MG TD TF 1500 Dark Red TF Colour Code BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net

MG TD TF 1500 - Dark Red TF Colour Code

Jan, I think there were two reds, MG Red, a bright color and Autumn Red. Autumn Red being the darker of the two. Autumn Red on a TD. PJ

Paul sr

This is 1972 Flame Red, a base coat clear coat finish on our 72 MGB. See the results for your self. The TF is going to be painted using the same type paint. PJ

Paul sr

Some will probably disagree with this, but I believe MG red was AKA Autumn red, just that it was used on other BMC cars after the merger and they dropped the MG name for other makes. All the cars I have come across only show the one colour red, which can look bright or dark depending on if flash is used. The paint touch-up kits listed in the Service Parts List only show one red, which would be no good if two reds were used. The dash boards on cars with red upholstery had a lighter, brighter red which probably has added to the confusion. Matthew.

M Magilton

Matthew: That TF I would call MG Red. Its pretty dark until you place it next to an Autumn Red like Buds who had his color matched to a hidden area of a panel.

Chris Couper

I would be grateful if anyone could provide me with a good photo of factory 'Autumn Red' on a TF or TF part. I have never seen a picture of the supposed two factory (not respray) colours side by side and have never been able to find a period written reference to same. I have attached a shot of TF6388 in its factory paint. Matthew.

M Magilton

Chris I collected old BMC colour books and BMC info starting from 1969 as we were completing minor repairs for the BMC dealer for our area of NZ on new MGB and MGBGT. I never throw anything out, but I cannot find the box so far that contains some of this hard copy. Three office shifts are responsible, but I still should have them. Time is my enemy. I did note the BMC colour number sequence in an article that I wrote years ago to eventually be part of a book on the MG TF Originality and Restoration, but this is still years off if I indeed find time to complete. One of the problems I faced though was and still do is that I never say never to being able to say that all knowledge of many parts is Indisputably Original and correct. The colour ID list for BMC is, (note the omission of the I, O and Q as numeral confusion exists for 1 and 0, Letters M and N, I do not know why) BLACK A BIRCH GREY B DARK RED C DARK BLUE D ALMOND GREEN E BEIGE F BROWN G C.K.D FINISH H DARK GREY J LIGHT RED K LIGHT BLUE L IVORY P WHITE R MID GREY S LIGHT GREEN T DARK GREEN U THE PAINT type is, SYNTHETIC ENAMEL 1 SYNOBEL 2 NITROCELLULOSE LACQUER 3 METALLIC 4 PRIMED 5 LAQUER BODY ENAMEL WINGS 6 TF owners will recognise A,B,C,E,H,P, and 3,5,6.from the above. I noted then that 1% of TF,s were supplied in primer that would reference an H in the chassis number about 90 cars. If you had one of these then the original colour could be anything the dealer or first owner desired! To give an example for C.K.D. L.H. Drive the chassis number prefix would be HDH65/.... R.H. Drive HDH55/.... image is Autumn Red.

Rod Brayshaw

image some T series colours.

Rod Brayshaw

Rod: I wonder what your chip set would look like if it had an MG Red in it? Here is the BMC red set from Canada in 1959. As you can see the MG Red is as dark as any of the MGTF images we have seen to date. The Autumn Red is almost burgundy. And the color Red is pretty close to Autumn Red. You can use a colorizer to brighten up the MG Red a bit to get it to match my car better but the Autumn Red is still really dark. I would not put it past the MG Factory to just reuse names as they saw fit.

Chris Couper

Excellent responses thank you. This is getting closer to my goal of proving/disproving two shades of red for TF's. Yes, we really need to see the factory Autumn (very dark variety) red on a TF component to see that it actually exists. The names alone are clearly not enough. Attached another pic of the same car, but note that the flash is picking up the orange qualities. You can also see the plastic tubing to the rear lights. Matthew.

M Magilton

Chris, sadly the colour chip for MG RED has been removed from the Glasso book by one of our painters years ago, or it ripped out by constant handling, I doubt if I will ever find it now. We painted all the 7 TF we restored in the lighter Red I do have a larger sample of MG Red from a NZ colour book Balm of Dulux Duco paint. Duco was the NITROCELLULOSE LACQUER we used at the start of my restoration life. The image below was originally 5 Meg, I used a pix resizer program to reduce the size but not the quality. on my computer it is as close as I have seen. It shows the contrast well.

Rod Brayshaw

The image is of a TF1500 that we won the Masters class at the NZ intermarque concours one year. MG Red is original to that TF.

Rod Brayshaw

Here is my 1954 TF. Restored in the eighties, originally red according to its HC. Very much the same colour as from Rods colours catalogue. I have not found any certain traces of original paint on/inside or under the car. regards, Jan

Jan Kristoffersen

The MG Red on the BMC chip chart is not correct! My TF was originally MG Red and a strip of it remains from behind the left running board and fender. Next week, I'll be away this week, I'll get a photo of the remaining strip on my car. I have even thought of covering the original strip behind the running board for a reference some time in the future. No one would ever know it's there without removing the running board. It looks exactly like Matthews photo of this car.

Paul sr

Rod: Those two chips side by side are spot on. Yes they will both brighten up a bit in outside light, but the difference is what we all need to concentrate on. In my opinion if the original paint on your car looks at all like red, its MG Red. If you use the phrase burgundy to describe your car then it MIGHT be Autumn Red. So far the only car picture on this thread that I would state is Autumn Red is Buds car. Even the TD at the top posted by Paul is suspect. Its in the shade and I think it would look more like a deep red when brought into the sunlight. Look at all the variances of shades that my car has on this one photo depending on the lighting. Its MG Red BTW.

