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MG TD TF 1500 - Dash fit

Hi All,

I was preparing to get my new dash ready for installation by removing the old one, having some beading made up locally, and then doing it...

After I removed the crappy homemade wooden dash, I test fit the new one that I have recovered... Unfortunately, it appears that the new dash is slightly narrower by about 0.5-0.75" than the homemade one. If I shove the dash up as far as it will go, I get a 1/4" gap on the top left (that would probably be covered by the beading), not much of a gap at the bottom left side of the dash, but still a 1/2-3/4" gap on the lower right side.

This replacement dash was one my father had purchased in 1978 to eventually replace the one that came with the car. The car is an early 1952 (from the frame stamp). I believe that the dash I have is for an earlier model TD because it had metal dash light mount points on the back to illuminate the speedo/tach, whereas the 1952's had lights built-in to the dash/tach (correct me if I'm wrong).

Was there a slight dash shape change made when going to the later models, which is slightly wider at the bottom, so that I need to order one of these and start the process over again?

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. I had no idea that this dash might not have fit and that I might have been wasting my time recovering it.

Thanks,
Scott
Scott

Scott,

There wasn't a dash or scuttle change over the life of the TD. I don't know if the chromometric instruments had a different lighting system on the dash, the magnetic ones (curved face) which came on my car have internal lights, no light brackets. The magnetic instruments came about with S/N TD 10751.

http://mysteryship.photosite.com/MGTDRebuild/FasciaandInstrumentpanel/Tach_and_speedo_from_behind.html

You can select slide show to view full screen pictures.

Does your car have the inner dashboard panel (moss part 450-925)? The only thing I can surmise from your note is that the scuttle top (451-850) is either shaped wrong due to the inner dashboard panel being wrong or your dashboard (233-510) is wrong. How is the fit if you don't shove it all the way up, and let it rest on the inner dashboard with space for the gimp all the way around. Can you center it that way?

http://mysteryship.photosite.com/MGTDRebuild/MGTeardown1/Main_Floor_out.html

I have my original dashboard out of my car at this time. I would be happy to make you a paper pattern to check yours against if you email me your mailing address.

dbraun99 at comcast dot net. remove all the spaces and use the proper symbols for at and dot (spam protection)

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info. I'm still working on it from this end. I'll certainly be trying to get a slightly larger dash bead to fill in the gap(s).

The inner dash was already in place (the crappy dash was attached to it), and there is a gap from the right side of the scuttle to it too. So I suspect that the car isn't quite square or something. Door fit on both sides is really good so I'm not sure where the difference is.

The dash I have was bought at Faspec in Portland in 1978 and then sat in various garages and basements for the last 28 years. When I got it, it still had a full cover of very deteriorated Rexine on it, plus the chrome strips, the center instrument panel, and a few of the switches/lights. The two bottom right switches (fog/accessory, etc.) were the same, which lead me to believe it was from an earlier TD (the bottom right control wasn't a rheostat for the dash lights, but was an original type of on/off switch). In addition, the dash had those metal light attachment points. I just removed those since the large instruments have their own bulb sockets. The later dish-faced instruments "seem" to fit fine in this particular dash.

While Moss indicates there are different dashes for flat & dish faced main instruments, I've never heard that the dash fit was different. Your posting seems to confirm that.

My "new" dash is 41 3/8" from lower left corner to lower right corner, straight across, which includes the vinyl thickness & metal bead.

It also looks like I will be having to create my own instrument brackets from something because Moss doesn't sell the originals.

Also, I see that Moss wants $8/nut for the 4 nuts to hold the instruments in! Anyone have ideas for cheaper replacements?

Thanks,
Scott
Scott

Since most of the body panels on these cars were not stamped out but produced individually, I would think finding any two scuttles to be the same would be hard. I know that I used a pattern from one TD for mine and it too came out with the gaps.
Tom

"Also, I see that Moss wants $8/nut for the 4 nuts to hold the instruments in! Anyone have ideas for cheaper replacements?"

Our Lowe's store ( a big box building materials store like Home Depot) has cabinets with drawers in the hardware department that has lots of special little fasteners and stuff. In this there are brass screws with double knurled sections that would probably work, unless the originals are some mystery thread.

Dallas
Dallas Congleton

I would have to assume that the originals are some mystery thread, given the price! Heck, I'd just settle for a hex nut that fit.

For $32, I'm willing to just use a length of tubing over the threaded rod for now.

Dave, thanks for the pics! I found some others on your site that showed some additional things that will come in very handy when putting the new dash together.

