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MG TD TF 1500 - Dark Red TF Colour Code

My MG Tf was originally painted dark red. Does anyone know the code for this colour.

Jan T
J Targosz

Jan, I think there were two reds, MG Red, a bright color and Autumn Red. Autumn Red being the darker of the two.

Autumn Red on a TD. PJ





Paul sr

Jan, first let me admit that I don't known beans about TFs. But, the NEMGTR Restoration Handbook says that the red color for TFs was M.G.Red., a 'bright' red. TDs were available in M.G. Red and Autumn Red, a darker red. Chris Coopers site (http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/) has manufacturer's codes for a variety of colors, including Autumn Red.
Recent threads on this forum indicate a wide variety of ideas about 'original' TF colors. Good luck. Bud
Bud Krueger

Jan, see http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/mgtf_finishes.htm#BodyCodes for more. Bud
Bud Krueger

This is 1972 Flame Red, a base coat clear coat finish on our 72 MGB. See the results for your self. The TF is going to be painted using the same type paint. PJ



Paul sr

Some will probably disagree with this, but I believe MG red was AKA Autumn red, just that it was used on other BMC cars after the merger and they dropped the MG name for other makes. All the cars I have come across only show the one colour red, which can look bright or dark depending on if flash is used. The paint touch-up kits listed in the Service Parts List only show one red, which would be no good if two reds were used. The dash boards on cars with red upholstery had a lighter, brighter red which probably has added to the confusion.

Matthew.

M Magilton

Jan, my TD was originally Autumn red, and I threw every code I could find to my painter and he said the old paint codes cannot be reproduced. I eventually sent him an old can of Moss autumn red touch-up and he supposedly had my paint matched in an Omni base coat clear coat. I recently took the label with the paint code and formula to a local paint store and had a quart of acrylic enamel mixed up. They told me it was a Toyota color with a tad of tweaking; anyway they mixed it up and it matches perfect.
Soooo, if anyone ask I am calling it autumn red, the moral of the story is don't fixate over a name. Pick out a red you like from a current auto paint book, bright red, dark red and go with it.
Thats just my experience looking for a MG red, Autumn Red paint code.

Regards,
Rich
Richard Taylor TD3983

That could well be the case for TFs. TDs used both, and they were different shades of red. Bud
Bud Krueger

Matthew: That TF I would call MG Red. Its pretty dark until you place it next to an Autumn Red like Buds who had his color matched to a hidden area of a panel.


Chris Couper

The lighter red has many names e.g. EMGEE /MG RED, CARMINE, REGENCY, RENO RED, CORAL RED are all the same RD14.

The darker red AUTUMN RED, DARK RED, DAMASK RED are all the same RD6, but the DAMASK RED has also a newer number RD29

RD being the British Standard Number system for Red
GN Green
BU Blue
YL Cream
BK Black
GR Grey

Most paint suppliers should be able to reference back to the above BS numbers.

Rod Brayshaw

I would be grateful if anyone could provide me with a good photo of factory 'Autumn Red' on a TF or TF part. I have never seen a picture of the supposed two factory (not respray) colours side by side and have never been able to find a period written reference to same. I have attached a shot of TF6388 in its factory paint.

Matthew.

M Magilton

The trouble with photos are they are never true to colour. Matthew my car was originally Autumn Red. Before I stripped the paint off (it had been mostly repainted) I got the paint matched to parts that were still original paint- the front valance under the radiator surround. I can give you a sample at the next T reg meeting if you wish Matthew.
Max Irvine

Matthew
Your Image shows MG Red as I assume you are aware, I have some black and white photos from as new cars in NZ that look dark as you would expect, but I have never seen an original TF in the darker shade, but I have seen a TD.

The two reds I have shown in my previous post are identical to the prewar reds as seen on N types etc. MG just changed the colour names.

Damask Red is an MGB colour but RD6 is darker, MGB used Damask Red RD5. RD6 is also Autumn Red.

