see it in it's current condition. I was thinking it would be best to attempt to get it drivable so it could be trailered to some regional events for display. Unfortunately, I am in the middle of a frame off restoration on a TR6 and any major work on the MG will have to wait until that project is completed.

Below is a link to several photos I took the other day. The first two photos are of my "pit crew" and the build from where it was stored since 1996. These three gentleman were cleaning out the building when I arrived to pick up the car and helped me get it loaded on the trailer. Please take a look and provide any commentary. Also, please do not hesitate to contact me if your travels take you near Wilmington, NC. I would be happy to let you take a first hand look.

Thanks again,
Kevin


http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/khwilm/library/1951%20MG%20TD%20German%20Made?sort=2&page=1#/user/khwilm/library/1951%20MG%20TD%20German%20Made?sort=2&page=1&_suid=1383496999974030410056471216073
K Wiseman

Try this, copy/paste it into your browser. It's replacing the %20 with a space Bud:

http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/khwilm/library/1951 MG TD German Made?sort=2&page=1#/user/khwilm/library/1951 MG TD German Made?sort=2&page=1&_suid=1383496999974030410056471216073
Bud Krueger

Try this, replacing the %20 with a space Bud:

http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/khwilm/library/1951 MG TD German Made?sort=2&page=1#/user/khwilm/library/1951 MG TD German Made?sort=2&page=1&_suid=1383496999974030410056471216073
Bud Krueger

Kevin: If you would like me to create an unrestored page at: http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_gallery.htm

for your car let me know via email above.
Chris Couper

Kevin,
Thanks for uploading the many photos; they provide a lot of information. I think we can conclude that your car is a one of !! If you compare these photos with the two other known Zeppelin Garage TD's, there are numerous different details. So it seems that even in this small production of German TD's, none was exactly identical.
Still I wonder if they were really made by Hennefarth (Malcolm Green has the spelling wrong). As far as I know Hennefarth built only one special bodied TD. This car still survives, was up for sale on e-bay a few years ago and is apparently being restored right now by a German enthusiast. I've included a photo below.
Maybe one of our German readers knows more ?

(The subject of the special bodied MG TD is fascinating and deserves a book on its own IMHO...)
Just my 2 eurocents.

Nick (TD3232)

Nick Herwegh

Frank, B&W in the book is all I have but it does look like the strip is chrome.
Jud
J K Chapin

Frank, you might enjoy;
http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/i/inskip/inskip.htm

Way down toward the end is another view of the 4-door TD and the following:
Inskip opened additional sales office in Providence, Rhode Island and West Palm Beach, Florida during the 1950s. He also marketed a 4-place MG TD during the 1950s that featured a lengthened wheelbase.

Jud
J K Chapin

Thanks, for your feedback Nick. I have added a few additional photos to my original album. Hopefully they will provide some insight as to how the front fenders were fabricated. Upon further investigation it appears they were fabricated from four separate pieces and not three as previously reported.

Additionally, if you recall, I mentioned that I sprayed some Marvel oil in the cylinders four days ago. A friend and I were able to turn the engine today by rolling the car in gear with spark plugs removed.

Next on list will be to replace the tires and clean the carbs in an attempt to bring it back to life.

Kevin

K Wiseman

Thanks for sharing the great read Jud. Comparing the two I just noticed the slotted wheels on the TD in the webpage link and the fancy hubcaps that has the illusion of wire spokes (to my eyes anyway) in the picture you posted in this thread.

Frank
Frank Cronin

Spotted this on the site of www.conceptcarz.com searching Zeppelin cars. The caption also includes 3 pics.

Jasper

---

Coachwork: Zeppelin

One of 25 MG-TDs bodied by the Zeppelin Garage in Stuttgart, Germany, and only six are known to remain.

The bare chassis was shipped to Cologne and driven to Stuttgart with a box of chrome parts used as a seat. A BMW motorcycle gas tank provided the fuel supply.