Scott
Scott Linn

Abingdon Spares- "Thumb Nut", speedo and tach 65/023,
$3.96. I think they are BA thread. Reasonable for a very low volume produced , ususal wierd thread brass nut. They are about the size of a penny, twice as thick, and textured for grip. George
George Butz

Hmm... I just looked for this on their web site.

Who knew you had to go to the misc page to get a nut specifically to be used with the instruments/dash...

Good news is, on that page they also show the tach/speedo bracket, which Moss doesn't sell.

Thanks for finding that!

Scott
Scott Linn

Scott, in the next few days, or the weekend at the latest, I can measure my original dash (in the attic), as well as what is in my car now. George
George Butz

Hey Scott,

Thanks for the kind words.

The dash in my car (uncovered right now) is 41-1/4 inches on the face side which is wider than the back side due to the chamfer for the scuttle. I would imagine that my dash with the cover and the metal edging will approach 41-3/8. I think you have something wrong with the under dash, and the shape of your scuttle.

Your best bet is to probably make a paper pattern of your replacement dash, slice it and expand the pattern in spots to make it fit, and then cut a new one. Nine ply birch plywood would be the best choice.

good luck,
dave
Dave Braun

I think that the under-dash part is fine, as it pretty much matches the front dash. It's the scuttle, unfortunately.

I don't have any vinyl dash beading yet and I'll eventually need that, so I'll have some made up and then compare how things look with that in place...

If that doesn't work, then your idea will be next in line.

Thanks again,
Scott
Scott

Perhaps that is why the piping along the scuttle is so large...to cover gaps?
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Scott,

The lamp holders you are looking for are listed in the Moss Catalog as item 361-070 Bracket, dash lamp mounting for $4.30 each. They are listed as prior to S/N 10778 which was the last RHD with chronometric gauges. It says you need four.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Scott

I have a spare dash but it is from a 50 with chronometric guages. Happy to loan it for the cost of shipping.
Bruce Cunha

Hello Scott
I believe as Gordon has said that the dash piping and the piping above the doors is larger in diameter than the rest of the interior piping. This is to fill in the gaps. One other thought is, do you have the rear view dash mirror installed. The threaded section of the rear view dash mirror goes through the wood crosspiece, dash to bulk head (moss part #450-915). When installed the mirror pulls down the top of the scuttle until it rests on the wood cross piece. This will change the amount of gap you have above the two eye brows of the scuttle as they relate to the dash fascia. If this is not installed you might want to install it then check the fit of the dash board. At any rate you want to use pinch clamps until you have your final positioning of the dash, before you drill holes for your finish dash screws/ bolts. The nuts to the instruments are very close in thread pattern to 10-32 American fine threads. You should be able to find these in brass thumb nuts at any good local hardware store. Hope this helps, John
John Hambleton

Scott,

I had to cut my dash to fit the body. I followed the Horst's instructions with the piping and after cutting darts stapled this to the rear of the backing board - the result was awful. Eventually I secured the piping with just a few staples, offerred the thing up to the car and literally stuck the pipe to the chrome surround with specks of super glue. If you use a cocktail stick or something similar to place the glue it will be totally invisible. You need to use just a few staples so you can push the flap of the piping into the gap between the chrome surround and the body. By doing this you can get the same width of pipe showing all round. When I had finished I unscrewed the board and shot in more staples.

Jan T
Jan Targosz

Hmm, my first posting didn't come through.

> The nuts to the instruments are very close in thread pattern to 10-32 American fine threads.

10-32 nuts didn't fit my instruments, unfortunately.

I see that in some catalogs they mention an o-ring between the dash and the 2" and larger gauges. Are there other o-rings or washers or gaskets between the switches, choke, starter, horn, headlight, etc.? I can't find any info in the books I have.

Thanks,
Scott
Scott

Scott,

O-rings aren't typically used around the switches, choke, starter, horn, headlight, etc.

The o-rings I've seen are actually square in cross section. In the past, I've gotten a hold of large diameter (about six inches?) round cross section o-rings from a specialty supplier, and carefully cut them to the correct length and rejoined them with a piece of black electricians tape, being careful not to size them so there was stretch. I put the splice at the bottom of the gauge, and drove that way for 20 years. I reasoned that the o-rings are there for cushioning in compression the clamping force of the instrument mount. I doubt they do much for vibration, since the clamp is tied directly to the rear of the instrument, and the instrument rests at least on the bottom portion of the cut out for the gauge in the panel.

My current set of o-rings I bought on ebay, and are the square in cross section type.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Thanks for the o-ring info Dave.

There is clearly an ignition switch gasket advertised in the Abingdon Spares catalog. I'll ask about that when I order some parts.

