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MG TD TF 1500 - CKD Information Sought

I'm interested in learning more about CKD T-series cars - Complete, Knocked Down. So much of this information is anecdotal, that I would like to know what can be proven, and what only surmised. Cars were ordered as CKD because it was possible to avoid onerous taxes on complete vehicles by sending them as virtual kits, to be assembled in remote outposts like Australia and Holland. (What other destinations can be documented?)

I have quickly gone through the Production Records, and find that 8 TA's, 84 TC's, 422 TD's and 75 TF's left the factory as CKD cars (I know this number differs from other given).
I have studied the Molenaar films that show Morris Minor cars shipped as CKD vehicles being assembled (search on Youtube for "Molinaar Morris Minor"), and see that the entire vehicles came disassembled: all interior and exterior body panels came as individual pieces, requiring much welding, fitting and assembly. Bare chassis were supplied, and literally EVERYTHING had to be attached to them. I can only assume that T-series cars came a bit more assembled than these Morris Minors, but how much?

I have seen two photographs of crated T-series cars suggested to be CKD vehicles, but looking awfully shiny, assembled with complete tub and all body parts attached, but apparently lacking windscreen and tires. To my way of thinking, a vehicle in that form would hardly qualify for any tax advantage, so I do not believe those images are of CKD vehicles. They may well be vehicles dispatched to far-off places like Australia, requiring extra care, perhaps to fit into a ship's hold designed for crates rather than cars. (I have also seen the Pathe films of complete cars in slings being loaded onto ships to America.)

The Production Records show one interesting thing: while TA cars listed as CKD had engine numbers supplied when dispatched, not a single TC, TD or TF CKD car has an engine number given in the record. I believe this makes clear that those cars were shipped without engines (to avoid taxes), and that batches of engines were kept separate. Only when the cars were finally destination-assembled would an engine be selected from the supplies, inserted into a chassis, and the engine number stamped onto the Guarantee plate. One way to prove this would be to examine Guarantee plates for CKD vehicles, and study whether the engine-number stampings appear factory or not - the difference should be obvious.

I would welcome all comments on CKD cars, and to try to learn all that can be learned, separating the wheat from the chaff.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

CKD was the go in Ireland I believe, taxes were the reason. I believe Ts went to Australia complete, most MGBs were CKD down under from my understanding.

You would be surprised what you can get away with, company I was with shipped an aircraft tug with no wheels/seats to India as parts for said model of tug.

The next ship had the wheels/seat and a few other parts that had been removed as parts for said model of tug.

Taxes were a lot lower on parts, even though India did not have an industry producing tugs to protect.
P G Gilvarry

I think one of the goals of CKD was to employ local labor, a tax break facilitated that. I recall visiting Liberty Motors outside Manila in the early 70s and they were assembling Leyland trucks, Land Rovers and other BL products in their facility.
Recently I have read that the Chinese made MGs are now being sent to the UK CKD for assembly. Some things come full circle!
John Quilter (TD8986)

This is an interesting topic which needs a lot more research (and documents).
Australia:
We took many pre war MG's as body-less imports to save a large tax on complete cars. The effect of this was to support local body shops such as Holden (later General Motors Holden after the war).
I have not come across any post war CKD T types to Australia however we did have a requirement for Australian tyres to be fitted and in one of the Pathe films you can see RHD TD's on car transporters with black wheels. I suspect these were slave wheels which were swapped out on arrival in Australia for those fitted with Australian tyres?

Darryl Lamb of Ireland who often posts here has an Irish CKD TF.

There are also the German bodied TD's.

I am not sure why a few cars were crated, maybe to travel inland in some country like southern Africa? This would have added a large expense.

Matthew.