Nearly all were sold to GIs (U.S. 1st Division) and returned to the U.S. with their soldiers. This car was purchased by the current owner and campaigned heavily in SCCA events in the early and mid 1960s.

This car was restored in 1989 and currently registers over 300,000 miles / 490,000 km - nearly 5 times around the odometer.

The car is powered by a water-cooled 1,250 cc, 4-cylinder engine, developing 54 horsepower, coupled to a 4-speed manual transmission.
JL Nederhoed TD#3966

Jud,
4 DOOR TD ???????
STEVE WINCZE

Nick, below is a link to more information regarding the MG-TD you are referring to. It was one of the feature cars at the Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance in 2006. I have been unsuccessful in my attempts thus far to make contact the owner.

http://www.mogsouth.com/documents/MOGSouth%20New%20Letter%202_06%20Final.pdf

or google- Amelia Island Concours d’Elegance
March 9-11, 2006 -it should come up as a pdf.

Kevin
K Wiseman

There's a whole bunch of interesting body parts on the German TD,,, Glove box, door latch, bonnet latches AND what looks like a bonnet lift handle?
SPW
STEVE WINCZE

Steve:


Oops!! Make that 4-seat TD.

Jud
J K Chapin

Farah Faucet and Lee Majors had one of the Inskip TDs. It was for sale at Hershey a few years ago. Because of the rarity of the car, the fact that it was owned by Farah Faucet and Lee Majors, and the fact that it was at Hershey, we referred to it as the six million dollar TD. I may be wrong, but my recollection was that the Inskip TDs were standard production TDs that were cut, then modified by Inskip in New York.
-David
D. Sander

Kevin- can you please email me? Dasander at aol dot com.
Thanks!
-David
D. Sander

Kevin,
Find enclosed a photo of a Zeppelin Garage TD in Dutch ownership since 1990.
The car appeared in a Dutch magazine in 1998. In this article the owner mentioned he corresponded with Bob Wilson about the German built cars. In other words: if you trace the Dutchman, you might be able to find Mr Wilson (owner of the red Zeppelin TD).
It might be worthwhile to contact the MG T-type Owners Club Holland (Jasper ???)
Cheers,

Nick (TD3232)

Nick Herwegh

Nick,

I'll give it a try...

Jasper
JL Nederhoed TD#3966

Thanks for the photo Nick. The first thing that strikes me is the rear fender. The one in your photo has the "seam" running from the top of the fender to the bottom. the fender on mine is flat with not seam. the shape of the glove box door is also different on the photo you sent.

Kevin

K Wiseman

One of these German built cars is located in the Chicago area and is owned by a Scotsman, He had been a judge at the Meadowbrook Concours for many years. I will have to search into my archives for his name.

He told me that in the 50's there was a severe shortage of sheet metal for car body's and a number of rolling chassis were sent to Germany for reproduction body panels. I may be wrong, but I believe he told me that they were made by the precursor of Karman Ghia company.

I have seen his car and it is different from the original TD, that you can notice it.

Very cool to find one of this rare cars.

Look for my update on the owner.

colin stafford

Colin, I believe the gentleman you are referring to is Bob "Kermit" Wilson. I have not been successful in reaching him. Any contact information for him would be appreciated.

Kevin
K Wiseman

Well spotted Kevin ! The "seam" is ten inches shorter than the one on the Abingdon fender though. Probably because the body is around two inches wider at the seat backrest. This one is TD9240EXL and is a bit younger than yours.

Nick (TD3232)
Nick Herwegh

Is this the Mr Wilson we're talking about ???