My original BMC Colour books by Glasso, the former name for Glasurit show both these colours. They show reference numbers for Berger, Docker, Glasso and I.C.I.
Rod Brayshaw

Max, yes colours can very definitely play tricks, which is why two original paints really need to be seen side by side as a comparison. I would be very happy to receive a sample of the factory red thank you.

Rod, it seems that both of us have never seen a TF in the darker shade. If autumn red was darker than Damask it is definitely something which should have shown up in the period literature on TF's.

Matthew.
M Magilton

My information shows DARK RED as C in the chassis number normally for cars sold new in NZ RHD export e.g. HDC/26. The LIGHT RED had a letter K in the BMC codes.

I have never had a TF with a K in the chassis number in our shop.

When we restored Denny Hulme's TF1500 it was the lighter red and his recollection was light when I showed him both reds. The dash red was lighter again.

All the 7 red TF's we have restored were all the light red and all have the letter C in their chassis numbers.

I know the sales literature states Autumn Red as a TF colour.

Is it possible the factory stamped both reds C or was the literature wrong.

The TD had both Reds up to 1951, but the TD from 52-53 listed M.G.Red only. Why did the factory go back to a dark red for the TF.

The factory renamed colours from the early 1930's so this could have occurred again.

The factory listed paint available, Autumn Red as part # S4/146 and M.G. Red as part # S4/150 available in 1/2 pint. pint and Gallon sizes.

It would be interesting to see a dark Red original TF painted area (under the firewall is good) where it is not faded.
Rod Brayshaw

Thanks for the responses. My colour is certainly the dark red. However in some places the paint appears to have a metallic sheen. Is this possibly original or is just the way the paint has faded.


Cheers

Jan T
J Targosz

"The trouble with photos are they are never true to colour"

Especially if you are referencing a picture in a book printed in China!
Carl Floyd

Good dialog. I am standing by doing website updates with baited breath. For now I will leave the Autumn Red as an option on the MGTF finish page.

Rod: What is your source for the C and K codes for the different reds so I can reference?
Chris Couper

Chris
I collected old BMC colour books and BMC info starting from 1969 as we were completing minor repairs for the BMC dealer for our area of NZ on new MGB and MGBGT. I never throw anything out, but I cannot find the box so far that contains some of this hard copy. Three office shifts are responsible, but I still should have them.

Time is my enemy.

I did note the BMC colour number sequence in an article that I wrote years ago to eventually be part of a book on the MG TF Originality and Restoration, but this is still years off if I indeed find time to complete. One of the problems I faced though was and still do is that I never say never to being able to say that all knowledge of many parts is Indisputably Original and correct.

The colour ID list for BMC is, (note the omission of the I, O and Q as numeral confusion exists for 1 and 0, Letters M and N, I do not know why)

BLACK A
BIRCH GREY B
DARK RED C
DARK BLUE D
ALMOND GREEN E
BEIGE F
BROWN G
C.K.D FINISH H
DARK GREY J
LIGHT RED K
LIGHT BLUE L
IVORY P
WHITE R
MID GREY S
LIGHT GREEN T
DARK GREEN U

THE PAINT type is,

SYNTHETIC ENAMEL 1
SYNOBEL 2
NITROCELLULOSE LACQUER 3
METALLIC 4
PRIMED 5
LAQUER BODY ENAMEL WINGS 6

TF owners will recognise A,B,C,E,H,P, and 3,5,6.from the above.

I noted then that 1% of TF,s were supplied in primer that would reference an H in the chassis number about 90 cars. If you had one of these then the original colour could be anything the dealer or first owner desired! To give an example for C.K.D. L.H. Drive the chassis number prefix would be HDH65/.... R.H. Drive HDH55/....

image is Autumn Red.


Rod Brayshaw

image some T series colours.

Rod Brayshaw

Rod: I wonder what your chip set would look like if it had an MG Red in it?

Here is the BMC red set from Canada in 1959.

As you can see the MG Red is as dark as any of the MGTF images we have seen to date. The Autumn Red is almost burgundy. And the color Red is pretty close to Autumn Red.

You can use a colorizer to brighten up the MG Red a bit to get it to match my car better but the Autumn Red is still really dark.

