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MG TD TF 1500 - Crane Cam
Some time ago I rebuilt a 54 TF and whilst the engine was in excellent condition having not run since 1967, the body work was a disaster. Following a re-bore and crank regrind I fitted a Crane Cam bought from Brown & Gammons. This cam was a 340-0002.
Following the completion of the rebuild I was impressed with the TF performance and attributed the improvement to the Crane Cam No. 340-0002. Also fitted was the shortened pushrods 905-0003.
Since having sold the TF I am interested in building a replacement unit for my 51 TD and have a Wolsley block and crank plus con rods which I would transplant if and when necessary.
I have looked at buying a Crane cam here in the UK but it seems more advantageous to buy in the US considering the GBP/USD exchange rate (sorry guys).
My problem is that I cannot find cam data to compare the 340-0002 with the standard TD cam.
So any practical advice would be greatly appreciated.
|David T. -- The Crane cam 340-0002 is their stock replacement for a TD engine. Valve setting, intake .018 Exhaust .020 Hot.|
Lift Intake at cam .238, exhaust same, at valve .357 for a rocker ratio of 1.5 to 1
Cam timing at .050" intake opens 15 atdc , closes 25 abdc
exhaust opens 25bbdc, closes 15 btdc
Oversized lobes are to reduce wear. If stock pushrods are too long use crane pushrods P/N #905-0003
This is a fine cam. Have used it since engine was rebuilt 10 years ago.
Can I help with any more info?
|R. K. (Bob) Jeffers|
|David T -- Stamped on the cam itself 340-9986 93E2A.|
|R. K. (Bob) Jeffers|
|David - You will find the information here:|
Cheers - Dave
|Ok - That link soesn't seem to work, try this one: http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Sport-Compact&Cylinders=4&PHPSESSID=6bf2523689c686979aaa751c90b9d7da|
|Thanks everyone for your advice and comments. What I am really after is the information to compare the Crane Cam with the standard cam. Brown & Gammons advertised their cam ( made by Crane) as an improved profile cam. |
I was under the impression that this implied not only were the lobes on a larger base circle but also the that the valve opening and closing times had been optimised for better performance. Maybe this is not the case. But without the data for the original cam I cannot make a comparison- or maybe the data for the new cam is the same as the original!
If this is so why should I buy a Crane cam when an original spec cam is available for half the cost, the only benefit being less wear with the larger base circle!
The cam in my 51 TD is now 55years old, I will have to live till I am 120 something to break even on cost!!
Not sure I understand your last comment. The Crane cam that you praise in your opening statement (340-0002) should be the same one you can buy now. It's advertised by Crane as:
"REPLACEMENT FOR FACTORY 168553 CAMSHAFT. (THIS CAMSHAFT FEATURES OVERSIZE 553-OS LOBES TO REDUCE WEAR. STOCK PUSHRODS MAY BE TOO LONG, REQUIRING THE USE OF OUR 905-0003 PUSHRODS) BASIC RPM 1000-4500"
Crane does sell another one for the XPAG engine, 340-0010 advertised as:
"GOOD IDLE, DAILY USAGE AND OFF ROAD, PERFORMANCE AND FUEL EFFICIENCY, ALSO MILD SUPERCHARGED, 2600-3200 CRUISE RPM, 9.0 TO 10.75 COMPRESSION RATIO ADVISED. BASIC RPM 1800-5200"
Searching the internet for speed shops here in the States (not going with Moss or Abingdon) you can find the 340-0002 cam for $169 and the 340-0010 for $319 - how much can you buy a 'stock' cam for over in England?
|David, here's a copy of the Spec. sheet that came with my Crane cam. I had to install the short pushrods to compensate for having had .100" machined off the head thickness.|
|Thanks again Guys, |
Bud, I still have the same card for the cam I installed in the TF. What I have failed to get so far is the spec for the standard cam originally fitted to the TF. Although cams are advertised as a direct replacement for the original it does not necessarily follow that the cam timing is the same- or does it?
Gene, I know I praised the 340-0002 but the point I was making was if the only benefit of the larger base circle was less wear then maybe I should buy the standard cam at half the price of the Crane as the original has lasted 55 yrs.
Stock replacement cam from Brown & Gammons UK is £88.12 for part no. 168-551
Fast road camshaft is an eye watering £417.36 that is $826.
Moss advertise Crane std grind no. 451-260 for $329.95
Shadetree Motors Crane 340-0002 same price as Moss less 15%
Can you give me the contact info for the speed shop where you have seen the 340-0002 cam for $169, this seems a good price.
Here's the link to the $169/319 prices: http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/cranecams-mg.html
and here's a link to some slightly higher prices: http://performance.drivewire.com/enginecomponents/mgtfcamshaft.html
Hopefully they'll ship them to you...if not, and you decide to go this way, maybe someone here (myself included) would work with you.
|I just wanted to say that I also have the 'standard' Crane cam in my TF (1500). I'm very happy with the performance and overall tractability of the engine. The idle is very smooth. I considered the 'sport' cam, but after talking to my friend that has built several T-Series engines, I decided to not go that route. You sacrifice some smoothness in idling and low end torque for more power at higher RPMs. Maybe a worthwhile trade off if you are going to race the car, but the way I am using the car, I'd rather have the comfort or a smooth idle.|
|David, I've copied the Workshop Manual specifications and the Crane 340-0002 specs onto a webpage so that you can see them: http://www.ttalk.info/Camshafts.htm The Crane numbers are close to the 'early' stock values. The lift at the valves appears to be .357" vs. .315" among other things. Hope this helps, but it may just throw more irons in the fire.|
|I have the 340-0010 Crane Cam in my supercharged TD. It has an 8.5 to 1 compression ratio and many other modification. The cam is fine in my application, good low end and revs good to 5,000 or more rpm. If you use this higher lift cam, you will have to relieve the block to clear the valves. The valves on the MG engine extend beyond the cylinder. The valves will hit the top of the block unless you relieve the block to clear the valves.|
|Thanks again guys for the information, I feel I am getting somewhere. I am particularely grateful to Bud for the comparison table and to Mark and Karl for their input. |
Gene,I have put out an enquiry to inportperformance parts for the Cam and await their reply. Next question is can I get a set of pistons and Cam followers also? Could not find any of these on the links provided but I am sure you guys know someone who can!
