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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Emergency Fuel Pump

Threads about fuel pump failures can show some ugly situations. There's an emergency backup system that you might want to think about. Dig out your TSO CD-ROM, or your back issues, for the February 2000 TSO. Turn to Don Lawson's Technical Topics section on page 26 and read the article entitled "Emergency Fuel Pump by Stuart Locke".

Stuart shows how to use a simple rubber stopper, some tubing and a blood pressure bulb-pump to put together a very elemental system can get you safely off of the road.
It's elegant in its simplicity and works great.
Bud Krueger

I was lucky enough to inherit a MKII. Unfortunately it doesn't have the MKII engine or anything but did have the dual fuel lines from the tank. I have 2 pumps but only 1 at a time is connected to the carby's. If one goes down it's about 2 minutes to hook up the other. I'll trade them off regularly just to make sure everything works and is clear.
l rutt

I've told this story before, but on my first date with my wife in 1978 the pump when out on my 1966 midget. I was able to drive it 20 miles by blowing in the filler hole. I got high as a kite off the fumes and it probably took 10 years off my life but it works. Now I carry an extra set of points and a finger nail file. By the way we've been married 25 years. If you can't be handsome you might as well be handy.
N. Oakley

Hi:
I remember running a TD in a mountain rally years back when the fuel pump gave out. We noticed that it would click once when the ignition was turned off and on. We rigged one of the spot light switches up to the wire that powered the fuel pump. By manually switching the pump off and on we were able to complete that section of the rally. We repaired the pump at the rest stop that night and finished the rally, albeit in close to last place. Ah, such is the fun of youth.
Godspeed in Safety Fast
Jc
John Crawley

I carry the Stewart Locke Emergency Fuel Pump in my TF, I have had to use it once and loan it to another TF while on a tour to get him 100 miles to the next stop.

It woks great, and is so simple. It just pressurizes the gas tank. About 2 lbs/sq.in. does it (just a few pumps of the bulb occasionally as you drive, after you pomp it up)

Don Harmer

I carry an Emergency Fuel Pump in my TF, along with some clip leads for dc and some clear fuel line. My pump on the TF is installed with LUCAS bullet connections above the rear axle and I run a clear (NAPA) filter back there. Never had to replace my pump...but have used this several times to help others that have had failed pumps, and quite a few times to transfer fuel when out! Much nicer than the "taste" of petrol through a syphon hose!
Curious about what Don said: "It just pressurizes the gas tank" ...isn't the tank on your TF "vented" ...if memory servers me I think the tank on my TF has a vent in the cap...or are just "sealing" the filler and leaving the cap open?
Cheers,
David 55 TF 1500 #7427
David Sheward

Rather reminiscent of the early days of racing, when part of the riding mechanic's job was to keep the pressure in the fuel tank pumped up with a hand pump. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

David, the rubber stopper seals the tank at the filler. The pump then forces air into the tank through the tube in the stopper. It's this pressurized air that pushes the fuel out of the tank.
Bud Krueger


Don Harmer mentioned that he had used his and loaned it, It diffiitely works. We gave one to each regestrant to our gathering about 6 years ago so all of our Ts plus many others should have one on board.
One of the last projects our own beloved Jim Holcombe did the major work on

Ellis
Ellis Carlton

I have neither the TSO disk or the Feb. 2000 issue, so does anyone out there have a link to any club or other site where it may be posted?

TIA

Larry
L Karpman

Larry,

Members can buy back copies of the TSO for $5/pop, from Gene Fodor, 174 London Road, South Hero VT, 05486-4920. The CDs are still available for $99 from the The NEMGT Register, Box 1957, Cary, NC 27512-1957.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Thanks Gordon, I forgot all about the back issue sales. DUH!

Larry
L Karpman

Larry - You have e-mail(again). Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

The Original article by Stewart Locke on the "armstrong" Emergency fuel pump appeared in Octagon Topics, Vol. 26, No. 11, Nov. 1999.