M Magilton

I don't believe that any TD/TF's were imported into Australia in a CKD condition ( I could stand to be correected). However this was not the case for MGA and some MGB's for the MGA I think were crated minus the wheels and maybe the engine and the upholstery then reassembled and painted at the Press Metal Corporation in Cosgrove Road,Enfield in Sydney.The assembly plant was later transferred to BMC at Zetland . I don't know as to when this occurred.
The Press Metal Corporation was formed after the war where a substantial amount of the holding was held by the local Austin Agent Larke Hoskins.
The importation of cars into Australia in CKD condition resulted in a lower import duty, well allowing some Australian content (assembly) to be added to the vehicle and in theory keeping the price down.
John...Sydney
J Walton

The Australian owner of TD1253 claims the car was shipped to Australia in CKD condition. However The T Register database list an engine number for the car. The CKD cars I've seen on the T Register database do not have engine numbers. Here's what the owner of TD1253 says about the car. "Current color Ivory/red1950... shipped from England to AUS in a knocked down condition (CKD) and sent to the Pressed Metal Corporation, Cosgrove Road, Enfield. NSW for final assembly.
1950 – 1973... History unknown.
1973 – 1993...Stored in a garage in a dilapidated state of repair.
1993 – 2013...Stored in a different location in a completely disassembled state
2013 – 2016... Completely restored and awaiting registration. Current engine 22357." I don't have the name of the owner of the car.

Tim
TD12524
Tim Burchfield

Tim, if the owner can show any paperwork for this then we would love to see it. P&R Williams were the importers for NSW for all the T types and their cars were delivered complete off the ships.
I did a quick search of "Pressed Metal Corporation" in the Australian newspaper archive on the Trove website and the company does not get any mention at all until 1956 and they did not start assembling MGA's until Oct 1957.

Matthew.
M Magilton

Thank you for chiming in, Matthew - this is EXACTLY the sort of information that helps separate anecdote from more concrete information.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Matthew, Tom. The lack of mention of a company isn't proof that a company didn't exist. Here is info from Wikipedia, "Pressed Metal Corporation (PMC) was established in the late 1930s as a joint venture between Larke Hoskins, the Austin agents for New South Wales,..."

Tim
TD12524
Tim Burchfield

Hi Tim,
I think the record you have for car TD1253 needs amending for I think you are referring to my car.
Could you therefore please amend your information as follows.

TD1523.
Original engine number XPAG/TD/1285
Build date 3 May 1950
Notes TD1523 EXRU
Current colour Ivory/Red

Current engine number 22357 which I believe came from car number TD21917 with a build date of 12 November 1952 for the Nth.American market.

1950-1973 history unknown.
1973-1993 stored in a garage in a dilapidated state of repair.
1993-2013 stored in a different location in a completely disassembled state.
2013-2016 Completely restored and awaiting registration.
March 20 2016 registered in New South Wales as a historical vehicle.

When I received the car there was no way I could tell as to the original body colour however the upholstery was a dark green.

I visited the Pressed Metal Corporation as well as BMC at Zetland many times during the coarse of my position with Atlantic Oil then becoming Esso Oil as an Industrial lubrication engineer.
A friend of mine served his apprenticeship as a mechanic at the BMC Zetland plant. I will have a talk with him to see what he remembers all being known he started working at BMC in the early 1960's.

Appreciate it Tim if you could amend my details in line with the above information.

Regards,
John ..Sydney
J Walton

John, the information for TD1523 is already entered correctly showing you as the owner. The information for TD1253 came from a database compiled by someone else. I've changed the information for TD1253. thanks for the corrections. I'll send you a copy of the database for your perusal.

Regards

Tim
TD12524
Tim Burchfield

Tom, Dick Knudson may have some insight, or steer you in to the right path. Have you asked him?
D. Sander

Tom, I have TC 7801 (1949)as well as my 2 TD's. During some talk on this forum last year, Matthew said, if I recall correctly, that 5 TC's were shipped to Australia in 1949 with serial numbers surrounding mine. I think he also said that sometimes they were shipped in batches of 6 cars. If that is the case, mine would be in the middle and the missing car. Do your production records show this and if so was it a CKD car? I am really curious. Thanks, Mark
Mark Strang

Mark - TC7801 does not show up as a CKD car. I have these as the only 84 CKD TC cars:
TC1752-87
4523-26
4583-4614
9005-8
9171-4
10/107-10

I am impressed at the knowledge that locals have of the histories of their cars, and am sure that Matthew has very sound information on his figures and destinations - sadly, I have no destination information at all.