Bob (Kermit) Wilson
Proprietor at The Queen's Toybox
Greater Chicago Area (from LinkedIn)

The Queen's Toybox

5826 Queens Cove
Lisle, IL 60532
Phone: (630) 852-2002
Robert W Wilson
Owner (from Manta.com)
Nick Herwegh

Colin:

It appears that the Ghia mentioned by the Sctotsman may not be the same as the Ghia of Karman Ghia - see:
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/variants/vt103k.htm

I'm also wondering about the specs given for the Ghia version:

1952 MG TD Ghia-Aigle Cabriolet Specs

Engine Specifications: Inline-4
Displacement: 1275 cc / 77.8 cu in
Power: 47.0 kw / 63 bhp
Specific output: 49.41 bhp per litre
Chassis & body
Body/Frame: RWD
Speed performance
Car top speed: 120 kph / 74.6 mph
Source: http://www.carsession.com/car-specs/1952-mg-td-ghia_aigle-cabriolet.html

Was there a 1275 cc XPAG? It's also interesting that increasing the hp to 63 reduced the rated top speed from 84 +/- mph to 74.6 mph. Perhaps a much heavier body but one might think that improved aerodynamics (assuming it was improved) would make up for the increased weight.

Anyway, I do seem to recall that Abington looked to Turin for the design of the MGA so maybe there is a K-Ghia connection.

Jud
J K Chapin

Nick,

Guess what? I've spotted him on the member list of MGTTO!

As far as I know he is not active on this BBS, so I've send him a PM.

<to be continued>

Jasper

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

BINGO !!!
Thanks Jasper !!!
Nick Herwegh

Jasper/Nick, I was just able to obtain Mr Wilson’s cell phone number. I just sent him a text message and asked him to contact me at his convenience. Hopefully he will give me a call. My intent is to obtain some more history on his car and ask him to join this thread with his commentary. Since I do not know Mr Wilson, I did not want to broadcast his contact information on this thread out of respect for his privacy. I will keep you posted.

Again thanks for all of your interest and assistance.
Kevin
K Wiseman

Jud. Great find the Ghia variant. I note the two cars were built on Mk II chassis if the car numbers are correct.
Chris Couper

Here's a picture of a Wendler TD

Willem van der Veer

And an Everest TF
Willem van der Veer

Wendler TD

Does that grill look vaguely familiar?
J K Chapin

Willem,
Though it very much resembles a Wendler TD, the car apparently is a Hennefarth TD. Originally it had another windscreen and an upright radiator but was later "modernised" with an MGA nose !?
It created a lot of discussion a few years ago when it came up for sale twice on e-bay Germany. It is mentioned in a book on German coachwork (unfortunately I don't know title nor writer).
As I mentioned earlier, the car is being restored now.

Nick, (TD3232)
Nick Herwegh

fuel pumpr>
I finally spoke with Kermit Wilson late this afternoon. He was very gracious and knowledgable regarding the history of the German made TD's. Below is an article he drafted several years ago. According to Kermit, six of these German made TD's have been accounted for. This new found TD 8873 now make seven.

Kevin

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Abingdon on the Rhine Stuttgart on the Thames?

by Bob Wilson

It
K Wiseman

Very interesting!

Could someone out there draw up a list of the 7 known Zeppelin TD's, including chassis numbers, location and maybe the current owner?

Jasper

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

What a great read. I never imagined when I began restoration that it would just be taking off parts, cleaning them, rebuilding, re-furbished, re-plated, new paint, and then assembly. There's so much history -- world history to take into account on these cars. It's all like an archeological dig and more can be found below the faded paint and loose rust. The more you search and and go into deeper layers, something new comes up.

The German influence and MG connection I have interest in since #1414 was a GI purchased car from a MG agent in Frankfurt Christian Odendahl. The blue dealer badge is on the side bonnet.

I am willing to bet as these German body made TD get more exposure, additional information on the history on these unique cars will be revealed. I'm a history "nut" but not an expert but for a history perspective I think it is fair to say is that Germany whose infrastructure was in shambles after the war partnered with Great Britian, a former WWII foe, to help rebuild their economy and the Germans determined to go to market targeting the much needed American dollars via GI's stationed there in the American zones. To gain additional much needed currency to counter steel supply shortages, the Germans used there engineering brilliance to hand build these coach built cars to meet the GI demand and create much needed jobs.

