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MG TD TF 1500 - Dismantling engine? Please help!

Hello,

I need talented opinions regarding the decision of removing the engine from the car. I know that some of you have enough experience to give me valuable recommendations.

The fact is that I have dismantled my TD to the point where the ensemble engine-transmission could be removed from the car by just undoing a couple of bolts (hood/bonnet, front fenders/wings, radiator, steering, floorboards, etc. have been removed and exhaust, carbs, cables, pipes, generator, starter, pump, distributor have been removed from the engine). The way towards dismantling is attractively short…

The cause of my doubts is that before starting the restoration I did not drive the car enough to appraise the condition of the engine, although it started promptly, and the clutch and gearbox worked fine. I have performed a compression test (with cold engine and after more than one year of still stand) and the results were surprisingly excellent. Therefore, it seems that I should not expect problems with rings, valves or cylinder head gasket.

However, I am still worried with other issues, like the loss of oil through the infamous crankshaft seals, or the future condition of the clutch).

Perhaps the best course of action would be leaving the engine like that and enjoying the car. In addition, if I dare to remove and dismantle the engine, I am afraid that I may also cause more harm than good, aside from prolonging the restoration.

So, finally the decisive question is: SHOULD I DISMANTLE THE ENGINE?

Alternatively, what are the tasks I could/should undertake with the engine on the car?

I need and will appreciate your recommendations.

Regards.

Jesus
J. Benajes

Jesus,

If you don't go through your engine you're always going to have those little niggling doubts about what shape it's in - or how much longer it's going to last in it's present condition.

My recommendation is to pull the engine and transmission, put it in a corner of your garage, get your frame and body work completed, and then have your engine overhauled. You'll find the money you spend on the engine itself to be a minor portion of the restoration cost - yet that money may end up to being the best money you will have spent.

My 2 cents,

Gene
Gene Gillam

I FACED THE SAME ISSUE BUT HAD A GOOD AMOUNT OF TIME TO DRIVE MY CAR BEFORE I STARTED THE RESTORATION. LIKE YOU, MY EVALUATION OF THE MOTOR, TRANS, REAR END, ETC INDICATED ALL WAS FINE. WHILE ONE HAS TO MAKE A DECISION LIKE THIS BASED ON HIS/HER CIRCUMSTANCES, THE OLD SAYING, "IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT" IS ONE TO CONSIDER. GOOD LUCK!
J FLESHMAN

Hi,

I'm somewhat ambivalent.

I had the same dilemma with my pea-green TC (now long sold). I left the engine in the car and saved myself a lot of headache, especially since I was only 19 at the time and had no idea what I could have been entering into. Worse, I had a very limited amount of space in which to work and only basic tools. And the basic workshop manual (man, was I brave, or what?)!

The engine ran badly and smoked. I reasoned that if there was something gravely bad like a broken crank, I could always remove the motor and make major repairs. So I left it in place.

I first removed the head and rebuilt it in a week-end. I found lots wrong, but more importantly, I learned a lot. When I started the engine with the fresh head, it ran noticeably better, but still smoked. I removed the SU's to find the jets badly worn. New jets - and now less smoke. Found the engine running hot. Removed the water pump and re-built it. As a matter of course, I replaced points, rotor, plugs and condenser. Cleaned-up the cam followers Now, it sounded pretty good - no, not pretty good, VERY good, but still lacked power.

Bear in mind that this was my daily transport (1952) for a summer job.

I finally reasoned that I needed new rings but still drove it for 4 months, then that winter, still with the engine in the car, I dropped the sump, pulled the pistons, broke the glaze, and re-installed the pistons with .050 o/s rings and new rod bearings, and the following spring, I had a great car that I traded on my first TD.

The moral is that one can do a lot (in stages, if necessary) without removing the engine.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

I vote for the pull it side. You have all the things off that make it really easy to pull the engine and transmission. This makes it very eash to check things like the Clutch, Throwout bearing, Pilot bearing, clutch bearing rod, etc. While you may not want to do a full tear down (from what you say, it sounds like the engine is doing ok.) It makes it a lot easier to check how things are.

It would also make it much easier to look at the clutch and brake pedal shafts. I believe this was rated as one fo the worst things to work on in the TD. It is a bit easier with the engine and transmission out.