One indication that a car was a CDK car is that the Guarantee plate will be stamped with the engine number in a very different and larger font that the chassis number. The chassis number would have been assigned and stamped on the Guarantee plate at the UK factory, but the engine would have been shipped separately, and randomly mated with a car as part of the construction in whatever remote corner of the world. The "local" punches are demonstrably different from factory punches. Many thanks to Robin Barker for confirming that fact with many images of CKD and non-CKD Guarantee plates.

Hope this helps.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Tim, my bad, it was only a quick search. Seems the company was also known as Pressed Steel Corporation according to the papers before 1956 which is why I missed it.

Mark, yes there are several Aussie TC's surrounding yours. Shipping batches to Australia were of various sizes though.

Did Darryl Lamb post a picture of his plate?

Matthew.
M Magilton

Matt. Pressed Steel was part of BMC. My father worked for both at Cowley, Oxford during his working life nd it was all considered part of continuous service. The name Pressed Steel continued over here well after 1956, and up to the end of BL I should think.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Dave, when did the name change to Pressed Metal? Or were they somehow interchangeable?
M Magilton

It appears that the Pressed Metal Corporation of Australia had in the early days no connection with Pressed Steel in UK.

The following is an extract from Wikipedia.

The Pressed Metal Corporation (PMC) was established in the late 1930s as a joint venture between Larke Hoskins, the Austin agents for New South Wales, and affiliated company Larke, Neave & Carter, the Chrysler distributor in that state. It was created to build motor bodies, at a 22-acre site in the Sydney suburb of Enfield.PMC subsequently assembled various Austin cars and commercial vehicles, however, following the creation of BMC Australia in 1954, much of the assembly of Austin vehicles was taken over by Austin Distributors in Melbourne.

John...Sydney
J Walton

For the record, my TD was built in Durban, South Africa by a company called Motor Assemblies. It has a normal engine number. The Abingdon body type/number plate was left blank. Instead it has an extra Motor Assemblies plate giving the number TD 51.
Tim
TD1580
Tim Wilkinson

Good info Tim. So there were at least 51 CKD or bodyless TD's sent to SA? Do you know in what form it arrived?

Matthew.
M Magilton

Matthew
There were quite a few more. According to figures produced by George Dehlen in Sourh Africa, there were 345 CKD imports of TDs there in 1950/51, plus two assembled cars (and 146 to the then Rhodesia). See http://users.iafrica.com/g/gd/gdehlen/mgt.htm.
I don't know in what form exactly the CKD kits were shipped, but local content could have included at least paint, glass, tyres, batteries and interior trim. Tom Lange concludes that the engines were shipped separately and I agree.
My car was originally a pale blue green colour (maybe Almond Green) with dark green (Apple Green?) interior trim which I don't think was an Abingdon combination.
You can find more information on Motor Assemblies on the web.
Tim
TD1580
Tim Wilkinson

Hi Tom

Only just seeing this post for the first time.

Yes Matthew is right our 54 TF is one of only 7 cars delivered to Ireland in kit form to avoid taxes.
This was very prevelent in Ireland at the time with other makes Jaguars etc being put together at other locations.

Our TF was assembled by a company called Booth Brothers in Island bridge in Dublin. There is a seperate Badge beside the MG badge on the firewall to this affect. I am assuming the number 187 on the badge relates to the total number of cars they assembled in a period and not the number of TFS of which I believe there were only 7 in total.