A reprint was in mgTalk, Vol. 25, No. 12. Dec. 1999 the newsletter of the Southeastern MG T Register.

I have a pdf copy available. if you want a copy email me at
mgtalk.editor at gmail dot com.

Don H.
Don Harmer

Thanks Don, I have already been sent one.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Don, I'd appreciate receiving a copy from you. I'd like to post it on Ttalk to share it. The Southeastern folks are good about sharing things.

BTW, in my forthcoming trip to Texas in May I'll be stopping to see my daughter in Marrieta. Maybe I can motor on by and say hello.
Bud Krueger

Bud,

See your email

I would be delighted to see you on your visit to Marietta.

When are you making the trip?

Don H.
Don Harmer

Been playing around with the Emergency Fuel Pump bit. Thanks to Don Harmer you can view the original article at
http://www.ttalk.info/LockePump.htm.

I'm gathering up a list of part sources. Should be on Ttalk shortly. Here's my deluxe version with gauge.


Bud Krueger

Hey Bud, here's a picture of the "Economy" model I just built :-) I'll be interested to see your source for the inline gauge.

Cheers

Larry


L Karpman

Bud - All you need is a cuff and you can take your blood pressure while keeping the fuel flowing to the engine. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Shucks, Dave, I do have all of the parts. The bulb and gauge came from a complete BP tester that I bought at CVS for $16.99. It even came with a stethoscope.

Interesting to note that the gauge scale is ideal for our use since 1 psi=51.7 mm Hg.
Bud Krueger

Or you could adapt an air mattress foot pump to the hose instead of the hand bulb, and place on the floor by the clutch ;^)

or- run a hose from the spare tire through a 2 psi regulator to the tank plug ;^)



D C Congleton

I really, really like this!

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Bud,
I guess you could extended hose from the stethoscope and mount the pickup on the fuel pump,,,,, this would let you hear the ticking from the fuel pump if it decides to finally work again, and then you or your passenger can stop pumping the bulb !!

SPW
Steve Wincze

You're right, Dave. This is a good bit of brain-storming. Dallas' idea about the spare tire is intriguing. Let's see now, PV=NRT says that a spare tire at 25 psi should .... send me off to estimate the volume of air in the spare and the volume of the fuel tank.

Another avenue that I'm pursuing is the automatic blood pressure tester where the pump is battery operated.

I'm about to head up to the garage and see how much pumping it takes to get pressure in the tank.
Bud Krueger

Wow, I'm impressed! Just came back from the garage. My fuel measuring stick showed just over 8 gallons left in the tank. Looked at my watch and started pumping. Didn't expect to see much and hoped my hand would hold up. Sonuvagun -- the needle started moving. After 60 seconds of pumping the gauge showed 76 mm Hg, about 1.5 psi. Took a 30 second break and went at it for another 60 seconds. See the results for yourself: 134 mm Hg, about 2.6 psi.

The spare tire is about 16 in. i.d. and 25 in. o.d. with a width of about 6 inches. This would seem to be something on the order of 1820 cubic inches of air at a pressure of about 25 psi. Taking the capacity of the TD fuel tank to be 15 US gallons that's about 3,465 cubic inches. Without using a regulator, i.e., just connecting the spare to the tank, you would still have about 8 psi left after emptying the tank. Using a 2 psi regulator you'd go through about 4 tankfulls of petrol before the tire was empty.

Anybody know where to find an inexpensive 2 psi regulator?


Bud Krueger

Bud,

A low pressure regulator used to be quite common on pneumatic process controllers. I know Foxboro used to make on that went from .25 psi to about 5 psi. I think F-P also made one.

Pneumatic process controls have been dinasaurs for 30 years - then electronic 4-20 ma, today digital.

The only place that you might find one is in a process that is contolling explosive gasses, where NEMA precludes anything except pneumatic (Class I, Group D).