Hey, besides, it makes it a lot easier to paint the engine.
Bruce Cunha

I drove my TD for a few months after I bought it. The engine and tranny wre supposed to have been overhauled, and it ran real good. When I dismantled the car for restoration and saw the workmanship to get it to sell I had doubts about the engine. Took it apart and found new rings in badly pitted and scored cylinders, and the rods were installed wrong way around. Tranny had two parts missing. I would check out your engine and tranny.
Dave Rezin

If you're keeping the car then pull it now and you'll have peace of mind knowing what you have. If you'll be selling it then leave it and see how it works out.
D Clark

If you are going to all the trouble of pulling the engine and transmission, bite the bullet and take it all apart. If you plan on using the car and are unsure of condition, I guarantee that there are many worn items in the engine and transmission. It is not hard to do and at a minimum you will know where you stand in terms of work necessary to have a relatively trouble-free existance with your car. The clutch, pressureplate, bushings (engine and transmission) should be changed and look at the innerds of the engine and transmission. It actually is fun to do and not as daunting a task as it first appears.
Cheers,
Rob
Rob Silverman

It will take a long time for the restored engine to sit after you start restoration. Leave it and drive. Its not that big a deal to pull the engine after you get to driving. My restoration to 5 to 6 years and if the engine had been sitting all that time is could have gone bad. I got 10,000 miles on mine before I took the engine out, only after a knock began. Don't do it know. A word to the wise after experience

Ellis
Ellis Carlton

When I purchased my TD the PO stated that the engine had less than 2000 miles since overhaul. His father and brother had overhauled it. He stated that his brother was a certified mechanic. I drove the car less than 200 miles before I overhauled it. It had low oil pressure and a knock. I found that the crank had been turned 20/20 and 10 thousands bearings were installed on the mains and rods. So much for a certified mechanic.
That's why I drove it for few miles before I restored it.

DJ
Don

All good posts guys. Personally I always replace the clutch when I have a car this far apart. These engines are not bulletproof but they are immensely sturdy. I would leave the engine at this stage as there could be years of life in it and you would get the car back on the road where it belongs that much quicker.

Cheers,

Paul.
Paul van Gool

I have bought a pair of new "original old stock" Lockheed rear brake cylinders and am wondering what is the best way to store them and preserve the rubber seals. Should I keep them in the warm dry house or the cool garage and lubricate with silicon grease or not? Hopefully they will not be required for some considerable time.
Ta.
John James

Sorry, the previous posting was entered in error!
John James

Jesus,

As long as you have it this far, I would at least recommend exmaning, if not replacing the clutch assembly. I replaced mine a couple of years ago, and it is a real pain while in the car.

Also, why not at least pull the head and examine it and the tops of the pistons, cylinder walls, etc.? Perhaps with this minimum work you might see something that would require additional work - scoring of the piston walls, corrosion of piston heads, head issues, etc., that might require a rebuild. You can also pull the pan and have a look at the bottom end for other issues before you pull the engine out.

As Gordon said, there is a lot that can be done in stages.

Larry Thompson
Larry Thompson

Thanks to you all for your recommendations. You have made several interesting points that I had not yet considered. And all your comments have helped a lot in taking a decision, although I have still some weeks to change my mind… if required.

I agree that the best course of action would be to dismantle the engine and rebuild it. However, I think that at this time I will resist this temptation. Otherwise I would enter a new dimension in my restoration adventure and would postpone too much putting the car on the road, given the time I can devote to my hobby. I know some restorers who could do the work for me, but I am not sure that they will take all the care I would like, and I would miss all the fun... budget aside. After driving the car I will know whether a rebuild is necessary, even though at this stage I would need to dismantle the car again.

Next week I will use an endoscopic system and look into the cylinder across the sparking plug hole. I will have a better idea of the internal condition of liner and valves.

Anyway, since I am worried about oil drips, I will perhaps follow the procedure recommended in http://chicagolandmgclub.com/techtips/t-types/oil_leak.html, and then paint the engine and start assembling everything…

Any comment or hint on this procedure?

Regards,

Jesus
J. Benajes

Jesus,
Do you have a rigid endoscope or a steerable one? As a surgeon I am well familiar with both types. Unless you have a flexible, steerable scope you will not be able to properly see the condition of the inside of the engine peering through the spark plug holes. I would urge you to instead, pop off the head and take a good look inside. It is real easy to do and at the minimum will also let you look at the head, water channels and inner components much more carefully. It will also let you repaint the engine easier.
Cheers,
Rob
Rob Silverman

Since you are totally restoring the car, do the engine! Seems to me the motor is the most important part of the car- why restore everything else? Most likely the exhaust valves are hammered into the head, the cam is worn, pushrods banna-shaped, crank cracked, block full of sludge , etc. etc. and it will still run like this. The TF1500 motor I did had been rebuild 2000 miles before it was parked for 15 years- the perfect appearing, welded-up crack had around 12 cracks in it. This is experience from the 4 local T-series cars (including my own) that I have worked on over the years. It would be tragic to have to disassemble and pull the engine with a new restoration. Everything would be scratched and beaten up. I may just visually inspect the tranny and change the front seal if it worked well, as they generally break teeth when they go and you would know that already. I personally think the oil leak obsession is really overboard. So what if it drips a bit? It won't rust to the rear, you know there is oil in it, and as far as originality, its gotta leak! Pull that motor out now ! You have to remove 4 (four) bolts and the stabilizer. Count how many with the car assembled! George
George Butz

Jesus,

I stand by my original post - pull it, put it aside, and work on it after you finish the bodywork. As tempting as it is to get the car back on the road, you'll always wonder what is really happening under the bonnet. Remember - these cars are 50 years young. Do you know when the last time your engine was worked on? Believe me, after letting it sit while you do your cosmetic restoration it's not going to run the same as it did when you took it off the road. Gy the way, you did drain the radiator and engine block, didn't you?