Below are some notes I made at the time about CKD cars:

RESEARCH:
Production 6200 TF 1250s & 3400 TF 1500s

My Registration No. ZU9424
Car No. HDH55/2913
HD = stands for MG 2 seater
H55 = ?

MG not built in Abingdon, it was made from a CKD kit (completely knocked down) and assembled by Booth Brothers Dublin.
Hence differences on the identity plate on CKD cars
Apparently Booth Brothers received TFs in Primer with the VI plate stamped HDH55
H=MG
D=2 seater sports
H=Primer (colour)
5=CKD RHD
5=Primer (paint type)

What does the term CKD mean?CKD - "completely knocked down". A term used to describe cars that were exported in kit form to be assembled "in country". This was sometimes used to claim that the cars were manufactured locally to get by import tax situations. Cars were finished in primer only. To get an idea how CKD cars were utilized check out this web site about the http://www.technispec.com/bmc/

+ Engine No. XPAG/TF/3274I
XPAG/TF/ = 1250cc (XPEG/TF/ = 1500cc)
32741 =

The engine number was stamped into the VIN plate by Booth Brothers (not Abingdon)

MORE INFO

Contacted the T register and Barrie Jones. This is a database of all the T series they know of and their owners and locations. He is having some problems including ours in the database as it is 1 of 5/7 Booth Bros cars and doesn't appear to have a chassis number stamped on the usual place. This may however appear in the logbook

Website is www.tregister.org

Barrie Email is barrietf@btinternet.com

Previous Email correspondence with Barrie

Name: Darryl Lamb
MGCC Member #:
Address: 34 Kew Park Avenue Lucan Co Dublin Ireland
Tel: 00353879609506
Fax:

The Details they have entered are:

T Register #:
Licence #: ZU 9424
Engine #: XPAG/TF/32741
Colour: Burgandy
Bodywork:
Country Kept: Ireland

Message: OWNED BY OUR FAMILY FOR OVER 50 YEARS. CURRENTLY UNDER RESTORATION, PLAN IS TO HAVE IT COMPLETED BY SUMMER 2015. THIS CAR WAS ASSEMBLED BY BOOTH BROTHERS AND CONSEQUENTLY THE CHASSIS NUMBER IS DIFFERENT TO OTHER TFs.

Hi Darryl
I really need the chassis number in order to identify this TF.
Since it was a CKD kit built by Booth Bros I can only narrow it down to one of a batch of 5 cars. The chassis number should be stamped into the chassis just behind the front bumper. See example in attached photo.
Regards
Barrie Jones
TF Registrar

Hi Barrie
Good to hear from you I was only checking our emails from 4 years ago and finding your explanation of the body code and Booth Bros very interesting. So thanks for that.
Had a good look but no sign for the chassis number. Will check the log book to see if it's mentioned. Attach a pic of the same position on my car.
Will be in touch after the we.
Thanks Darryl

Darryl
Unfortunately, the MG factory sent 5 TF chassis and 5 engines to Booth Bros and there is no record of which engine they fitted to which chassis.
In the event of a light front-end crash, the front dumb iron can collapse.
It is easy to replace, but the chassis number is lost forever.
Regards
Barrie

Hi Barrie
I noticed that the engine is a 1500 and not a 1250 as the car would suggest. The engine is also painted gold which leads me to believe it is one of the Gold Seal replacement engines that were often put into 1250s. (Not sure why this was the case) I had some documentation on file which I may have got from your website some time ago about this. However this engine is no longer restorable and I am currently looking for a replacement engine (if you happen to know of any or have advive). Will have a better search for that chassis number when I get home next week.
Thanks Barrie you are a mind of information

MORE OF THE SAME

Original correspondence with Barrie Jones of the T register and Matthew McGlinton from Australia

Email addresses:
Barrie Jones barrietf@talktalk.net
Matthew McGlinton mbmagilton@msn.com