I would not put it past the MG Factory to just reuse names as they saw fit.

Chris Couper

Excellent responses thank you. This is getting closer to my goal of proving/disproving two shades of red for TF's. Yes, we really need to see the factory Autumn (very dark variety) red on a TF component to see that it actually exists. The names alone are clearly not enough.
Attached another pic of the same car, but note that the flash is picking up the orange qualities. You can also see the plastic tubing to the rear lights.

Matthew.

M Magilton

My TF was originally red. When I found it it had been repainted Clipper Blue. Don't think there is any of the original color left. I had it painted gray.

I think Almond Green is the most elusive color. Would have used it had I found a reliable color code.
Carl Floyd

Hi All,

Just love the evidential discussion on TF detail here which books to date seem to have never really raised in pertinent detail.

Over the past couple of months I have looked at the MG Red colour in a bid to select out a panel paint for our TF1500 which has undergone a total,detailed restoration.

As has been stated before,it is a very difficult excercise because the pigments in tinters have changed from the fifties and alsothe proportion of same have changed.

However,I have chased down a few colours and formulas.Interestingly enough,the same RD14 has references to various names,Carmine,Reno,etc
BUT the Formulas in the current idiom are different at least on the Glasurit paints.
Carmine Red has a brownish(orangey)look
compared to Reno Red which has a more 'reddish' hue.
Carmine Red seems to be from the 1970-78 era whereas Reno Red is listed as a 1950-58
time period.

Colour choice has an individual,personal bias.I have found an early Mazda MX5 Eternal Red(code A3E)an attractive colour on TFs.The RD14 Reno Red is also a possibility.Looks like I will have to have sprayed up each door first with the alernative paints before a final choice is made!

Our TF1500 originally was painted in MG Red as it has an HDC code and is listed as such on the Heritage Certificate.Like so many former MG Red coloured TFs I have seen here,
they were often repainted in the 60s and 70s in the darker red colour!

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").


Rob Grantham

Rod: Another thing to ponder. I remember my father repainting our TD (which has always been red and I color matched it from a hidden panel back to MG Red) many times. For some reason the reds either faded to nothing or just the opposite occurred. They darkened up. Poor quality paints in the 50's and 60's just did not hold up. Reds seemed to be the most problematic.

I was also told by a paint expert that there are more red hues than just about any other color. Lots of variance there.
Chris Couper

Chris, sadly the colour chip for MG RED has been removed from the Glasso book by one of our painters years ago, or it ripped out by constant handling, I doubt if I will ever find it now. We painted all the 7 TF we restored in the lighter Red

I do have a larger sample of MG Red from a NZ colour book Balm of Dulux Duco paint. Duco was the NITROCELLULOSE LACQUER we used at the start of my restoration life.

The image below was originally 5 Meg, I used a pix resizer program to reduce the size but not the quality.
on my computer it is as close as I have seen. It shows the contrast well.

Rod Brayshaw

The image is of a TF1500 that we won the Masters class at the NZ intermarque concours one year.

MG Red is original to that TF.

Rod Brayshaw

Rob

Denny Hulme used the phrase "like blood red" that to me suggests a touch of magenta in the colour

The original M.G. Duco formula had tinters DEEP RED 85%, WHITE 3%, REDUCED BLUE BLACK 2%, PERMANENT MAROON 10%.

the modern paint tinters are now stronger and different.

You must choose a Red, if you are picking from a colour chart, that has the least amount of tinters used or the red will not be "clean" as we say in the trade, but look "dirty"

The Glasurit Carmine Red is what we have used but I will check the current formula to see if there is any change as it should not be orangy. Are you using for your tests 22 Line straight colour? or a Clear Over Base, base?, or the new Water base paint?
Rod Brayshaw

Here is my 1954 TF. Restored in the eighties, originally red according to its HC. Very much the same colour as from Rods colours catalogue. I have not found any certain traces of original paint on/inside or under the car.

regards,

Jan

Jan Kristoffersen

The MG Red on the BMC chip chart is not correct! My TF was originally MG Red and a strip of it remains from behind the left running board and fender. Next week, I'll be away this week, I'll get a photo of the remaining strip on my car. I have even thought of covering the original strip behind the running board for a reference some time in the future. No one would ever know it's there without removing the running board. It looks exactly like Matthews photo of this car.