I am just rambling and thinking out loud but I bet there are more TD's and TF's purchased via the GI conduit from MG German dealers imported back to the states than previously thought. If and when #8 gets found I bet it is in some barn somewhere in the US just like how Kevin discovered it.

Great write up Kevin and good luck with German TD found #7.

Frank
Frank Cronin

Absolutely brilliant !!!
Thanks for sharing the story Kevin.
It's clear you've found one of the missing parts of the giant MG-history jig-saw puzzle.

Nick (TD3232)
Nick Herwegh

Frank, as a fellow history buff you might injoy this site:

http://www.mg-td.com/

I just registered.

Jud

J K Chapin

Guess what I found this morning, Bob Wilson's card which he gave me some years ago in Lisle, IL. The Magic Toy Box. At that time he was into Morgans.
Bob, we miss you as a judge, kilt and all.

Our TF 6688 came from Christian Odendahl, the post war dealer for MG in the American Zone. He was also a race driver for a private funded MG race car prior to WW 2.

colin stafford

With Kevin's support I have added a gallery page for his car here:

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/Pictures/TD8873/mgtd_gallery_td8873.htm

I have also updated the variants page with the information provided in this thread

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_variants.htm

And made a few changes to the European dealter page.

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_european.htm

As new information come available I will update the related pages. Please email me any editions you wish to have posted because I don't always see every entry of the forum.
Chris Couper

Nick,

In the meantime I was able to contact the owner of the Dutch Zeppelin MG. He emailed me a few pics of the restoration. I'll ask him for permission to publish them on this BBS.

Jasper

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

As promised.

pic 1

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

pic 2

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

pic 3

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

pic 4

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

pic 5

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

pic 6

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

pic 7

Since nothing of the Abington TD's fits the Zeppelins all new parts had to me made by hand. The owner faces still the challenge of a new top...

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

pic 8



JL Nederhoed TD#3966

pic 9

The current owner bought TD9240 in 1990. In the car he found the name and address of a previous owner living in Tampa, Florida. He got in contact with him and received a.o. this picture, showing the car with his granddaughter.

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

Kevin: I would love to see your car. I'll be retiring and moving to Wilmington in the Masonboro area in January. My TD is already there.

Bob
Bob McLeod TD 5618

Bob, That would be great. I live between Masonboro Loop and Masonboro Sound Road. Please give me a ring when you get down here. Kevin
K Wiseman



Jasper,

Thank you very much for tracking down the owner and asking - and - getting permission to share the photos with so many of us - and - including another pic of the p p o's granddaughter in the car!

I like looking at the car and it is fun to be able to do so. Good work!

Jerry

Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

Both Jasper and Nick are becoming great resources of information from the land of the midnight sun.
Chris Couper

I've been reading the comments regarding the barn find German MG TD with considerable interest. I also own one of the Zeppelin Garages MG TDs. The car number is 8872. I've owned the car since 1974; it came from San Diego, California. It is the "anglecized" German TD referenced in Bob Wilson's article in the New England MG "T" Register Sacred Octagon publication. The rear fenders of my car do not have the center rib, nor were tail lights installed on the rear fenders. Tail lights on my car were free standing units attached to the rear apron. Other than that difference from Kevin'car, my TD has all of the unique German TD differences described in the previous posted comments: flat gas tank end panels with clip-on polished alloy edging, twist on gas cap, German made interior door latches, hood louvers all the same length, polished alloy windshield frame and stantions, straight steel door hinges, ribless firewall, etc. Several years ago I received a copy of correspondence to Bob Wilson from a gentleman who owned the remains of German MG TD 8874. I believe he lived in either North or South Carolina. After all these years since I first acquired my German TD, it's exciting to see more of these German built TDs being discovered.
TLT Tanberg

Chris,

That's too much honor for our beloved country...but I forgive you!