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Bud try an automotive paint supplier-, or maybe even Harbor Freight for a small regulator. The new HVLP
(high volume low pressure) paint systems work off low pressure.
I have also seen some small regulators that go on the clip on the belt that regulate the air pressure near the gun.

Incidentally Gord I graduated from Foxboro's Instrument Engineering Course in my distant past- you should be referring to the hand bulb system as a spignomanometer.;^)

Dallas
D C Congleton

How about this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=32905

Or this

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36797

Orf this

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90590

Larry
L Karpman

Okay, it's Friday night and time to be silly. How about this:

It's tiny, costs $5, and runs on two D batteries.

Azoo Battery Air Pump
* Powerful, high-quality battery-operated air pump
* Portable and inexpensive multipurpose aeration device
* Oxygenates water when transporting fish or during emergencies

Now if the power fails, your aquarium won't! The Azoo Battery Air Pump is a powerful, inexpensive backup aeration system that offers peace of mind in the event of an emergency. Provides vital oxygen to aquarium inhabitants and features an On/Off switch to maintain battery life. Includes a 13-1/4" airline and airstone. Requires two D-cell batteries (not included). Also great to use when transporting fish.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3669+3693&pcatid=3693

Search for aquarium air pump, 12 volt air pump, battery air pump, or similar combinations and we can take this thread in an all new direction!

Larry



Larry Shoer

You may need to cut and paste the link I gave into your browser address field...

Larry
Larry Shoer

Larry K. -- we need to be quite careful about the pressure. The 25 'ish psi of the spare would raise havoc with the carburetion.

Larry S. -- I need to massage that site, but you're onto something. I've ordered one.

I'll bet David D. could tell us something about the upper limits of air/fuel pressure.
Bud Krueger

OK Bud, are you saying these regulators regulate flow and not pressure?

Larry
L Karpman

If you want to avoid shipping charges, check your local PetSmart. They have this one:

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2754069

Larry
L Karpman

Bud,

Add eBay item number 110314043942, “ADJUSTABLE BOOST PRESSURE SWITCH HOBBS WATER INJECTION,” to the package (stopper, tubing, battery powered air pump) and you have a very small assembly you can press on the top of your tank and it will cycle the air pump to maintain air pressure in the system.

Small pressure switch, adjustable from 1-25 PSI.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm38.l1313%26_nkw%3D110314043942%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&item=110314043942&_rdc=1&viewitem=

Larry



Larry Shoer

Bud - The Low pressure pumps used on the TD and early TF are 1.5psi. In the real world the carburetors will handle 4psi (actually 3.8psi from a high pressure pump meant for the later TFs. anything above that start getting pretty iffy.

Gentlemen - this exercise if creative thinking is quite fascinating, but I think that you all are coming full circle. Really, aquarium air pumps, regulators, etc., you would be ahead of the game to go with a low pressure Facet pump mounted back by the fuel tank and power wired through a switch that can switch the primary pump or the backup pump in as needed. Seems that I read about that somewhere - simpe and very effective. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

These are waay too technical for me. But I did once run the TF engine by spraying aerostart across the carburettor intakes. Of course this would be difficult to do whilst actually driving the car. So all I would need would be a mounting bracket for the can and a remote trigger yes??
I could probably remove the fuel tank alltogether and save weight!

Cheers,
Matthew.
Matthew Magilton

OK, Bud and Gord- one last suggestion for a powerless, no diaphragms, points, or moving parts, and doesn't require you or the passenger to pump anything ;^), and is more fun than the simple way of buying a store-bought back-up pump.

You install on your gas cap an air scoop with a 90 degree bend into the driver side airstream. The air scoop needs an venturi in it for a slight boost and to provide a little back pressure. You would have to be underway for effect, but as long as you didn't idle away the fuel in the float bowls until the next boost you would be ok. :^)

Relay DuBois- this is all in fun-

Dallas

D C Congleton

Hey, Dave. I think we may have the first ever intersection of an MG and a Rube Goldberg creation! Don't stop me now--I'm looking for solar cells or a pinwheel powered generator for the aquarium pump! Then what's next....hmmmm.

