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MG TD TF 1500 - Chassisnumber on a MG TA
I want to renew the number on my MG TA-chassis that I am using to built a Q type replica.
Does anybody have a picture of the chassisnumber on a TA as from the factory.
Erik van Hardeveld
|The original chassis number, on the right part of the chassis, is the only thing which defines that this is THE car. If it is missing and needs to be replicated, then the vehicle around which it is built is not linked to a legitimate car history.|
There are now many examples of disputed vehicles, where several cars exist, one built around the the original chassis, one around the original body and another around the original engine and drive train (much modified). All claiming to be the original car. In the UK the owner of the 'genuine' car is the person who has the current log book and the historic trail to that original car. I think htis has been tested in law.
In the Bugatti world, any significant part of an original Bugatti can be built up to a replica and claim to be a real 'Bugatti'. That is what big money does to the market.
So, in the MG market and most others, if you haven't got the original number stamped dumb iron, you don't have the car you claim.
Hope this helps with deciding how to progress.
|I was very interested in an original Lotus 7 on eBay a few years ago, with original engine, seats, instruments, diff, etc. That was until I learned that it had been re-chassied in the 70's and the original chassis left behind the shop. A few years later someone else stopped by and bought the chassis, built a car around it, and now HE has the 'original' Lotus 7, registered with the Lotus Club. Doesn't seem fair, somehow!|
Bar Harbor, Maine
You could be setting yourself up for legal problems down the road.
I say this as one that was on "the buying end" of such a transaction years ago. (TF1500 "NOT")
Although I did not innicate the proceedings, and it never went to court, I was fully prepared to defend my right to back out of the contract to purchase I had entered. In my case the seller had been dupped by the PO's "faulty documentation". I was able to convince him that this was the case. If the seller ever went after the PO I am unsure. He gave me every indacation those were his intensions.
I would proceed very cafefully.
I note your comments regarding "the legal owner" is the eprson holding the registration document/log book. I have just received a new red V5 and on it is printed "This document is not proof of ownership"
mick 52 TD
|Erik, aside from all the other answers you received, I do not have a photo of the original chassis number on a TA. I could help with a TD, but it may not be what you are seeking. |
Try going over to the T Series TA,TB,TC forum and ask. You can "jump" over to that forum from the window at the top right of this page.
As you say, the V5 is not proof that you own the car, but it is recognised in the UK as confirming that this is the car on the V5. However the law says that the continuity of the log book is what determines that the car is the only one which can be described correctly as correctly bearing the specific chassis number and registration number. In other countries proving the originality of the marked dumb iron is the strongest demonstration that the car is linked to the exact vehicle which came out of the factory.
There are people, even in the MG world, who have a number of stamped dumb irons 'in a cupboard' waiting to be welded onto new chassis and a car assembled on to it. This is then 'the' car, not a replica but THE car. Then recover the V5 and that is all it takes.
For the post war MGs there is not enough money in the final car for this to happen (yet), but there are pre-war MG specials and main-stream vehicles which are derived from this approach. Some are described as replica's, some are not. So ensuring the provenance of the car from factory to your cheque book can be essential with the expensive rarer models.
Thank you for your reactions sofar.
Ian, Tom and David: I did not steal a car or a chassis, I have legally proof from the DVLA, that I imported TA 2936 from he UK to the Netherlands
So thank you for all your advise, but I am just looking for a picture of the number on an TA chassis
as the old number is not clearly visable anymore, and
I want to know if "TA" should come in front of 2936.
This especially is not visable anymore.
Mick: Thank you, I suppose exportpapers of the DVLA
are proof of ownership.
Tom: Thank you, I have a TD myself and I already placed the same thread in TA-TB-TC.
No reactions sofar.
So still looking for a picture of a original factory
chassisnummber of a MG TA
I do hope you did not take my comment the wrong way.
Only given as an example of events per my very limited experance. Intended as a caution on going on the "word of others". The seller of the TF1500 I mentioned had threated me with legal action that could have been costly. "What" he had was a 1250 that a PO had redone documentation, an engine swap & ID tags. On inspection I learned the truth. (BMHT cert info did not "match up"...with actual records.) The seller was shocked when I showed him the BMHT cert. I got on the car. Someone had indeed pulled a fast one on him.
In no way did I mean to insuate you had stolen a car or were attempting anything not on "the up & up".
