MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Electronic ignition

Hey guys,

So I am looking at upgrading my ignition. This picture is from the Moss catalog. I am not sure what I need. My 52 TD is what I consider a early TD because of the TC style flat gauges and car number 8732. I am running the stock distributor and I believe the condenser is soldered but I have replaced the condenser in the past. I am not sure about the asymmetric and symmetric portion of the description. My car is still positive ground. Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks,

Rich


Rich King TD 8732

CSI ignition distributors!
http://www.csi-ignition.nl/en/home.html
http://www.csi-ignition.nl/en/dealers/usa.html
CSI MG T type distributors in stock!
Many happy customers!
12% more power from Mini Mania magazine.





Len Fanelli

You will get as many negative responses to pertronix as you will positives (as it were...), because they will fail literally without warning after running fine for whatever time period it happens to be. They seem to work great for days, weeks, months or years, and then - nothing. That is why most Pertronix owners carry a points plate in the tool box, to be able to get home. It's 100% reliable, until it is 0% reliable.

Other units, like 123 and CSI above, have a much lower failure rate than the budget Pertronix, but, of course, cost more, and look different from the T-series distributor.

If you look in the WSM you will see pictures of the different distributor cams; you need to get the right Pertronix for your distributor.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Pertronix and other igniter heads only deal with (the top) half of the issue or problem as you're still left with rest (bottom) of the dissy that's very often worn. I've read, in the 60s at least, that dissys were often out of spec within a few years of the car leaving the factory so add on decades of use (abuse and neglect) they're often not that great in not that many years from new.

If you're interested in the car running well (better), fit and forget, and reliability then changing to a new fully (top and bottom) electronic dissy will give you this.

I've had the UK version of the Pertronix and it was fine but swapping from that to a (123) fully electronic dissy made a noticeable difference. I've had absolutely no reliability problems in the 11 years it has been fitted and used all year round with a 1973 midget that always sits outside, and through English winters (and summers).

If I was buying now I'd probably go for the CSI, because of the cap mainly, easier adjustment too but unless your car is way off standard selecting one curve and sticking with it is enough I found with the standard 123 even though my car is modestly uprated (not counting the fully electronic dissy) and the petrol over here has changed in the 11 years.

Nigel Atkins

By the way CSI units for T types:
New Lucas Type 23D or 25D housings, without a vacuum advance or with a vacuum advance for MGA, TR3, AH 100-4 carbs if requested.
Supercharged or normally aspirated advance curves.
Len Fanelli
Len Fanelli

Re: CSI... 12% more power than what? I can't accept that simply changing the distributor in your T-Type will yield 12% more HP unless the old distributor was seriously messed up. I'd love to see data that shows otherwise however.

I agree with Tom about Pertronix. They are great until they aren't. Some people go 20 years without issue, and some suffer constant failures. I personally attribute this to electrical issues. These old cars don't supply the clean, stable power that new cars do, and electronics hate variations in voltage and bad grounding. I have Pertronix in one car that seems to be doing fine, and Luminition in another which is also working well. But the rest of the cars have points, which is actually my preferred setup. The key with points distributors is to use quality points and condensers, not the junk being passed off as Lucas these days.
Steve Simmons

http://www.csiignition.nl/bestanden/article_miniworld_nov_2012.pdf

"Out of the box" on setting# 8 the CSI was better than a re bushed / re curved Original MG T distributor.
When I dialed it to # 11 by as recommended by one of my cam customers, after he checked all 16 curves on a Dyno, I was pleasantly surprised to say the least.
email me for testimonials.
Len
Len Fanelli

I've been running one of these Crane electronic ignition systems for 30 plus years with no issues. Maybe I am on borrowed time. Purchased from Moss decades ago but they do not seem to supply these now. Uses the original distributor.









John Quilter (TD8986)

Check out the spec before you buy. If you refit a points distributer you can set the engine to TDC and then turn the distributer and look for a spark. With electronic ignition the rotor arm needs to be spinning fairly fast to trigger a spark and simply turning the distributer by hand doesn't work. Some of the more expensive kits have a LED that lights up when a spark is triggered and setting the initial timing is easy. If you don't have this facility the only way for initial setting is to remove the plugs, set up a stroboscope, turn the engine with the starter, look at the marks on the pulley and twist the distributer until they line up.