(P.S. I do have a Lawrie Rhoads rebuilt spare fuel pump.)

Larry
Larry Shoer

You're right, Dave D., but this is fun. And much simpler to implement.

Larry K. -- thanks for the PetsMart lead. And, yes, they do regulate flow, not pressure. Keep in mind that the flow rate is determined by the car's mpg and speed. At 40 mph at 25 mpg that's 1.6 gallons/hr, = 0.21 cu. ft./hr = .0035 cfm. Those regulators can't handle that.
Bud Krueger

Matthew,
Why not have another can hooked up to your spray system, but instead of "aerostart", fill it with Nitrous Oxide for a little exra boost !!!!

SPW
Steve Wincze

Dave D,
You are sooo correct about the Facet Pump mounted in line,,, simple and efficient,,, but I would like to have one of the original Locke designs on board just in case a TD/TF we might be traveling with has a fuel pump problem, and doesn't have either...

SPW
Steve Wincze

"Why not have another can hooked up to your spray system, but instead of "aerostart", fill it with Nitrous Oxide for a little exra boost !!!!"

Now this has merit, if the car finally died completely, you cold snort the nitrous oxide and sit on th eside of the road laughing.

"but I would like to have one of the original Locke designs on board just in case a TD/TF we might be traveling with has a fuel pump problem, and doesn't have either..."

There is one further method that no one has thought of - use the old Model T system. Since the fuel pumps all use check valves in them, fuel will flow through the pumps as long as it is lower than the fuel tank (just ask anyone who has changed a pump on a MGB), one only has to make sure that the front of the car is always lower than the back. This can be accomplished by always driving down hill when going forward and backing up and hills that are necessary to climb - or - take a page from the old hot rodders and install enormously big tires on the back of the car to keep the fuel tank above the level of the carburetors :)) Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

OK, the local PetSmart does not carry the battery pump. Maybe it's just an Internet product for them. But a tropical fish store nearby did. It's the same as the PetSmart pump, but more expensive ($11.99). Oh well, I'd have spent the difference on shipping.

Here's a pic of the latest setup (no pressure gauge yet :-) Shown also is the new "backup" squeeze bulb, in case the "emergency" pump fails :-) I guess I'll need a backup to the squeeze bulb, in case that fails too :-)

Realizing that much of this is great fun in addition to a pretty good idea, it is nice to not have to squeeze a bulb for 2 minutes to get the pressure up, just to get off the road to a safe place to install my Lawrie Rhoads rebuilt/Dave DuBois modified fuel pump I carry as a spare.

Now, because I have all of this available, there is no doubt that my pump will only quit while parked in a safe place, under a shade tree, on a beautiful Spring day :-)

Cheers

Larry


L Karpman

Here's a followup for which I need some advice.

I tested the battery air pump I bought, with an inline pressure gauge. The gauge is 0-60 and it's hard to read 1 or 2 psi on it. Nevertheless, after 3 minutes of pumping, it showed 1.5 psi (probably inaccurate) and I smelled fuel. I figured, ok it's overflowing out the carb overflow tubes (my ticklers are sealed).

However, it was not. It was coming out of the top of a glass bowl type fuel filter that is in line just before the fuel pump (car came this way). This bowl has never leaked before. My question is, was it not flowing thru the fuel pump to the float bowls and out of the overflow tubes because it was already overflowing prior to the pump? Or, is there another issue I should be aware of? I believe the former is correct, but want to hear what the experts say :-)

In either case I have wanted to replace this glass bowl filter with a solid one or none at all, because I just don't like a bowl full of fuel in my engine bay.

A picture of it is below, so I need to determine the fitting size I need on a new filter. Any help appreciated.