Paul sr

Hi,

I have used Glasurit line 22 solid colour (not clear over base) in the past.

It seems that different photograghs either from the fifties or even in recent times can reflect a different hue colour for the same car.I suspect this also applies to colour charts.
The dark brownish look on charts in particular does'nt look quite right.

Matts shot of the very original,untouched TF6388 is a good one.However,even with this photo,the various shades of different red can be seen.
The extreme side of the front right hand guard
and the rear right hand guard are more Reno Red in colour but there are also different
colour hues on the front of the front guards
and bonnet areas.

The Balm of Dulux MG Red (nitrocellulose lacquer) colour chip swatch looks a good reference point to me.Overall,very similar to the earlier photo Matt.had taken of the sideview of 6388.

Maybe it is my computer screen,but the Master Class(NZ) TF winner,is quite different in colour compared to the Balm MG Red swatch.

Imho,if we keep away from the very bright Ferrari Red colour,we could be on a winner!

Jan,a nice Red colour on a sharp TF.

Cheers.
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rod,

Just to add,I know you have taken samples from many Red TFs and you know they match the Master Class TF winner in Carmine Red.
I'll bet my life the colour seen in person would be different from what I am seeing on my screen.
Cheers.
Rob Grantham
PS Your continuing input on this BBS site
is most appreciated by myself and many others.
Rob Grantham

Rob, I know exactly what you mean about colors changing due to external lighting effects. Giving that a little leave way is in the norm, the swatch of original lacquer MG Red on my car is close to the top of the scuttle in the photo, but the reflections make it difficult to be sure. PJ
Paul sr

Hi Paul,

I am really keen to see the original Red sample colour re your running boards/fender area next week.Good offer.
Far more important compared to work!(lol)
Cheers.
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Paul, just a little suggestion, give that factory paint a little polish first, than take at least two photos including one with flash and one in daylight. That red has many 'moods' which I think may be part of the confusion.

Matthew.
M Magilton

Rod: Those two chips side by side are spot on. Yes they will both brighten up a bit in outside light, but the difference is what we all need to concentrate on.

In my opinion if the original paint on your car looks at all like red, its MG Red. If you use the phrase burgundy to describe your car then it MIGHT be Autumn Red.

So far the only car picture on this thread that I would state is Autumn Red is Buds car. Even the TD at the top posted by Paul is suspect. Its in the shade and I think it would look more like a deep red when brought into the sunlight.

Look at all the variances of shades that my car has on this one photo depending on the lighting. Its MG Red BTW.

Chris Couper

What a great thread! The team effort and solidarity from different parts of the globe to help future restorers to preserve these cars accurately is remarkable.
Frank Cronin

Rob

about 1989 I received information about a TF owned in the UK by a Richard Taylor who had discovered he had the TF chassis #0251 originally fitted with engine XPAG29748. This TF was used to set up the production line. The XPAG engine was removed and used as an exchange engine. When the TF production was finished TF 0251 was removed from dust covers, fitted with XPEG965 that was built in 1954 and never issued, the log book with the car stated the above and also stated it was painted in Reno Red. So Richard's was one of the first TF built and the last to leave the factory.

Who knows if Richard is still with us and who has this TF now after 26 years?

Rob, you had mixed up small tins of paint, if the mixer added too much or too less of one or more tinters in a small tin the variation can be significant.

I still have the tin of paint from the masters class winner and on stirring it, it is not orangy, but I have another tin the same colour with very little paint left in the bottom of the tin. After stirring up the paint in this tin and scraping off the sediment on the bottom it is more orangy than the other. This occurs when a painter does not thoroughly mix a paint before drawing of enough to use.

If you have the large coffee table type MG book by Malcolm Green, look at the TF featured in it that Terry Andrews restored for his wife Margaret. Terry sadly is not with us now but I had years of dialog with him about M.G. Blues and Reds more so for the MMM era of cars.