No problem, thanks
|Erik, here is a picture of the stamped chassis number on my TA (L/H front iron)|
|Mike Hart ( TD/TA)|
|Erik, first I want to make it clear that I was not in any way suggesting that what you wanted to do was dishonest.|
I wanted, first to point out that if the chassis marking was missing from the correct place, then it should be a warning that the car may not be quite correct, and there might be another car 'out there' claiming to be the same car. The 'original' is worth far more than the copy.
The second point was to make it clear just how important the original chassis marking is, and should not be tampered with in any way. I would strongly recommend NOT stamping over the original to reinforce it. This will certainly give rise, in the future, to questions over the correctness of the marking when the double striking can be seen. I have a friend with an AC Cobra where part of the chassis mark is unclear and has been restruck. There is now great debate (with a lot of money at risk, and being spent to show the marks) over determiining what the correct original number was.
There are forensic methods for determining the original mark, either by careful polishing with fine sandpaper and then photographing in a range of light positions. Or by using Fry's Reagent as a non-destructive etch, and again photographing the result.
Hopefully these points help with your caring for your chassis
This is what I was looking for!
One question: I can clearley read the numbers but I can't see if there also "TA" above or before it.
In Mike Sherell's book "TC forever" (page 78)there is "TC" ABOVE the numbers. On my TD it is BEFORE the numbers.
What I am looking for, is how it is with the TA: Above, before or no "TA" at all.
|I'm afraid that I too was a victim of a similar situation. As many of you may know, I recently found a 1934 PA, locked in a garage since 1986, and within walking distance of Abingdon Spares.|
The engine block was covered with hardened pitch so I couldn't confirm the engine number which was supposed to be AP1175.
Once I got the engine out and cleaned, I found to my horror that the engine is a factory replacement and in much worse condition than I could have hoped.
The result is that the car is worth quite a bit less than what I paid for it.
|Gordon A Clark|
|That's a shame Gordon. Are you making any progress? How's the leg doing? May swing by this summer and have a look. Getting the Green Hornet ready for another 10000 miles.|
|Erik - I also add that I in no way was casting any aspersions, but was trying to suggest the prolems with chassis numbers.|
Of course, it can also work the other way. A rough, barn-find TD with a non-matching engine according to the ID plate on the bulkhead turned out to be a matching-number Mark II TD/C car according to the frame stamping, to which someone had attached another car's ID plate. The seller wrote me the bill of sale with the correct frame number so it is registered as that now, with a reproduction ID plate from Doug Pelton.
I'll try to photograph my TA later today.
Bar Harbor, Maine
One word : Karma!
You must have done "something very right" in a previous life time. LOL
Unfortantly I think there are more examples of it "going the other way" in the world we live in today.
|Erik, the TA is above the numbers about 1 inch. The T is about 1/4 higher than the A. The letters are hard to see due the beautiful patina on the frame.|
Ok guys, and Mike especially thank you for your trouble.
|Correct me if I am wrong...|
When the TA came out, it was classified as the T-Type. The classification TA came later, with the introduction of the TB. So, it would be logical to assume that since the TA was only referenced to as such with the introduction of the TB, that the chassis stamping on the TA was number only, with no letter prefix or suffix. Right?
I may be wrong... I often am...
You are right.
That's what I've always onderstood too.
I've been looking this up in older books and publications, and before the introduction of the TB (summer 1939) it is always the "T-series MG" when referring to what we now know as the TA.
In "Motor" sept. 1939 it suddenly is the TB "in place of the TA".
"The Autocar" (june 1940), summons up the midgets "M, J2, P, PB, T and now TB" and in the article "the first of the Ts - strictly the type TA"
It is strange though, that the TA of Mike (see above)
clearly has "TA" above the number in the chassis, which is confirmed in the book "MG companion"(1960)
page 64: TA: chassis prefix TA.
By the way: This book also gives a chassis prefix "PA" for the P (not PA!) and "PB" for the PB
It looks like they knew that there were more P's and T's to come, when they started the series......
|D'oh! I really should have read the post two above mine, and looked at the picture that shows TA above the number. |
I wonder if all TAs have the A stamped in the chassis, or if some only have the T?
The book "MG companion"(1960)says all TA's have the chassis prefix "TA".
This thread was discussed between 10/02/2012 and 13/02/2012
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