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MG TD TF 1500 - Ebay 231240023213
|There is a TF for sale on Ebay that has interesting provenance. On the right bonnet side panel there is an interesting European dealer emblem. The add states it is a Swiss Export Car - JH Keller AG of Zurich. |
Pictures of the emblem is 3/4 of the way down.
Anyone see one of these before?
|Lovely looking car.|
" The Black cars came with either Tan, Red or Green Dashes… that's it. Do some homework and you will find this information is readily available."
The black interior and green dash, tan gloveboxes (possibly wear and deterioration), black hood and hood frame make we wonder about his assertions. They also don't agree with what has been discussed for months on this vary knowledgeable forum.
Everything I have read stated that J.H. Keller (who was a very good mate of John Thornley) imported, in the majority, fully built cars ready for sale. They did import chassis-only pre-war cars and, I think, Y series (I stand to be corrected on this).
Clausager in "The Original MG T Series" (I know!) quotes only 2 chassis-only cars for the whole production of TFs, both RHD home market cars. I have read elsewhere these went to Ireland??
E13145 on a silver head - has anyone seen that stamping before?. Mine does not have the correct head is why I am asking.
He also seems to be a very touchy seller.
Just my 2 bobs worth.
|Quote: He also seems to be a very touchy seller.|
He's a jerk. And he needs to do the research.
Sometimes I wish we could vote down ebay sellers like you do on blogs etc.
Thank goodness they don't have that feature here :-)
|I wrote this to the seller:|
I hate to disagree with you, but on every TF the dash color matches the leather interior color, and your car has what looks like black vinyl upholstery that cannot be original. Also, the kick panels aren't factory (no piping), and have clearly been replaced, as have the steering wheel, top (should be canvas), shift knob, choke cable, carpets, exhaust, air filters, fuel lines, radiator hose clamps, guarantee plate screws, engine paint (should be red). etc. etc. It's an interesting car, but not original. You don't even mention the two coolest accessories - the Swiss spare tire cover, and the Laystall Lucas aluminum head! Tom
I'm looking forward to his reply - and will pass it along.
The production records have little detail about TFs, and have nothing to say about this one.
|Laystall Lucas aluminium head.|
Thanks for that !!
I should have looked a bit harder at the photos
|Hope it comes with hip-boots to get through all that BS!|
Pretty car..."all original survivor"...NO WAY.
IMHO: When caught red handed lying about as many things that are this obvious...it makes it very hard to accept the rest of "the facts"!
|Would be a nice car if the interior was sorted. The dash seems to be hanging low on the left. The dash paint could be the right faded green for TF dull green interior. I wonder if the door panels have been dyed black?|
|Nothing to do with originality but don't the two fog lamps (one should be a spot lamp with clear glass)look awful, positioned to the outside of the over riders, especially when there is a badge bar fitted.|
|I did also contact the seller. I never do. I just like to see what cars are out there, add to my continuing research, and see what they sell for. When I read these ads when a seller hypes up condition and makes outrageous claims, I usually just roll my eyes and click the back button on the tool bar. In this case when this guy simply insults a potential buyer "to the the facts and do research" and posts it embarrassing the person, this guy is a total jerk off.|
When I first saw this ad I did not know there were additional photos on the Photoshop website. I didn't see the link. I can count approximately several dozen things wrong with this car. Engine painted black.... really????
He did reply to my email. He didn't post it though on his Q & A on Ebay though like the insulting question from the other potential buyer. He won't for Tom's either.
<<Thanks for all your remarks… as to the interior, after doing some research I would agree with you on the color according to the information that is on the internet. However the gentleman that bought and still owns the car since 1968 was told by the Air Force Officer that he special ordered the car the way it is presented today. Sorry, but the current owner is in his 80's and may be not remembering correctly, but he is adamant about it. In terms of the paint I would disagree with you, I believe it to be completely original. Same with most of the chrome… the hubs were recently replaced and the originals go with the car.
There are eight pictures under the hood, possibly your computer is not loading them, but in the text of the write-up there a link to my Photobucket account and you can look at them there. Please provide the "other list of items" that you are referring to if you would like me to try and get some answers for you.
Sorry if you don't agree that the car is a survivor, but I disagree with you personally, but we are all entitled to our opinions.>>
|I can't get pictures of the engine bay from ebay! They don't seem to be listed, any clues? PJ|
|Paul S Jennings|
I can see his point.
Although it is not the definition we normally associate with autos:
v. sur¡¤vived, sur¡¤viv¡¤ing, sur¡¤vives
1. To remain alive or in existence.
Dude must be a lawyer!
Could be an interesting test case when /if a new owner Does some homework!
Normally don't write idiots like this ...might have to jump on the band wagon here!
|I want to be perfectly fair - the seller just wrote me a somewhat apologetic note to say that he was totally relying on the information he got from the 85-year-old owner, and he is not an MG expert. There was nothing stubborn or unpleasant in what he wrote.|
I agree that the description is overly-focused on the "original" and "survivor" aspects of the car, which may not be quite as original as he was told. But let's not shoot the messenger.