The two reds we are discussing here are the same but with different names used in two-tone finishes of the P and N types.

Terry researched anything he was doing so you will see the light red on Margaret's TF1500 in the book.

Rob, Persevere with Carmine red, mix it well with a wide stirrer or get some carefully re mixed, but as the factory stated the last TF was Reno Red I think you will be safe to use this colour if you like it better than Carmine. Don't use a Mazda colour after all the work you have done on your TF so far.

I will now mix up some RENO RED and compare it for my self.

I wish I had more time to look through all my stuff and sit down over some days. I am sure conclusions could be made about many areas of TD/TF originality, but I have more to do now in semi retirement than I had before.
Rod Brayshaw

I am pretty sure this was my TD's original red, found under the peeling undercoating. I wish I had stripped off a section before taking it to the painter and saved for reference.

Richard Taylor TD3983

Rod,

A few months ago,I had input to a request re Formulas for MG Red.

Bruce Clifford (Colorado)was kind enough to send me a sprayed up sample,of his current TF.
The sample was sprayed up on a small metal sheet.Undercoat was applied first followed by the red top coat layer.He had an original colour sample mixed from the side engine louvre piece from his TF before the new panel paint was applied.

On Bruce's TF,the new red paint colour looked like the goods.However,when it arrived here,I was quite dismayed at the darkness of the colour!Bruce had sensibly pre-warned me saying that on the car,the paint looked far more lighter red compared to the sample supplied of the same paint used.It was similar to Colin Stafford's(USA)very original TF's colour.

I do have Malcolm G's book and noticed the bright,light red TF.I spoke to the late Terry Andrews(UK)regarding MG Red.A tremendous felllow with boundless enthusiasm for the MG Marque.I contacted him after seeing an article
on his Red TF.The article was published in Classic and Sportscar,July 1997,Vol.16,No.4.(UK)
The colour again looks fine except in various shots the one colour can be three different colours/hues-RD14 Reno and then also the lighter RD14 Carmine!

Overall,I suspect that Matthew's photo of 6388 and your Balm Swatch,are very similar.Paul's forthcoming original paint sample will also assist.

Your effort on the RD14 Reno Red is appreciated.

It seems different cameras,time of day,angle of shot,ageing,magazine paper,paint manufacturers,computer screens etc.can give a different hue for the same paint.

How did we ever go to Full time work!!

Cheers.
Rob Grantham
Rob Grantham

Frank C.,

Your are right,Cecil Kimber started an amazing wave of interest.The thing is with this site,it caters for all types and levels
of detail from so many different individuals.
Understood that not everyone is into original detail or belting there T Type around a race track
necessarily.There is something for everyone.

Cheers.
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Here is a picture of my car that Rob Grantham referenced. The samples that I sent him appeared to me to be darker than the car. When placed on a fender they matched perfectly. Lighting and overall finish play a big part in how the whole car looks. This paint is a basecoat/clearcoat. When the clearcoat is applied it seems to brighten the car up a lot. I am working on a '73 MGB at the moment. Its original color was "blue royale". I took the boot lid to the paint store to match the original color. They buffed a spot on the underside then shot it with the colorimiter. The mixed up paint appeared to be "too" blue, but when some was put on the buffed spot, it matched perfectly when dried. Once the car was painted, and the clearcoat applied, the shade is still correct, but it appears to be very brilliant. This is especially true in direct sunlight.
On a bright sunny day my red car looks extremely red.
Bruce Clifford

Bruce Clifford

Here is a picture of the blue MGB I spoe of in my previous post. Note that the exterior of the car looks lighter than the inside of the door that has no door card. The inside of the door is the original color of the car. The new paint on the exterior of the car matches it exactly. That is the difference that the clearcoat makes.
Bruce Clifford

Bruce Clifford

Bruce
Two Pack paint has a 99% gloss level, where the original Lacquer has a 70% gloss level that is then buffed to get a good finish. Two Pack is cross linked to harden so its possible the camera sees this gloss level differently.