Gene
Gene Gillam

Jesus,
I've got to side with every one who indicates that you should pull the engine and inspect/rebuild it,,,There are a few things on our car (52TD) that I wish I had taken care of during the rebuilding stage, but as you, I was in too much of a hurry to put it back on the road,,, and I just thought I would take care of those things later,,, well here it is 20 years later, and I can't even think about missing any driving time for those fixups,,, Do it now for peace of mind,,, you will thank yourself in the years to come as you are happily driving carefree down the road,,,

SPW
Steve Wincze

Jesus

Compression tests should be done with the engine HOT and the throttle held wide open

Harry
H.E.W. Walker

Hi,

Thank you for your answers, I really appreciate your interest, friends.

After all the keenness from your side, the recommendations for dismantling, and my reluctance to do it, I have to make a confession, which surely makes my (previous?) position less defendable (read at the end).

Ok, I am starting to change my mind in favour of dismantling the engine. I am trying to elaborate an estimation of the cost, and the time it will take. Today I will contact with two mechanics who can help if required. But I am still afraid that if I open the engine, I will open a Pandora box. I know I will feel obliged to recondition, renew or replace almost everything (valves, camshaft, piston, crankshaft, bearings, etc)… That will be long and expensive. And I am also aware of the risk of assembling something wrong, and finishing with more problems than before.

I answer to some of your particular comments:

Rob: The endoscope I will use is a straight and rigid one, but with a front lens that can be tilted and rotated, so that the field of vision can sweep practically all the areas of interest in the cylinder. It has also an illumination system through the endoscope. Really, we use the endoscope for taking pictures and movies from the injection-combustion process in diesel engines. However, I agree that the best action in this case would be removing the cylinder head and just looking inside.

George: Yes, I could tolerate a small oil leak, but this is not what appears to happen in my engine. There is a small drip from under the clutch bell housing even with the engine at standstill… figure when it starts to turn.

Gene: I do not know when the car was reconditioned, but it seems that the car was abandoned for many years, and then it was face-painted. I can imagine that the car did a high milage before and that it was not much taken care of.

Harry: Yes I have removed the radiator, the water pump (need a new one), and have drained the block. Oil is still in the sump.

Thanks again to all who have helped with your comments. When I start dismantling, I will return often to ask for your advice….

Jesus


My “confession”

Given the commitment of all you with my query for help, I need to confess something embarrassing: I am a mechanical engineer, and my job is mainly researching in IC engines. I am leading a research team on combustion in diesel engines at a Spanish University. We have one of the best European university labs in IC engines, and since many years ago, we perform difficult and accurate tests in research engines, mainly doing R+D for European companies like Renault, DaimlerChrysler, Peugeot, BMW, Ford, etc.
In addition, some of my colleagues in the Institute are experts in diagnostic and maintenance techniques in engines for transport fleets. They are developing predictive maintenance plans for engines based on symptom-failure analysis.
And with all this bulk of knowledge, I am afraid of opening the small MG engine sitting in my garage… You see how humbling restoration work can be. Really, what my engine needs is a good mechanic (preferably expert in XPAG engines), not a horde of engineers….

Well, by the way, if I can be useful in this domain, just let me know.
J. Benajes

Jesus,
Carl

Jesus,
Sorry about my previous incomplete msg. My computer "jumped the gun" & sent before I was done.
My experience may be of help to you in making a decision. MY TC sat in dry storage for over 20 years while my budget was devoted to raising 4 children. When I decided to put her back on the road, I concentrated my efforts & $ on getting the body in shape with new paint and a new interior. I left the engine intact, reasoning that, since it was running fine when stored, there was no reason to open it up and look.
Within a couple of months of driving her again, I suddenly started hearing ominous NEW tapping sounds from the engine. The sounds became noticeably louder, so I dropped the sump and a couple of bearing caps. All of the bearings I looked at looked as though mice had been chewing little trails on them!!!
To make a longer story short, I then decided to pull the engine for an overhaul. Luckily enough, the crankshaft had not been damaged, and only needed a very light polishing. However, had I ignored the tapping sounds, I'm sure I would have damaged, if not destroyed the crank, and maybe even have thrown a rod through the side of the block.
If I were to again face such a decision, I now would remove the head for inspection of valves & cylinders, and drop the sump for an inspection of the crank & bearings.
Regards,
Carl

Carl

This thread was discussed between 13/02/2004 and 23/02/2004

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