Jan T
J Targosz

Slowly turn the ignition to the right (clockwise) until the blue led lights continuously. The CSI is now
adjusted to the static adjustment point. Tighten the CSI
Len Fanelli

We have a TD and a TF. They are tuned by a guy who tunes cars for Goodwood and other top races. When he tunes them, they stay tuned for years. He has masses of experience.
I asked him about electronic ignition. His response was "it is easier to replace the points on Dartmoor in thunderous rain in the middle of the night (in your case read the Mojave desert in a sand storm) than to fiddle with electronics".

A lot of us carry a spare distributor plate c/w new points and condenser which is very easy to fit, even when wife / girlfriend is exceedingly unhappy holding a torch in foul weathre.

So why go to the cost and complication of electronics?

Bob Marshall
R J Marshall

"So why go to the cost and complication of electronics?"

To save -
. carrying a spare distributor plate c/w new points and condenser
. wife / girlfriend getting exceedingly unhappy holding a torch in foul weather
. needing a guy with masses of tuning experience

The 123 is put in twist until a green light, fit it, forget it - and have better starting and running throughout the range with better performance (mpg and hp).

Bob,
you can't trust your tuner or your dissy much if you carry a spare dissy, why not fit something you can rely on, and save boot space. :)
Nigel Atkins

What are you expecting out of an electronic ignition? Do you drive your TD frequently or just now and then?

I had a petronics in my car for 20 years. It finally failed. It did not give me any trouble until it failed. I sent the Dist. off to Jeff at advance distributors and had it fully rebuilt with points.

I don't drive my car what I would call frequently and every year, I go over the car prior to the driving season. No issue in checking the points as part of that process.
Bruce Cunha

Nigel, I don't see how going EI eliminates the need for spares. You have just as much chance of breaking down with EI as with points. If you aren't carrying spare ignition parts no matter what type of ignition you have, then you will likely get towed one day. Electronics cannot be relied on 100% any more than points can. The difference being, points very rarely fail suddenly, where electronics usually do.

It sounds like you've had some really bad points setups. In reality they should be quite reliable. In hundreds of thousands of miles daily driving old cars, I've never had a points system fail suddenly. I did however, have a Luminition fail and have rescued several T-Types in caravans whose Pertronix failed in the middle of the road. Not to say EI can't work well or be reliable, they absolutely can. But points systems, in good order, and using quality parts, are very reliable. Hint: Don't use anything from a green Lucas box!

As for needing "a guy with masses of tuning experience" to run points, that should never be the case. It's a 2-minute adjustment once per year that even a child can do.

The girlfriend/wife thing makes me think about when we got our MGC. It had Luminition EI installed already. When I told the wife it had EI, she looked at me funny and said "you aren't going to leave that in there, are you"? :) I did. And it failed once due to no fault of its own, but also something that wouldn't have bothered a points setup.

(her daily driver is a Morris, which has been more reliable than her modern car that she rarely drives)
Steve Simmons

I think points systems got a bad name when the quality of the points dropped off from Lucas and Bosch here a while back
The last set of Bosch ones i bought didn't even have a contact on the end of the arm--not good
There were some point sets about here 4-5 years back that were only plated on the contacts and basically as soon as they lost their surface they were gone
The best points by far here are actually the cheapest, made by Fuelmiser, They're built well and actually line up and last forever
willy
William Revit

Steve,
each to their own but I've never understood the need to carry spares, it's more the want, and I don't. Prevention is better than cure in my book, fit a good reliable part then you don't need a spare.

Prepare yourself now, I don't even carry a spare tyre (wheel, plus brace and jack) just a foot pump and reliable pressure gauge, less weight and more boot space.

To me you'd need to tow a trailer full of spares to cover all the eventualities, if fact a trailer wouldn't be enough you'd need a spare of the same car, to really cover all eventualities.

On this BBS someone put because they had a fuel pump (probably one of those SUs with points, I use a Hardi electronic ) :) that let him down once that I he not only carried a spare but that it was fully plumbed in and on a divert switch to activate should the normal one play up or fail. It's like having a VW with a spare engine in the back. :)

As Willy has put the quality of many parts we get here is piss-poor including CB points and condensers (and rotors and caps). For decades I've not used them because I had to reset points at the roadside after a service because they'd closed down and in all the cars I've had it's been a fiddly awkward to get at job certainly more than two minutes. I prefer the zero minutes of not adjusting the electronic each year or ever.