Some restorers flatten and buff two pack to take away the high gloss to bring it back to near the old paint finish, we do not do this now as the standards of restoration has improved this hi gloss is now the preferred finish.

Your TF Red is with out doubt the lighter red of the two we are discussing here.

Rob

looking at the tinters of Reno and Carmine they both have a light orange tinter, but Carmine has magenta and violet only, so that should produce the blood red look. Reno is strong only in Ruby red tinter, but Reno has one less tinter in total but only has reduced white and reduced black. Carmine has a trace only of full strength black. Maybe a hard choice between the two.

Chris

I have found an old 1949-1950 DUCO colour book chart that lists the YA and TD with two reds , Emgee Red and Mulberry Red. Mulberry Red commencing in 1949 with the YA. Have you come across this red in your TD research? I have not seen this red listed before, nor can I find it in my Glasso colour books.
Rod Brayshaw

Rod,

I may have to get the Carmine mixed as well to compare it 'eye to eye' with the Glasurit
Reno already sampled.In the final analysis,
one has to like the colour choice made.I only want to do the 1500 once!

Bruce,

You are right in that going from a small sized sample to a car panel and then to a whole painted car,certainly can give quite different results to the eye even though the paint used is the same.Your TF looks magnificent in the Red colour.

Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").

Rob Grantham

Attached is a under rear guard photo of my TF 'HDC 26 6367' being 11 cars before and most likely painted from the same 'mix' as the car 'TF 6388' provided by Matthew ... my car was first registered in NZ on the 1st Oct 1954 which had not been repainted under the guards prior to when I purchased the car in 1968, had a chassis number consistent with Rod's observation of NZ delivered 'HDC 26' and being MG Red rather than Autumn Red points to the fact that my car and other NZ MG red cars not being stamped as 'HDK 26' must have been either a factory error or oversight.

The paint in my photo is within the same range of the MG Reds in this discussion but varies considerably across the underside of the guard with the paint under the outer lip of the guard at the top of the photo being the darkest as it would be hidden from the daylight. Paints especially reds fade more rapidly in NZ daylight and the range of colour across the panel was too inconstant for me to use as a basis upon to repaint the car.

In regards to the discussion regarding the difference in colour between a small sample and the appearance on a completed car ... my view is that if a high gloss car is viewed in daylight the apparent depth of red of the car is greatly diminished by the reflectance of the daylight from the multiple curved surfaces, which will give the overall appearance of a lighter red colour.

If a small paint sample is examined we are only looking at the colour perpendicular to the plane of the sample and excluding any reflectance of light from the surface of the sample.

Peter Falconer

Full underside view of guard.

Peter Falconer

This is the shade of red I found under the the undercoating on my TF's wings. I'm afraid I didn't take any photos.

L E D LaVerne

Same car

L E D LaVerne

Again

L E D LaVerne

A good place I have found to get a sample is at the top crest of the fender just near the bolt hole and where the fender bead starts. There is usually a good amount of metal there that has been protected from the elements since the car was produced.

It has been more than enough for color matchers to work with. A little rubbing compound and the right light and they can work wonders.
Chris Couper

If you remember Pilkie's TF, he said he used RD06 MG/Rover Autumn red circa 1960.

I like it so it's what I'm going to use if I can duplicate it.

J E Carroll

Try a quart of the code here and report back.

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_finishes.htm#formulas
Chris Couper

Not back home yet, won't be back till Monday the 30th. Matthew, the tub is on a roller frame and I'll wheel it out of the shop to take photos of the red paint. I'll polish it first. Being lacquer there's no way a sizable chip could be removed to save. I have no idea if there is a portable paint color copier, where the paint could be typed while on the car. Worth checking. PJ
Paul sr

Paul,

When I was at the auto paint store recently I asked if they had a service to scan original paint. In short, they said they had a camera used to scan. Either bring the part in house or they would go to you to the shop.