Hi Barrie I live in Dublin and own a MG TF which I am currently restoring, I am trying to understand my car number against the T register explanation and I have numbers on mine that are not explained in the description. My car number (I think although it is difficult to make out) is HDH55/2913 - colour H is not explained, first number 5 is not explained and second number 5 relates to primer ???
The engine number is XPAG/TF/32741
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks Darryl

Hi Darryl
The code HDH55 is definitely correct:
H = MG
D = Sports 2-seater
H = Primer (colour)
5 = CKD RHD
5 = Primer (finish)
CKD = Completely Knocked Down.
This was originally a kit of parts, produced on 28th January 1954.
Regards,
Barrie Jones

Thanks Barrie for this information
I do have a second badge on the car saying “Asssembled by Booth Brothers Ltd Car No 187”
So the car must have gone in parts from Abingdon to Booth Brothers for assembly – with your knowledge would this have been unusual?
Regards Darryl

Hi Darryl
I have never heard of Booth Brothers Ltd, but if they assembled 187 cars they were quite big
and the Ltd points me towards an ex-UK colony.
Australia imported a lot of RHD TFs including CKD cars.
I am therefore copying this to Matthew Magilton in Australia.
Matthew, have you ever heard of them?
Regards,
Barrie

Thanks Barrie – this is an original Irish car – so I guess Booth Brothers may be Irish – I will google and ask my parents, dad may know as he bought the car 45 years ago, i will let you know what I find out – Thanks for getting back to me

Gday Darryl and Barrie,
I have not heard of any CKD TF's coming to Australia, our CKD imports were later models. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Ireland were one of the main CKD importers. South Africa is another possibility, I seem to recall that they had CKD MGA's.
Darryl, if you wanted to take close up photos of the I.D. plate and the Booth plate, I would be keen to see these posted on the gallery of the Original TF website where I am a contributor. Also if you have any questions regarding originality details, I am happy to help. My TF is mostly unrestored. Can you tell what was the first colour your car was painted? Photo of me last Sunday having "a quiet little drive".
Cheers,
Matthew.

Hi Matthew
Thanks for getting back to me, I believe (according to my farther) Booth were an MG dealer here in Dublin, so they must have received it in parts, built the car and then painted it as it appears it was delivered in a primer. Seams a very odd way to go about things!
Attached is a picture of the car 45 years ago after its first restoration by my parents (before they were married), Dad later gave the car to my Mum as a wedding using wedding cars sevenoaks present which explains why we still have it!!
Now in the middle of its second restoration with the intention of being finished for their wedding anniversary next year.
According to the logbook the original colour of the car was maroon as in the photo.
Also attach a copy of the plates.
Thanks for the offer of advice, I will hold you too it!
Good to see you really enjoy your car, I also believe they are meant to be driven.
Regards Darryl

Gday Darryl,
Befor the war there was a heavy duty to be paid on complete cars entering Australia, therefore a lot of the Pre war MG's came to Australia without bodies to advoid the duty. Maybe there was a similar economic reason for CKD cars entering Ireland? It would certainly have created local jobs. My Father owned my TF before me too.
Any chance of a photo which shows the numbers on the plates a little clearer? Maybe under a desk light? Both in the same photo would be fine.
Happy to send you any detail photos of the TF. I am currently giving her a tidy up for our annual MGCC concours. What stage are you at with the restoration? Is black the original interiour colour do you think? The maroon looks very similar to what is often called Autumn Red. I think your Dad was very wise to give the car to your Mother, many T types have been sold after marriage. I have added more photos of some of the trips I have done in the car.
Cheers,
Matthew.

I believe the reason for CKD was to save the import duty on a fully built car,
because the value of the kit was much lower.
ps - Did your father buy the car when new in 1954?
Regards,
Barrie


This everything I have when I looked into the whole CKD and our car.
Hope it's of some help.

Regards Darryl


Darryl Lamb

Excellent info Darryl.

Matthew.
M Magilton

This thread was discussed between 09/06/2017 and 17/06/2017

MG TD TF 1500 index

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