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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - EFI

While wandering around, somehow I came across a product I'd never heard of: bolt-on, retrofit electronic fuel injection systems. Mostly (obviously) designed for large V-8s and American muscle, it still makes me wonder if anyone has investigated this? I know that the supercharger crowd and the 5-speed crowd are always looking for a bit more oomph from the old XPEG engines, so I wondered if anyone out there has looked at this option? They offer improvements in speed and in mpg, as well as I would imagine all kinds of tuning options.

Just curious as to people's thoughts on the subject.
Geoffrey M Baker

It would be curious to know if Edelbrock or other after market carburetor manufacturers considered this for the British cars. Perhaps there is not enough British cars to justify the expense of pursuing the venture.

Cheers

Gary
79 MGB
gary hansen

Yes, it occurred to me that probably all you need is the right plate or adapter to fit our manifolds, which could be homemade; but my bet is that the intakes are all way too big for our 1250cc engines... When wandering the web I came across Edelbrock, FAST and a couple of others all offering bolt on EFI systems.
Geoffrey M Baker

It has been done several years ago. I read a blip on it on the wan and have a pic somewhere in my library. Should be able to do a google search and come up with it.
W. A. Chasser

There was a mgb here in town ( Canton, Ct )with a custom made efi,, havent seen it for a few years..

Steve
Steve Wincze

I've had in the back of my mind for many years to make an EFI conversion kit for the SU carbs. It would consist of a special locking damper assembly to hold the air valve piston in the up position, and a fuel injector that would replace the normal jet assembly. The fuel bowl would remain but would be internally plumbed to carry the fuel from the intake banjo directly to the jet tube which would, of course, now feed the injector. If designed correctly it could be barely noticeable as not being stock.
Kevin McLemore

Kevin,
Very good idea !!!!

Steve
Steve Wincze

This has been installed in many cars. It might give you some ideas for the MG.

http://www.pattonmachine.com

Joe
JWP Policastro

Since I restore and maintain many types of foreign cars - Triumphs, MG and Mercedes, I get to see a lot of really neat modifications. Now I understand these may not be for the purists but some are super cool.

In many areas, I have used some of Bob's ideas since we both have a 1975 TR6. He also has a superb TR7.

As many of you are aware living in the mid-west and the east coast has many advantages when it come to British cars. With exception of the extreme west coast, we do not have many Brits in other parts of the West.

Enjoy this site.

http://tr6.danielsonfamily.org

Joe
JWP Policastro

One of the guys in my club installed EFI in his MGB. Actually helped sponsor it through the local BCIT (college)about a year ago. Appears to be operating OK at this time.
Cheers...Barry
Barry Ryley

Don't know if the MG Enthusiasts magazine is available in the States but in the August 2016 edition there is an article on tuning MG engines and a description of fuel injection kits for a A and B series engine is given. You may not be aware but the very last of the original Minis were fitted with fuel injection. It's not easy though. Looks like a return pipe to the fuel tank, a swirl pot, high pressure pump, Lambda sensor and a whole lot of electronics will be required. If anyone manages to get a copy of the magazine look at page 66 to see my old M Type which the current TF replaced.

Jan T
J Targosz

I thought that at one point Moss was working on an FI system primarily for MGBs and especially the post 1975 ones with the single Stromberg carb. Perhaps they gave up due to the difficulty of getting it certified with CARB.
John Quilter

Here is an outfit in Great Britain:

http://www.kauto.co.uk

which advertises fuel injection conversions for our cars, as well as many other LBCs. The one for the H2 carbs costs
1500 pounds ($1956) plus shipping. Given the number of items in the "kit", it is probably not for the faint of heart.
Charles Duffy

Thanks for the link Charles.
If you go to the EFI section of the kauto.co.uk website, they have an interesting pic of an installation with SU carbs. Looks very doable, at least in a TD. If you examine the pic carefully, it looks like there is a bolt on plate maybe an inch wide (maybe only half an inch) which will move the carb units and the air filters outwards that distance. I think this could be done on a TD without too much modification, but the narrower clearances on a TF might make it impossible without cutting or altering the side panel on the TF...
Nonetheless, I give it points for keeping most of the original look of the carb setup!
Seems to me that anyone looking at electronic ignition systems might find an EFI system even more preferable (greater reliability, better mapping, better power, better mpg, more reliable startups)...
Geoffrey M Baker

I wrote to the people at www.kauto.co.uk and here is what they have to say about installing their system on a TD:

"Just been looking at the TD I have here in my workshop.