Granted, this is a shop in S. NH and not OK. Perhaps call around?
Frank Cronin

Thanks Frank, I will do just that. PJ
Paul sr

If they do use a camera I am hoping it comes with some form of calibration plates you can place next to the source so they can lock in all the variables to a known color value first. Otherwise its moot.
Chris Couper

Here's a shot of the red on my TF. It is a macro shot at 4 inches with no flash and natural sunlight.
Remember, this is a camera shot being displayed on a computer screen. On my screen, it appears to have a touch more Orange than on the car. PJ

I just remembered that I have the original left engine panel with the original red on it under the fender. As soon as I can find a body shop with a color coder, I'll take the panel there and have it coded. PJ



Paul sr

Hi Paul,

Terrific to see you follow through as promised re the TF red colour.

A colour coded MG Red reference taken from the sample would be of tremendous assistance.

The side engine panel sounds interesting as well.

Cheers for now.

Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rob, The deeper I get on checking on the TF colors,I believe if a new TF was ordered and red was specified, only one shade of red was used, MG Red. I also believe the factory would do a special on hand color if specified by the buyer, such as Autumn Red. It is a confusing situation and more than likely, contacting a former employee who worked at the factory could shed more light on the subject. It also appears that their paints were not accurately mixed from one batch to another adding more confusion. I am going to pursue getting the engine side panel color coded as soon as I get a chance. PJ
Paul sr

Nice work Paul.
Cant remember if this your shot? (I saved it some time ago). I just add this because sometimes seeing the colour in context also tells us something?

Cheers,
Matthew.

M Magilton

Yes Matthew, that's a shot I took of the only heavy rust spot on the car. Never thought the paint in the photo would be a topic of conversation.
Here's the side panel that was literally butchered to put MGA shocks on the car. I have since bought new panels, being still available. I'm going to buff out a section to see how it comes out, then get it coded. PJ



Paul sr

I note from the TF chassis files a random group from Mid March 1954 commencing from TF3935 to TF4021 all are red with the letter C in the chassis number. Blocks of the other colours run sequentially throughout production as well. It would seem that these batches of colours would be the same shade or from the same bulk batch of supplied paint.

As production progressed in colour batches it may have not been easy to order different shades of red. However it has been said before that if you knew someone at the Factoy it could have been possible to order a different colour.

Red represented the largest quantity of all the TF colours used totaling 3190 or 38% of production, black was next at 20%.

The image shows two TF tank straps from different cars and the rear 1/4 panel from another car showing two exposed original paint areas. all three are identical when viewed by the eye.


Rod Brayshaw

OK, pulled the panel off the shelf. Here's what we have. I believe a paint shop should not have any difficulty coding this paint. At least I have something portable to take to them. Now I have to find a shop, which isn't easy here as we live in the boonies and I might have to go to Tulsa to find one. 60 miles away! PJ



Paul sr

Another that has never seen sunlight. PJ



Paul sr

I have noticed that for lacquer, the paint job was not the best for a manufacture, fine orange peel shows, not a glassy finish! But looking at what they had to work with in the factory, I guess it's not that bad. PJ
Paul sr

Paul, can you show an image of the inside of the bonnet side panel please?
Rod Brayshaw

Paul: How does the other side of the panel where it bolts to the frame compare to the side you are showing us?

I suspect the same since under the bolts I don't see a distinctive color difference.

Its amazing how bright your is compared to the three samples that Rod provided above in one picture. Not only are they the more typical MG Red but they are all identical within tolerances.
Chris Couper

Paul,

Excellent photos of the red colour.
It is amazing how the same paint can look so different in different light situations.The first two shots look darker(nice!)compared to the latter ones. Looks like Chris C. had the same viewing effects on his computer screen.

To encourage you further,re the color scan,do you have anything missing for your current TF resto? Do you have a Purolator or Tecalemit oil canister?

Rod,tremendous stats on the TF colour percentages and photo comparisons for the red colour.

The quest continues.......