Jasper

---
ex Wikipedia:

The Land of the Midnight Sun may refer to any of the world's northern regions above the Arctic Circle including:

Canada, including the Yukon, Northwest Territories, and Nunavut
Greenland
Finland
Iceland
Lapland
Norway
Russia
Sweden
United States (Alaska)
JL Nederhoed TD#3966

TLT,

Could you please post a picture?

Jasper
JL Nederhoed TD#3966

From this thread I've derived the following list:

TD8872 - TLT Tanberg, Florida
TD8873 - Kevin Wiseman, North Carolina
TD8874 - remains of a Zeppelin TD, North or South Carolina
TD9238 - Bob Wilson, Chicago
TD9240 - Jan van der Weij, Netherlands
?????? - license plate DD-81-55, Netherlands

All are Zeppelin TD's.

Please help to expand this list!

Jasper
JL Nederhoed TD#3966

Jasper,

Thanks to all people involved here, this thread has become an impressive piece of research. Within a few days a partly complete list of Zeppelin chassis numbers and their owners could be compiled !
Not sure about the DD-81-55 though; looks more customized than Zeppelin to me. On the other hand, I may be blinded by too much "Midnight Sun"....;^)

Nick (TD3232)
Nick Herwegh

Nick,

Maybe you're right. I'm chasing DD-81-55 too so probably we'll know in a couple of days.

Jasper

JL Nederhoed TD#3966

According to the production records and just going by the known serial numbers so far, TD8871, 72, 73, 74 and 75, and TD9237, 38, 39 40 and 41 were all supplied "Chassis only." One might assume that at least these were all sent to the same place for the same purpose. My guess is that these are all German TDs .

Although there is n way to see where or to whom they went, other groups of "Chassis only" cars were made earlier, in June, 1951: TD8553, 54 and 55 [all other runs are 5 cars]; in June and July: TD8758, 59, 60, 61 and 62; and TD8871, 72, 73, 74 and 75. Shortly thereafter in July, 1951: TD9050, 51, 52, 53 and 54, TD9237, 38, 39, 40 and 41; TD9395, 96, 97, 98 and 99, 9580, 81,82, 83, 84 and 85; TD9769, 70, 71, 72 and 73 were made in August, TD9928, 29, 30, 31 and 32 in Aug. and Sept., 1951, and TD10058, 59, 60, 61 and 62 in Sept. I havn't looked at everything, but there is at least a long pause here on chassis production.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

TD9240 and a badge of the German flag. Nice detail!

JL Nederhoed TD#3966


Attached is a picture of German TD 8872 the day it arrived in Florida after a drive across country from San Diego, California, 1974.

TLT Tanberg


Another Picture of German TD 8872 in 1976. Note the frear fenders with no center rib and the type and location of the tail lights.

TLT Tanberg


German TD 8872 as it is configured today.

TLT Tanberg

TLT, is this one of those "Can you spot the 10 differences?" games? Fuel takn is attached with flat metal straps instead of tubular steel; fuel filler in the left side when it got to Fla now it's on the right side (just personal preference?); are those lake pipes or running boards? and of course the wings have given way to motorcycle fenders.Probably lots of others.

Jud
J K Chapin

Tank looks bigger and is a different shape to 1976. Rear of car looks "TF-ish" at a quick glance.

Ian
TF4056
Ian Fry

Rear fenders replaced with ribbed type and fender mounted tail lamps.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

TLT, thanks for sharing!
JL Nederhoed TD#3966

From a Dutch expert (Wiard Krook) on prewar MG's I've learned that the Dutch TD licensed DD-81-55 by no means represents a so-called Zeppelin TD.

I'm feeling sorry for feeding this BBS with wrong information.

Wiard is convinced that TD9240 is the only Zeppelin TD in The Netherlands.