One hopefully final question... The inner dash on my car seems to be attached with carriage bolts (shiny stainless). The head of the bolt is in the front, and goes to bent metal anchors to hold the inner dash on. The heads of the carriage bolts are counter sunk into the inner dash so that they don't interfere with the dash.

Is this how others' inner dashes are anchored? From your pictures Dave, it appears that your inner dash is held on with much smaller bolts of some sort. Unfortunately, there isn't a close-up of the corners or other sections which would show the attachment bolts.

I suspect that the heads of the carriage bolts will interfere with the wood screws which will attach the front dash, so I'll have to change something around.

Thanks again for all the help everyone!

Scott
Scott

Scott, my original dash is 41-1/4" lower corner to corner, only vinyl in place. George
George Butz

Hi All,

Just an update in case anyone is interested...

It takes a bit for me to work on the TD as I have 3 cars in a 2-car garage, with the TD up on a lift. So I have to kind of plan when I am going to work on it.

This car is definitely an example of something you probably want to avoid buying if you are looking for a TD, or at least buy it with open eyes. I inherited it, so it's not quite so bad.

The PO before my father had re-done all of the wiring when he did the dash, and just used point-to-point wiring and not a loom. All of the wires were cut extremely short, so that most won't reach the standard instrument/control placements. I've been having to plan on extending wiring in quite a number of places. I thought for a moment about just buying a full wiring harness and replacing, but I'm trying to do this cheaply (my wife doesn't want me spending more time than I have to on this particular car). In addition, there are many not-so-cheap parts missing such as the speedo/tach brackets & nuts, ammeter bracket, etc.

As Dave had surmised, I also needed a new inner dash. The one that is in there *appears* to be close to the diagrams in the Moss catalog, however it is just different enough that the instruments don't quite clear and the glovebox opening is too low. So I ordered a new inner dash today.

If the inner dash lines up correctly with my mount points (or I fiddle with them), and I carefully fit the piping around the scuttle, I think that things will just barely fit without any holes (or just barely a slit). So it should look pretty good when done, and not cost that much to get there.

Again, thanks everyone for all the measurements & suggestions.

Scott
Scott

Scott,

My inner dash is held in place with counter sunk screws. not carraige bolts. If you are getting a new inner dash, it may have the holes already countersunk, if not, just get a counter sink bit at your hardware store, which matches the counter sink angle of the fastners you are using. My guess from your descriptions is that the new inner dash may require you to pull the sides of the scuttle together, not a bad thing as the metal is quite flexible, and the wood should come along. If your metal brackets were drilled out to for what may be larger diameter carriage bolts, you would be best to fill the holes with weld and re-drill them. As far as I know, the brackets are no longer available, but you could have some made up locally.

If you extend some wires to create some slack, go back as far as you can to the last connection your PO used, rather than adding more connecters and potential problems. Go with high quality bullet connections which you can solder, rather than the crimp style.

The wiring harness usually doesn't include the instrument loom.

I was amused with your wife's request that you spend as little time as possible on the car. You can sometimes spend a little time and a lot of money, or little money and a lot of time, and sometimes even a lot of money and a lot of time, but never a little money and a little time! My wife prefers that I work on my car at home, even to the point of taking up the entire garage and leaving both of our cars out all winter, because she knows where I am, and otherwise I would probably do it at my shop and between work and the TD I would never come home! Next winter though, with the small amount I'll have left to finish, I will store the TD at my shop, and do the putsy little chrome and finishing things there.

Keep us posted on your progress. We are all enjoying you efforts, and appreciate the fact that you are keeping another MG on the road.

warmly,
dave

Dave Braun

The rear dash is pretty simple in shape...is it too late to pick up some marine ply and cut it out with a jig saw?
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Thanks for the comments regarding the fasteners (screws/brackets). I suspect that I might have to do what you say, either fill & drill or have new ones made. They do appear to be quite simple to make.

I know what you mean by time & money. It's a delicate balance not spending too much of either on the car. Even though I'm at home when working on the car, my wife would rather I be doing something else with her. I'm sure that when I get the dash back together & start driving it more, that I won't get so many comments on either time or money. My wife loves my '68 midget (I've had it since I was 15). She hasn't quite bonded with the TD yet...

Here's some additional info however... We BOTH take another car to the race track for track days, and she really likes driving on the track! So go figure... I have to save that money up for brake pads.

As far as the inner dash, I've already ordered one at $30 so it's not too expensive... I also don't have a jig saw.

Scott
Scott

This thread was discussed between 19/03/2006 and 26/03/2006

MG TD TF 1500 index

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