Chris Couper

I am pretty sure this was my TD's original red, found under the peeling undercoating. I wish I had stripped off a section before taking it to the painter and saved for reference.

Richard Taylor TD3983

Here is a picture of my car that Rob Grantham referenced. The samples that I sent him appeared to me to be darker than the car. When placed on a fender they matched perfectly. Lighting and overall finish play a big part in how the whole car looks. This paint is a basecoat/clearcoat. When the clearcoat is applied it seems to brighten the car up a lot. I am working on a '73 MGB at the moment. Its original color was "blue royale". I took the boot lid to the paint store to match the original color. They buffed a spot on the underside then shot it with the colorimiter. The mixed up paint appeared to be "too" blue, but when some was put on the buffed spot, it matched perfectly when dried. Once the car was painted, and the clearcoat applied, the shade is still correct, but it appears to be very brilliant. This is especially true in direct sunlight. On a bright sunny day my red car looks extremely red. Bruce Clifford

Bruce Clifford

Here is a picture of the blue MGB I spoe of in my previous post. Note that the exterior of the car looks lighter than the inside of the door that has no door card. The inside of the door is the original color of the car. The new paint on the exterior of the car matches it exactly. That is the difference that the clearcoat makes. Bruce Clifford

Bruce Clifford

Attached is a under rear guard photo of my TF 'HDC 26 6367' being 11 cars before and most likely painted from the same 'mix' as the car 'TF 6388' provided by Matthew ... my car was first registered in NZ on the 1st Oct 1954 which had not been repainted under the guards prior to when I purchased the car in 1968, had a chassis number consistent with Rod's observation of NZ delivered 'HDC 26' and being MG Red rather than Autumn Red points to the fact that my car and other NZ MG red cars not being stamped as 'HDK 26' must have been either a factory error or oversight. The paint in my photo is within the same range of the MG Reds in this discussion but varies considerably across the underside of the guard with the paint under the outer lip of the guard at the top of the photo being the darkest as it would be hidden from the daylight. Paints especially reds fade more rapidly in NZ daylight and the range of colour across the panel was too inconstant for me to use as a basis upon to repaint the car. In regards to the discussion regarding the difference in colour between a small sample and the appearance on a completed car ... my view is that if a high gloss car is viewed in daylight the apparent depth of red of the car is greatly diminished by the reflectance of the daylight from the multiple curved surfaces, which will give the overall appearance of a lighter red colour. If a small paint sample is examined we are only looking at the colour perpendicular to the plane of the sample and excluding any reflectance of light from the surface of the sample.

Peter Falconer

Full underside view of guard.

Peter Falconer

This is the shade of red I found under the the undercoating on my TF's wings. I'm afraid I didn't take any photos.

L E D LaVerne

Same car

L E D LaVerne

Again

L E D LaVerne

If you remember Pilkie's TF, he said he used RD06 MG/Rover Autumn red circa 1960. I like it so it's what I'm going to use if I can duplicate it.

J E Carroll

Here's a shot of the red on my TF. It is a macro shot at 4 inches with no flash and natural sunlight. Remember, this is a camera shot being displayed on a computer screen. On my screen, it appears to have a touch more Orange than on the car. PJ I just remembered that I have the original left engine panel with the original red on it under the fender. As soon as I can find a body shop with a color coder, I'll take the panel there and have it coded. PJ

Paul sr

Nice work Paul. Cant remember if this your shot? (I saved it some time ago). I just add this because sometimes seeing the colour in context also tells us something? Cheers, Matthew.

M Magilton

Yes Matthew, that's a shot I took of the only heavy rust spot on the car. Never thought the paint in the photo would be a topic of conversation. Here's the side panel that was literally butchered to put MGA shocks on the car. I have since bought new panels, being still available. I'm going to buff out a section to see how it comes out, then get it coded. PJ

Paul sr

I note from the TF chassis files a random group from Mid March 1954 commencing from TF3935 to TF4021 all are red with the letter C in the chassis number. Blocks of the other colours run sequentially throughout production as well. It would seem that these batches of colours would be the same shade or from the same bulk batch of supplied paint. As production progressed in colour batches it may have not been easy to order different shades of red. However it has been said before that if you knew someone at the Factoy it could have been possible to order a different colour. Red represented the largest quantity of all the TF colours used totaling 3190 or 38% of production, black was next at 20%. The image shows two TF tank straps from different cars and the rear 1/4 panel from another car showing two exposed original paint areas. all three are identical when viewed by the eye.

Rod Brayshaw

OK, pulled the panel off the shelf. Here's what we have. I believe a paint shop should not have any difficulty coding this paint. At least I have something portable to take to them. Now I have to find a shop, which isn't easy here as we live in the boonies and I might have to go to Tulsa to find one. 60 miles away! PJ

Paul sr

Another that has never seen sunlight. PJ

Paul sr

I own a TF 1500 HDC 9622 since 1962. It was painted the original 'dark red' color. When I decided to restore it, I spent a significant amount of time to color match it to a modern standard, which would be redially available in case a bozo hit me!. I choose the Damask Red from the MGB line. Photo attached

Tim Moylan

This thread was discussed between 20/09/2013 and 05/10/2013

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