It would be tight to use the adaptors but I think it would just fit.
You could also have the adaptors machined to make them narrower, you ought to be able to take around 5 or 6mm off them to give a thickness of around 20mm.

There are a few options for your vehicle.

1 - Slimmed down adaptors
2 - Standard adaptors and replace the inlet and central air filter with a pancake type filter on each carb, which should give more space.
3 - Fit one larger injector into the central airfilter

As our system is very flexible it could be made to work both on the TD and the TF, maybe the same solution for both or maybe differing installations

Best regards and many thanks
Kevin Eagling
KEE Automotive Ltd
kevin@kauto.co.uk or www.kauto.co.uk/contact
07968 448803"
I include his email in case others here are interested.

But now, I have a question for Kevin: Without wishing to affect any plans you might have to produce a commercial product, I'm very interested in talking about HOW one might go about installing a fuel injector where the current jet assembly is. It seems to me (at first glance) that it might be actually pretty trivial, as simple as creating an adaptor that screws into the underbody of the carb assembly where the jet fits now, which is threaded for a modern metric or SAE thread for a modern injector. Seems to me like the float bowls would be completely bypassed, and the accelerator linkage would still be needed to control air flow. Why would you need to lock the air valve in the up position? As you suggest I think it could be made to look 100% stock except for the injectors and connections, which would be largely hidden underneath. I'm guessing a modern fuel pump would be required, I'm not sure that the existing SU pump would handle the needs of an injector adequately.
More thoughts?


Geoffrey M Baker

Yes, Geoff, that's pretty much what I was thinking. As I mentioned in my first post, I envioned using a new damper cap that would effectively hold up the air valve but look "stock" (perhaps a threaded bushing would be pressed into the oil well and the damper would tighten down into this rather than the top of the bell). Then remove the jet assembly and adapt an injector into that rather large hole. Fuel plumbing would use HS2 fuel bowls (like on a Sprite) with a high pressure tube inside running from the float jet (removed) orifice, through the bowl and out the hole (perhaps enlarged) where the jet feed tube normally screws in, then over to the injector. The higher pressure fuel pump would then plumb to the carbs just like a standard fuel pipe would. All you would see would be a couple of odd wires coming down from the jet(s) / injector(s) and the lack of a choke cable. The throttle valves would remain as would the linkage. As to the pump, I'd imagine you could make one look a lot like a Smith's pump with a bit of fiddling and some graphics.
Kevin McLemore

Thanks for the reply Kevin, very interesting.
I think that it sounds very do-able. Injector inserted upside down into the jet assy. Fuel pump hidden out of sight or routed in-line pumping through the existing pump (valves removed). I've also been talking to Kevin Eagling who has a TD in his shop and is going to see what he thinks he can do over in Blighty.

In Kevin's retrofit kit you get the following sensors:
Throttle Position Sensor
Air Temperature Sensor
Coolant Temperature Sensor
Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor
Distributor Sensor
Distributor Pickup ( you need to specify at time of ordering how many cylinders )
Ignition Amplifier
Idle Control Valve ( refurbished )
Idle Control Valve Housing ( refurbished )
Wide Band Oxygen Sensor Amplifier
Wide Band Bosch Oxygen Sensor
Weld On Oxygen Sensor Boss

Most of these are probably not hard to install (pressure sensor tapped on the manifold, oxygen sensor welded on the exhaust, coolant and air temp sensors pretty easy and could fit in a variety of places). The throttle position sensor is designed for SU H2 carbs so it should mount directly (can't tell from the photo exactly where). It sounds like the distributor simply needs his pickup, other ones requiring sending the distributor in for refurbishment and alteration...
Anyway, Kevin will get back to me once he's played with his TD sometime next week. I'll let you know what he says.
Geoffrey M Baker

Kevin McLemore:
"The fuel bowl would remain but would be internally plumbed to carry the fuel from the intake banjo directly to the jet tube which would, of course, now feed the injector. If designed correctly it could be barely noticeable as not being stock".