Engines are usually painted when OUT of the car, so this makes me wonder if it has not been rebuilt at some point... I can't see any of the lockwires or details that would show if it was a virgin, so I can't tell.
Nice looking TF, However I believe your claims of it being benchmark original survivor are not quite in line with how most serious collectors define these terms! This is obvious in your pictures. There was only one TF that left Abingdon with a black interior and it was a white car. While true that dash coloure was Tan, Red or Green, it matched the interior trim. Maybe you should do some homework? A few other problems: Black vinyl hood (top), Engine block Black (Dark Maroon/Red is correct). Wrong air cleaners, Valve & Tappet covers, Steering wheel, Carpet, Trim panels, Fuel lines, Head, Exhaust….ect ect. What is most disturbing is that the Vin plate at some point has been removed and replaced on this car using incorrect fasteners. There is no explanation for why the engine has been removed/rebuild on a car having only travelled some 34k miles? Do what you will, (it’s your listing), however, IMHO, the MG community as a whole finds the claims made in your listing quite misleading.
$100 says this will NOT be included in Feebay questions!
Agree with some of that, but not the "hype-type" if you flat just don't know!
If he comes around and fixes the listing then everybody wins so the members of this BBS have done a good thing.
Let's hope that is what happens.
(PS: I sent above before I saw your last post.)
|I sent him this..|
There are a number of things on the car that are not original. The dash color, choke cable is a plastic knob replacement and not bakelight. The interiors were never originally black on a TF. Neither was the top and they did not leave the factory with vinyl. The rubber packing between the bumper and over riders is a common install by most owners but it didn't come that way from the factory. Clock appears to be missing one hand. Steering wheel is aftermarket as is the gear shift knob. Same with the valve cover and tappet cover. Carpet is wrong, but at least it's the right color. Dash panel is missing a lens and it has two red. Should be one green, one red and one blue. Air filters are cheap replacements and not correct. The rattle can black underneath the car doesn't do anything for originality in my book.
The car has a lot going for it with the Laystall cylinder head and the spare tire cover...but originality is not a selling point
Probably a car dealer with the typical BS.
|Send him the link to the original TF site so 'He can do his research'|
|I've been in long correspondence with the seller, and he is pretty disgusted with us "experts." I think he and the owner will be pulling the ad pretty soon. I sympathize, in a way - he is reporting what the owner says to him, and who is he to doubt (his temperament is something else...)?|
I have made clear to him that IMHO this is a nice car, but is not as described in the ad - that enough of the basic fabric of the car (if you will) has been replaced, that it is not a survivor - top, interior, many do-dads, etc. I would prefer to see a VERY tatty original car to a tarted-up old restoration, any day. This feels to me a car that has had a lot done to it after the fact.
My suggestion was that he re-write the ad to better reflect the condition. He still struggles with things like the interior - the owner swears that that's the interior he got in the car in 1968, and that the seller said it was the original interior when he bought the car new. Where does one go from there? He says he has received notes from other export car owners, who also have vinyl, and who also claim it is original - along with the dash color. (I confess I find this very hard to believe, and would like to see them.) But where does the argument stop?
I'm going to continue to believe that MGs came with leather interiors, period.
|The seller has taken it down; here's what he wrote (in part):|
"I certainly don't want to deceive anyone and I am not an expert in this area, so I gotta go with you guys over the old Scottsman. The evidence appears to be compelling and it is the right thing to do."
I think he has done the right thing - the car was up to $15k, and then dropped down to $10k - clearly a bid retraction.
|Very commendable ...and the right thing to do. |
I , for one, would like to think we possibly saved him from what could have been some legal problems had new owner pushed the "facts" after purchase.
Hope he relist and wish him best of luck with the sale!
|Just looked and it was ended as of a little after 9:00 a.m. PDT due to an error in the listing.|
While the claim to it being a"34k mile TIME CAPSULE CAR!!!" is clearly hyperbole, it is a very nice TF.
There have been many T-types with black interiors presented on numerous sales sites and cars in very good condition don't suffer in value from that - and it is not rare for such cars to be advertised as "original."
TF's in comparable condition routinely sell well into the $ 20,000's and this one should be no exception.
With a more reasonable description which won't draw fire from a tough audience, the seller should do well with that car.
It stacks up well against the other TF's currently listed. For example there's 171337830776, which is billed as an "all original" nut & bolt restoration - original right down to the wood grain on the instrument cluster panel, three-eared knock-offs and vinyl top all for $ 34,900.
|Having now viewed it on Ebay it's not original condition at all in my opinion.|
I think 134486 miles would sum it up for me.
|Its amazing the number of people that never consider that the odometer could have rolled over. Mine went around twice in its first 20 years and has been stuck ever since :-)|
This thread was discussed between 25/05/2014 and 07/06/2014
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