So we have to remove this one from the list...

TD8872 - TLT Tanberg, Florida
TD8873 - Kevin Wiseman, North Carolina
TD8874 - remains of a Zeppelin TD, North or South Carolina
TD9238 - Bob Wilson, Chicago
TD9240 - Jan van der Weij, Netherlands

Jasper
JL Nederhoed TD#3966


You all are very observant. When I acquired the car it had a standard production TD fuel tank installed, but the original German tank came with the car. The German tank had the fuel filler on the left, just like the standard TD tank. It had a twist on filler cap that looked much like a 1930s Ford Model fuel filler cap. I replaced the original fuel filler cap with an MG K3 quick release cap (slipped right over the original fuel filler neck). It looked so good, I added another on the right hand side, again reminiscient of an MG K3.

The car has a period accessory split exhaust manifold (Outer two ports into one and inner two ports into one. The manifold connecting the inner ports lays over the manifold connecting the outer ports. Those two manifolds are connected to a 2 into 1 header that connects to the side exhaust.

The cycle wings on the front are also a period accessory and the reason I replaced the original rear fenders with standard production TD units. The cycle wings have the center rib and I wanted the rear fenders to have the rib along with the tail light mountings. Here I must confess that I was building the car to go vintage racing, but that dream never came to fruition. However I liked the look so well that I have kept it as I configured it (however, I did remove the roll bar). Not to worry, the German fenders are stored away in the attic and can be bolted back on the car in short order.

Unfortunately, I was not able to salvage the original spare tire carrier. It was not the tubular type typically found on TDs. It looked very similar to those found on Pre-War MG J2s and K3s: two vertical outside straps joined with two straps forming an "X" between them. A tubular section with a flat triangular plate was welded to the center of the "X" straps. Three threaded studs to mount the spare wheel were pressed on to the flat triangular plate. It was really a very flimsy arrangement and may not have been original to the car. Since I installed wire wheels on the car (original wheels were the standard TD steel wheels), I am using an MG TC spare tire carrier. Thank you for your interest guys.
TLT Tanberg

Great looking car

Ian Fry
TF4056
Ian Fry

Thanks for sharing the story TLT, and what a stunning car it is !!!

Nick (TD3232)
Nick Herwegh

I have a 1954 mgtf. It is a LHD with the regular MG factory id plate on the driver's side, as was normal. However on the other side (right) there is a German id plate. It has the same vin number, but numbers in the line above are XXXXXX's. On top line is simply "MG". The plate is in German. I am attempting to contact the elderly gentleman who had the car for about 30 years before me. I purchased it from his family. Does anybody know why the 2 plates? Thanks, George H. NW Florida USA

P.S.: The speedometer is in MPH not Kilometers.
GH Higginson

GH. Can you use the Upload link at the bottom of this page to provide us a picture of your German ID plate?

If you can't do that send it to me via email and I will post it for you.
Chris Couper

Thanks to Chris's help I can now upload a photo of the German VIN tag on the right side of the tub on my 1954 MGTF. The factory British MG VIN tag is in its normal location on the driver's side of the tub. Any help is appreciated. George Higginson

GH Higginson

In my last post I posted a photo of the German VIN plate on my 1954 MGTF. Has anyone had a change to look at it and knows about it. Thanks, George
PS Here is a repost of the photo.

GH Higginson

George - I have checked the factory production records, and there is no additional information available on your TF. The TF notes are more sparse than the TD notes (if that is possible)!

There is no "chassis-only" or other indication, just the numbers. Sorry.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Our home model MG TC found its way to Germany early on in its life. It too has a German ID plate on the bulkhead. I will post a picture of it when I can find the time to either find one or take one.
-David
D. Sander

Hallo GH,

here is what the German VIN-plate on your car says:
Fahrzeugtyp -> Type of Car
Fahrgestell No -> VIN or Chassis Number (stamped to the LHS dump iron on the TD)
Baujahr -> Year Of Production
Zul. Achsdruck vorne kg -> max. allowed load on front axle (values given in KGs)
Zul. Achsdruck hinten kg -> max. allowed load on rear axle in KGs.