As with CB points I think many igniter heads cause problems or fail because of sloppy installation of lack of care around them but not many are going to admit to that. Yes they are some that are hit and miss build but that is to be expected if tight-fisted classic owners insist on having the lowest priced cheap function parts available as they rarely use the vehicle and want to save the money to spend on bling (and again each to their own) but it drags the parts quality down for all of us.

I know I'm an old one out as I've only ever liked to drive my classics not tinker or fart about with them, necessary servicing and maintenance is an accepted chore to be reduced where appropriate. As for about the last 30 years I've used various classics as dailies, commuters, work, holidays, tours and club events I've already had enough roadside warrior repairs, or services rescues, to last me two lifetimes.

Interesting to hear your wife drives a Morris, if it's a Minor with A-series engine I can certainly recommend she try the CSI to see if she notices the improvements and record mpg gain, which is immediately lost as the improved performance is used more. :)
Nigel Atkins

"fit a good reliable part then you don't need a spare"

That I fully agree with. I daily drive my classics and reliability is my #1 priority. If I'm late to work, it costs the company a LOT of money. BUT... when I'm 1,000 miles from home on my TC there is no way you'll catch me without a few spare parts. Why get towed and wait for Moss to send supplies when I can replace a small part in 5 minutes and keep going. It doesn't matter how well you maintain your car, something can and eventually will go wrong, and I'm not the kind who is willing to be stuck on the side of the road because I refused to carry a small bag of spare parts.

By the way, the highest quality points and condensers are available right there in the UK, from Distributor Doctor. They are drop dead reliable and are the only ones made to the original factory design.

Like you, I greatly prefer driving to wrenching. I'm not a "tinkerer". I do the job right and hopefully never touch it again. My only maintenance is the occasional grease job, a tune-up once per year just to make sure everything is right (check plugs, points and valves) and checking fluids / oil changes. If the car is off the road for more than a day, it's depressing. I think tinkerers are often their own worst enemies when it comes to reliability.

No chance the wife would ever want or allow EI in her Morris. She loves driving old cars because they're old cars, and she trusts the reliability of that Morris more than her modern car (which rarely gets driven anymore). Modern technology in old cars doesn't interest her at all. Same with her MGAm which is pretty much bone stock. She had a Model T but that turned out to be TOO vintage so she made me sell it for a Healey. I had no idea what I was getting into when I got married.
Steve Simmons

Steve,
I've just lost my long post by clicking the wrong button, doh!

Basically, I always recommend the Dizzy Doc even though I don't need him or his items, and I'm pleased your wife is able to enjoy old cars without the need for a modern (but she does use modern oils, ect. and doesn't live in UK. :) )

I think basically you and I are on the same sheet but it'd be a boring world if we were all exactly the same.
Nigel Atkins

I have a mouse with buttons on the side, which makes it really fast and easy to move forward and back within web sites. Every now and then I bump the back button and lose something I've been working on. I feel your pain completely.
Steve Simmons

Nothing that clever or sophisticated I'm afraid, I think I hit delete history and couldn't get back to the unsubmitted post page. My hand moved faster than my brain but all were still going at glacial speeds.

In the old days of using these computers I used to hit the save button frequently but now I sometimes jump from one thing to another and forget to save or not close an item, only ever on a longer and/or involved bit of typing.

It's a bit like forgetting to take the paper towel out of the thermostat housing before refitting it and then wondering why the temp gauge isn't behaving as usual on the test drive.

Let me know when you want me to work on your cars. :)

Nigel Atkins

Well I seemed to open a can of worms here! Lots of good opinions and thoughts. I appreciate it! Somebody in the thread asked what I was trying to achieve by going electronic ignition. I have had several issues with the regulator, coil, condenser, and generator to name a few in the past. Basically all the electrical parts of the car and trying to get a good reliable charge. I just switched to a alternator, put in a new coil and was thinking the electrical ignition would be the next logical thing to do. I guess I am trying to create a system that is reliable and with little routine maintenance. Sounds like points are as good or better then electronic depending on who you listen to.

Thanks for the info guys!

Rich
Rich King TD 8732

The electrical system is simple and should be very reliable overall. If you have multiple components failing, then I would suspect that there is a grounding issue, or unstable / incorrect voltage being sent through. I think my first project would be to remove and clean every grounding point on the car, including the mounting for electrical items like the starter. I would do this before installing any electronics, as they are not so forgiving of such things as mechanical devices are.
Steve Simmons

So I am assuming that since you converted to an Alternator, you are not using the original regulator and the car is now negative ground.