L Karpman

Larry - Just remove the filter in it's entirety, it is a source of a potential clog on the inlet side of the pump, which in turn can damage the pump if power is left on while troubleshooting. There is already a filter screen in the tank and in the pump that will stop rock and small birds. Anything smaller will pass through the filters, pump and settle out in the carburetor float bowl or pass on through the jet. A high efficiency filter will trap the small rust particles and clog, causing the fuel pump to stall in a current on condition and if the power is left on, will burn out the internal swamping resistor. Once the swamping resistor is burned out the arc suppression circuit is compromised and the points will burn very quickly as will any subsequent points used as replacement. If the pump is a new all electronic pump, a burned out swamping resistor will completely disable the pump and the constant current will like likely burn up the circuit card on the all electronic pump and in the pumps that I modify.

The fittings on the filter pictured are 1/4 BSP compression fittings, the same as on the pump. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Thanks Dave, I will remove it. However, as the filter says, "Made in USA" on top, are you certain it's a BSP thread? I was thinking maybe 3/8 NPT, but I'm not sure.

In any case I need to remove the filter and join the tubing together, as I don't think the tubing from the tank is long enough on its own to reach the filter inlet. So, any idea of what type connector is needed (thread size to be determined) to join the two male fittings together, once the filter is removed?

TIA

Larry
L Karpman

Larry, it appears that the extra filter you have has 1/4 inch NPT threads, with a male bushing in each side. When you remove it, remove the male bushings, and then thread them into each end of a female 1/4 inch NPT pipe coupling. These are available in brass, and it will sorta blend in.
I think the line from the tank will bend in enough toward the pump to do this.

Dallas
D C Congleton

Thanks Dallas. The reason I mentioned 3/8 NPT is that 3/8 is the diameter of the threaded hole in the female threaded opening of the filter top. Guess I'll buy a 1/4 and 3/8 NPT and see which fits.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Larry - A 1/4 BSP or NP have a diameter of roughly 3/8 diameter - the sated size is the size of the ID of the pipe (or was when the standard was set way back when). The thread on the filter head itself may be NP or NPT, but the thread of the compression portion of the fitting that the fuel line fits into is BSP (it's the same fitting that is on the fuel pump inlet and outlet). Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Turns out the fitting is 1/8" NPT. Quick trip to the Ace Hardware and Bob's your uncle, were done :-)(see pic)

Thanks Dave and Dallas for your advice.

Cheers

Larry


L Karpman

A word of caution. Even at these low pressures, i.e., 1 to 2 psi, the fumes that are present when you open the release valve of the sphygmomanometer bulb are highly flammable. Please be careful.
Bud Krueger

Driving criteria finally was met, i.e., temperature above 40F (just barely), dry roads and sunshine. Took a spin over to Paul Hinchcliffe's to give him a copy of Bud's Deluxe Emergency Fuel Pump (http://www.ttalk.info/EmergencyPumpII.htm). Drove home using the Deluxe after pumping it up to 100 mm/Hg. After the 27.5 mile trip the gauge was still showing about 65 mm/Hg and Lazarus was running fine.

Spotted something else, the sphygmomanometer gauge has a clip on its back that clamps very nicely onto the chrome strip on the bottom of the dash.


Bud Krueger


You could make the pump self-pressurizing while driving by doing something like those built-in chains: Put a connector on the bulb hose that can twist, then attach the bulb to the face of one of your tires...

Or put it on your seat, sit on it, and make sure you hit all of the bumps in the road.
Scott Linn

Bud - You are supposed to have a riding mechanic in that passenger seat to pump the pressure up ;) Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Great Bud!

If anyone needs a cheap sphygmomanometer gauge go this site. They have over 400 available.

http://cgi.ebay.com ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=250386882024

(you may need to cut and paste in your browser)

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Sorry, try this address (copy and paste in your browser):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=250386882024

Larry
L Karpman

This thread was discussed between 24/02/2009 and 13/03/2009

MG TD TF 1500 index

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