The current Crane cams feature wider lobes and are designed to work with theeir own specially-ground cam followers. Ther are ground with a convex surface to promote rotation of the cam follower, supposedly to distribute wear.
From what little I know, you should really purchase a full set of Crane cam-followers (from Moss or better, the LBC), to obtain maximal results.
Sorry I don't have the part nbr, but if you want to check the archives, there's been pleanty of correspondence on on this cam and is technical specs.
(temp. in FL)
|Thanks to everyone for their assistance and it looks like everything is coming together. Following an enquiry to Flatlander US I got re-directed to Flatlander UK which I did not know about and they offered me a very good price for the Crane cam, and I have asked for prices on other items.|
|Just a word , the Crane cam followers are currently unavailable and on indeffinet back order. My rebuilder has offered to rebuild my originals and am cosidering letting him do so as he is aware of crane's cam follower specifications. No price yet though.|
Do you have a spec on how the cam follower rebuild is to take place? Presumably they will need a metal spray to build up the outside diameter and maybe heat-treatment prior to being ground back to the required diameter. Finally grinding the cam contact faces. I am told that the cam contact faces are ground with a concave end surface(or was it convex) to enable the cam follower to rotate whilst in operation thereby avoiding the wear taking place in one position.
It would be interesting to learn of the cost if you are able to tell us.
|The previous comments in this thread are of interest to me because I am in the process of installing a Crane 340-0010 cam in my TD. My XPAG has 2.5mm taken off the head to give it approx 8.9 CR (maybe it has a bit less because it has the TF big valves).|
My new cam is to replace a bad cam that was installed by a "professional" engine rebuilder in 1998_ a 5-45-45-5 cam bearing no numbers and with soft lobes which made it impossible to set valve clearances for any longer than a few miles.
I bought the Crane Cam from Moss quite reasonably I thought and they said that the 0010 was the one to get and that it would fit without any problem of valve/block clearance. This latter advice is contrary to Karl Frank's above. Can anyone confirm which is correct?.
|Not sure about head/block clearance, but I know of spring coil bind issues with new Crane cams here, evidently due to a little higher lift. George|
Try this company. They not only rebuild the camshaft but reprofile the followers. They also will rebuild your complete rocker assembly.
It would pay you to ask them first.
|Potentially helpful documentation from Crane, Moss and Elgin on cam profile / lifters / rotation / clearance|
|Valve to block clearance is approx. .465" with a head milled about .100". Coil bind is not a problem when state of the art springs are used. Valve retainer to valve seal clearance is .660". Welded lobes are not recomended.|
|I installed the Crane 340-0002 cam in my engine along with having .100" milled from the head. The interference problem that I discovered was between the top surface of the stock push rods and their contact surface at the underside of the rocker arm. The solution was to install a set of Crane's shorter push rods.|
|Evidently the valve clearance problem with the 0010 cam I encountered with my engine are unique to my configuration. I have a Laystall head with the larger valves which may be cause of the interference of the valves with the block. I strongly suggest that you check your clearance with a piece of clay to make sure you clear. You put the clay on and turn the engine over by hand. Measure the thickness of the clay after to make sure you have sufficient clearance.Do this without the head gasket, you can add in the head gasket thickness to get the total clearance. |
I am using the new type springs from B&S. No problems with coil bind with these modern valve springs.
|Thank you for your responses. Since my first posting before Christmas I have taken some measurements on my TD (actually a unit from a Wolseley 4/44 but the same castings and big valves as a TF).|
Valve springs from seat to top of retainer is 2.007 inches +or- 0.010 (depending on valve)closed. Same is 1.51 inches open. So the travel is slightly varaible about 0.487 inches. According to the 0010 Crane cam installation instructions there should be a minimum of 60 thou clearance over the cam lift of .441 so it would seem that you do need to change the springs.
Valve to block clearance I measured at 0.405 +or- 0.015. This varied between valves according to how far down the particular valve was ground into the seat insert. For the 0010 Crane cam you need 0.561 clearance (i.e.120thou over the gross lift)
and for the 002 cam 0.477 inches on the exhaust valves. So it would seem that cutouts in the block are essential in the former and in the latter if you have a compression ratio anywhere near 9.0. I have a cylinder head with a thickness of 2.923.
I've not worked out how to check the valve to piston situation but I have discovered that my professionally rebuilt engine has its piston crowns between 5 and 12 thou higher than the block at tdc. The block itself may have been skimmed at some stage.
So it is not just a simple change of cam after all!
Incidentally push rods are not a problem. The spot weld on the ends can be carefully ground off and the cups and ball inserts pulled out. Readily available 8mm seamless tube with 1mm walls (in the UK from B&Q) can be cut to length with a plumber's tube cutter and the inserts hammered in-carefully!
Happy New Year everyone.
|Wow! Pushrods for 1950's XPAG from B&Q! Must rush there on Weds and get an extra 10% with my over-60s B&Q card ...|
This thread was discussed between 02/12/2006 and 31/12/2006
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