This is an interesting concept but it should be kept in mind that the injector would require some 35-39 PSI to operate if it is like most modern injection systems. Could the old SU parts still used tolerate this and not leak?

From my decades of British car warranty experience, one of the issues with early EFI systems was fuel leaks and the resultant thermal events.
John Quilter

While I like the idea of internally plumbing the fuel bowls, it's purely cosmetic. you could simply run fuel lines under the carbs directly from the pump to the injectors, and bypass the carb/fuel system completely. The throttle position sensor would tell the system how much fuel to pump... You could leave banjos etc all in place, but they would be purely decorative.
Geoffrey M Baker

Check out the latest edition of Classics Monthly. There is a long article showing how to fit EFI into a Minin. I think it would be possible to use the same kit on a T Type using the single carb maifold from a Y Type. Only problem is the kit costs 1295 but how much do two brand new carbs cost?

Cheers

Jan T
J Targosz

Yes, EFI is clearly not cheap, unless you have access to a good junkyard, a really good knowledge of computer EFI systems and a machine shop to make the adapters... still, long term reliability, speed and mpg improvements, all have to be counted into the equation as well. EFI looks to cost around the same as a new set of carbs, or a few years worth of carb rebuilds and maintenance.
Geoffrey M Baker

This was the pic I was referring to earlier but I can't find the discussion page I got it from but it was several years ago

Bill Chasser
TD-4834

W. A. Chasser

About a year ago I saw a B with EFI using Honda motorcycle throttle bodies. Not sure what the computer was. It seemed to run well. It had a sawtooth wheel on the front of the crankshaft to provide timing and RPM information for the computer.

Chuck
:Urmacher1

Of corse the EFI would be excellent to combine on a TD and Turbo, to take advantage of the combination of the two. It would be stump pulling torqy thing with all that TD stroke. The EFI would balance out the rotten running character of the small bores, and make the engine able to start like a MGB, or perfection easy. Forget SC, too espensive. Turbo saves 1000's, and the lag is not problemantic in TD, as you need to pause and clutch and pause anyways due to the primitive sub standard downgraded gearbox. I added a 2 stroke leaf blower from HD (little jap thing) to a gorgeous YT, which I am sure you all know how to do if you get popular mechanic magazine, and some light fabrical work and a blowtorch. A couple of weekends is all it took. 1000's less than a turbo, yet for those inclined to being mechanic artists the end result is dead even with either turbo or SC technology as we know it. Highly recommended for that little stroker X engine that came in the TD.
S Callahan

Update on EFI... Kevin Eagling of KEE automotive, who makes EFI adapters for old British cars, has been looking at what could be done on TD.TC series. He believes it is very possible to build an adapter which will allow the installation of an injector, upside down, into the jet assembly. He thinks there would be no leakage issues, and the 43 psi pressure of the injector should overcome any gravity issues of an upside down installation. He took a carb and removed the jet and here is a picture of the injector (without any adaptor, just placed in the jet assembly hole).
The advantage of this approach is that it would be the most minimally invasive and virtually invisible.

Geoffrey M Baker

FI makes it easier to run CNG. Still would need a pressure (fuel) tank, gas compressor, etc. http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a7487/should-you-convert-your-car-to-natural-gas/
D mckellar

Yeah, Geoff, that's pretty much what I was envisioning. Nice.
Kevin McLemore

This thread was discussed between 07/08/2016 and 27/08/2016

MG TD TF 1500 index

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