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rob, The engine has a Tecalemit filter. I was very fortunate in finding another canister with a near perfect name tag on it. The one that came with the car is unreadable.
The last photo, the close up, looks just like it does with the naked eye. It's the only photo that the color matches the panel perfectly. Is it as it came from the factory? I suppose so, it's never seen sunlight, but would I guarantee it, no. All I can say is, when I polished it, very little color came off, less in fact that comes off my truck when it gets waxed. Aside from the scratches, the red paint on this panel is almost in pristine condition. I'll get it coded when I can make it to Tulsa to a modern paint code. PJ
Paul sr

Good grief, 70 posts on TF/TD Autumn Red.

Did anyone look at images of my TF 6688, with orig paint and the Dave Miller TD, which have been posted on Bud's site and Chris's site.

These two cars are the exact same colour, as they sat next to each other a few weeks ago.

Neither car has ever been repainted.
colin stafford

You did not happen to get a picture of the two together Colin?
I certainly have not forgotten your excellent example.

Matthew.
M Magilton

Paul,

The 'Tulsa Test' would be excellent to complete.

Seventy(70) Posts is a good start!

Dave Miller's MGTD red paint could be a very well preserved MG Red !? Nice.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Although I do not have a Red TF, I have been following this with great interest and check it daily. I think this great thread with outstanding contributions.

It is my hope when all said and done, the surviving original red paint can be scanned and paint formulas from that scan can be shared for future restorers of these fine cars.

Frank
Frank Cronin

Spot on Frank.

Cheers.
Rob Grantham
Rob Grantham

Rod Brayshaw, New Zealand

Paul, can you show an image of the inside of the bonnet side panel please?
------------------
Posted 02 October 2013 at 21:42:31 UK time
Chris Couper, El Dorado County, CA USA, mgtd@mg-cars.org.uk mgtd@mg-cars.org.uk>View vehicle profile

Paul: How does the other side of the panel where it bolts to the frame compare to the side you are showing us?

I suspect the same since under the bolts I don't see a distinctive color difference.

Its amazing how bright your is compared to the three samples that Rod provided above in one picture. Not only are they the more typical MG Red but they are all identical within tolerances.
------------------
Rod, I'll be away from the shop for a couple days, when I get back I'll take a photo of it.

Chris, All I can say is, this paint has never seen sunlight. I'm going to have it coded when I have the time. From that point on, it's up to the individual to use or discard as he wishes. I will say this, if I was to paint this car MG Red, it would be a perfect match to what I'm showing. The back side has a sloppy coat of green on it, almost like over spray. The bottom bolt holes and the ledge above them are a little confusing, as they appear to have been painted red originally as the rest of the panel, but the red was covered up with a dull red primer, the exact color and appearance of the paint under the scuttle, back of the firewall and inside side panels, which appears to be factory. PJ
Paul sr

Seeing how I don't need this panel nor any $ attached to it, I've decided that it will be tagged, placed in storage when all this is over and remain in it's present condition. PJ
Paul sr

Paul, that's exactly what I have done over the years, so to date I have three examples of an original TF Red, two Ivory, and two Almond Green metallic, although we have had two Grey TFs through,I could not get good clear samples at the time. Matthew's TF has this so If needed I am sure he will help anyone who needs this. These samples are from NZ new, and USA imported cars.

I also have good multiple examples of the three interior dash colours. I have never been able to find any reference to these or codes so some years ago I mixed up a reasonable quantity of each with the hope there would be enough to see me out.

I have had requests for some of these and have decided to paint all three onto a piece of aluminium and cut it into strips for Airmail posting.

I will send one to Paul in the USA. Any suggestions to whom in other Country to send a strip to would help?

Those who have already contacted me will receive one.

Addresses can be emailed to me.
Rod Brayshaw

Rod, that would be great! Let me know the postage and or cost and I'll gladly send it to you! Do you have my address? If not, email me. Paul
Paul sr

I own a TF 1500 HDC 9622 since 1962. It was painted the original 'dark red' color. When I decided to restore it, I spent a significant amount of time to color match it to a modern standard, which would be redially available in case a bozo hit me!.
I choose the Damask Red from the MGB line. Photo attached

Tim Moylan

This thread was discussed between 20/09/2013 and 05/10/2013

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