If you go electronic, that is an important detail. (ask me how I know).
Bruce Cunha

It was a ground up restoration, not saying there is not a grounding issue but I highly doubt that. Bruce I am not using the original regulator for the purpose of a regulator. It is simply an electrical strip now. And the car is positive ground still with a positive ground alternator.
Rich King TD 8732

Rich,
don't forget with CB points (and condenser) against electronic head you are only comparing the top internal bits of the dissy it still leaves possibly a very sloppy bottom mechanical half of the dissy. You could service//repair the bottom half of the dissy too - or go for fit and forget long term reliability and non-adjustment of a fully electronic dissy.

No fiddling or farting around with points, once a year or if they decide to adjust themselves shortly after you've reset them. Obviously potentially you will miss looking like a warrior at the roadside making repairs to miraculously have an old car running again but you can just pull over to the side of the road, lift the bonnet and pretend if you're looking for admiration, or just a chat with a passerby. :)

Also with the dissy you need good quality well made and reliable rotor arm and cap (as well as same for CB points of course).

After this good quality HT leads in good condition and of course good quality spark plugs in good condition. (Often you may be able to increase the spark plug gap a bit with electronic to get more bang for your buck.)

Obviously you do need to get the correct electronic parts for your installation.

The choice may depend on your ratio of driving the car to working on the car, personally I only enjoy driving the car and very little else but I know many love a good tinker and some rarely and very rarely drive the car. I like to drive the car and get its performance - mpg and hp.

Some have a second, third, tenth, twentieth car(s) that don't turn a wheel in months or years which seems a waste to me but each to their own, those may well decide to stay with points.
Nigel Atkins

I don't carry a spare distributor just the top plate. Until recently the TD & TF were used regularly in the UK and for trips (2500 miles) in Euroep and not once did we have distributor problems. For these long trips we carry spares so that if their is a failure we can repair them by the roadside. Ever tried getting an MG part in the Massif Central - years ago it hard enough to get an alternator for our Ford Zodiac in Nice.

Why stop at the ignition. Why not fit an injection system, a five or six speed gearbox and what about power steering? Morgans now fit air conditioning - why not MGs?

Has anyone fitted an automatic transmission and a small block V8 in their TD or TF with suitable restraints to the rear axle? I am told such a conversion makes the car go like a scalded cat but is it an MG or a hot rod?

How far do we go with these type of changes before we don't have an old but good car? Old cars have characteristics which is why we have them.
R J Marshall

Imagine not having to carry spares because what you have fitted is reliable.

Fitting the fully electronic dissy doesn't alter the car feel other than it's potentially better functioning than an old worn part, and it's fit and forget no fiddling about with.

Taking the logic of keeping an old car old but going in the other direction you wouldn't bother replacing parts even if they're worn and not functioning efficiently or even properly.

Do you reject any improvements to the car that are not from the 1950s, use NOS monograde oil instead of modern and improved oils, reject petrol with cleaning additives, crossplys only.

Each to their own.
Nigel Atkins

"Imagine not having to carry spares because what you have fitted is reliable."

What I have fitted is reliable, and there are no electronics. I'd put the reliability of my TC up against any T-Type in the world.

I have to admit, it's a little disheartening to see a lack of faith in reliability of these cars. I drive my old cars more than 99.9% of people, because it's all I own. I just rebuilt the head on my BGT because I wore it out, and last night did a full detail to celebrate another 100,000 miles on the car. It has never suffered a points-related issue. In fact the only real issue in all those years was a faulty brand new fuel pump, which I installed against my own rule of not replacing a functioning part. The old one went back in (that was 20K miles ago). In all honesty, I've seen far more dead Pertronix than points.

As far as my TC is concerned, it has suffered only one "breakdown" which was no fault of the car. On my first big trip many years ago, I left a portion of the wiring harness un-clipped and it wore through the insulation. The resulting short was patched with a small piece of wire and we were on our way. Many tens of thousands of hard miles and several sets of tires later, that remains the sole issue.

If one wants electronics then that's fine, but don't do it assuming it will somehow make the car more reliable. 90% of unreliability issues have nothing to do with the design, but rather age and corrosion. And these issues can wreak havoc on any component, modern or vintage.
Steve Simmons

I'm pleased RJ and his car are capable of doing 2,500 mile trips, unless it was over two weeks I couldn't now, I like driving but I also like plenty of food, sleep and rest.