These type of VIN-plate is normally fitted to all vehicles registrated in germany and must be fitted on the RHS front of the inner wing or close to that position.

I have added a picture of an other VIN-plate of a german built MG TD/C special built in Germany in 1950/1951.
May be it is of some sort o interest...


Ralph
TD 19435

R.S. Ralph Siebenhaar

And here is a picture of the car itself

Ralph

R.S. Ralph Siebenhaar

Ralph - is that your car? It's pretty cool! Might it be for sale?

Best thanks,

Tom Lange
t lange

No, Tom,

it belongs to a member of the German BBS.
It is a TD/C and I have some other pics of it but it is in a very bad condition and it will take some time to have it on the road again.
It seems that this car was one of the LHD cars or rolling chassis versions directly sold in Germany and delivered via J.A. Woodhouse in Cologne.

My Td is a usual TD/2 but I will do some improvements soon for better handling and more power and a changed rear drive ratio.

Ralph

R.S. Ralph Siebenhaar

It really hurts to see such a 'gem" just sitting out there!!!!!!!

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

Ralph - would you be able to put me in contact with the owner? I have a particular weakness for TD/C cars...

Many thanks. Tom
t lange

Here is a pic of the German I'D plate on our 1947 MG TC

D. Sander

Another shot

D. Sander

Hello Everyone,

I am just starting to get my hands dirty on TD8873. I removed and cleaned up the carbs last night. The car did not come with an ignition key and I was hoping someone could assist me with obtaining a new one. The ignition switch has NRN 50 engraved on it.

Is anyone aware of how/where I can get a key made? I would be very happy to pay someone with the same ignition to have a spare key made and sent to me unless anyone has another idea or resource.

Thanks,
Kevin
K Wiseman

Contact Pete Groh
Pete's web site is at: http://britishcarkeys.com/ Bud
Bud Krueger

I think it is MRN 50. Most were either MRN 50 or MRN 48. These are the key cuts.
-David
D. Sander

Kevin, My '51 TD is about two miles from your house in Wilmington. I'll be down there in about three weeks. I'll look at my ignition. If it is the same you are welcome to duplicate my key.
Bob McLeod TD 5618

http://www.triple-c.com/MG_Replacement_Car_Keys.cfm

George Butz

Kevin,

Would you please email your email address to

jasper.nederhoed@xs4all.nl ?

The owner of the (one and only) German TD in The Netherlands would like to contact you offline but doesn't know how to contact you. I suppose because he wants to exchange mutual experiences.

Thanks in advance.

Jasper

JL Nederhoed

Well, the holiday season is over and I have finally found some time to spend on this TD. After cleaning the carbs, which did not take much cleaning and installing a new set of points and consuming half a can of starting fluid, I am happy to say that TD 8873 is officially alive.

Regards,
Kevin

K Wiseman

Hooray, Kevin!

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

Kevin,

Well done. Congrats and good luck with all the remaining work that's facing you... But this is a very good start!

Jasper
JL Nederhoed

Well, it took awhile but I finally located the article written by Bob Wilson which is quoted above by Kevin and published in the Sacred Octagon. It is in the February 1993 issue. Lots of photographs.
I knew I had seen it somewhere and it was driving me nuts not to find it.
Now I only need to remember where I left the DVD for rebuilding SU carbs ....

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

There is a German TF in Michigan. Collin Stafford & I were there with the club for the fire fireup in 30 odd years and later when it finally hit the road for the first test drive. It was finally licensed & insured and made one of the club meetings. We expect to see it often this season.

Now that I think about it, Collin's German MG is a also, if I'm not mistaken.
JRN JIM

This thread was discussed between 31/10/2013 and 28/03/2014

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