Steve,
you don't have to imagine then, you're there!

Your cars are more reliable because you use them so regularly and frequently.

It's perfectly possible to have a reliable points based dissy set, and it'll even keep reasonable in spec for a few years, subject to adjusting and cleaning/lubing.

I've suffered many faults on my cars and many were from the piss-poor quality of too-lower priced new parts, that many tight-fisted classic owners insists on buying.

You only have to look in the Archives of this BBS going back years to see the unreliability of new parts like rotor arms, condensers, CB points (and the cheap plugs and leads).

I don't favour the cheap electronic igniters but they're so cheap you could buy two and keep one in the boot for just in case, not that I favour carrying any spares.

I've never had a problem with any of the classics I installed electronic ignition in - but I did have to do roadside warrioring with points that were fitted at a service - double lot of having a dog and barking myself. I've had enough stoppages to last me at least two-lifetimes so I've done my bit for that part of ownership and want reliability and no stoppages.

Even you put you carry spares when you're far from home.

From what I've seen on the BBS and other places I feel many times, not all, when there have been problems with igniter heads it seems to have been because of poor installation or later carelessness.

I think it's fantastic you use your T so much (possibly be a bit more of a challenge over here with today's British suppliers parts and British weather).

There's no problem with having different views, opinions, ideas and experiences, whatever works best for the individual is fine, I'll take anything that keeps the essence of the car so that it can be used regularly now, comfortably, and in a spirited way for me, maintain good performance (mpg/hp) - and for me carry the minimum amount of spares.
Nigel Atkins

- "Your cars are more reliable because you use them so regularly and frequently."

I certainly agree that regular use makes a car far more reliable than occasional use. Especially with mechanical, rubber and cork parts. I think a lot of classic car owners think backwards on this, like driving the car will wear it out faster and make it break down. I think most on this forum do realize that a lack of use wears things much faster (mileage, not time) and causes all sorts of problems.

- "Even you put you carry spares when you're far from home."

Indeed, but not because I fear the car will break down. I carry small spares just because any car can break down, even brand new ones. But with a brand new car you can't fix it yourself anyway, and there is always a dealer or repair shop close by. So there's no reason to carry spares. But with an old car, parts and repair facilities are not always easy to come by. So when/if the car does have a problem, I want to be prepared. A very wise man I was in a T-Type caravan with while crossing the American West once told me, "Everyone gets their turn to stop the caravan eventually". I took that to heart, and one day even his car, renowned for its reliability, quit running while we were traveling up the CA coast. It was a 70-year-old build-up of crud on the fuel tank intake that finally starved it.
Steve Simmons

Tyres are a hobby-horse of mine, many classic owners have tyres (tires) with loads of tread on them but hard from lack of use and/or age. The tyres, and the car's, efficiency and even safety is diminished as tyres, apart from being a very complicated components, have great input to braking, steering, road holding, ride comfort and noise.

As I'm on (modern) summer tyres and for various reasons the car hasn't seen much use for quite a while now I notice that my 5 year-old tyres seen to have lost their performance. Especially noticeable as summer tyres lose their efficiency anyway at 10C and below and the last few runs have been around or below that now.

I like to service overhaul/clean & lube/repair/replace parts and components before they lose too much efficiency or fail but that's always something of a guess and often has to be delayed because you can't trust the modern made new parts and the old parts can be be so used and abused or refurbished so many times at unknown quality of work and previous use and abuse.

You must bear in mind the UK was a minority marketplace compared to USA. Sheer quantity often gives you access to greater volumes, and lower prices (but never low enough for some).

I'll drop this in whilst I remembered, I've only been in a TD once, as a passenger, on a Yorkshire tour IIRC, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well the car went, apparently it once belonged to Archie Scott-Brown, who IIRC raced it.


Nigel Atkins

Although off topic, that's good advise on tires. They can look brand new but be a ticking time bomb. Bias Ply are not so much of a worry as radials though. Bias Ply just get old and hard, but don't seem to fly apart the way radials do. I have one car with 60 year old tires on it. There are chunks of rubber falling off of the casing, but they still hold 20 PSI without issue. No, I don't actually drive on them, just storage!

The advantage of the narrow TC tires is that if you drive a lot, you can actually wear them out before they age out. So at least you feel better about throwing them away after only a few years.
Steve Simmons

This thread was discussed between 16/11/2020 and 27/11/2020

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.