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MG TD TF 1500 - Engine Sump Capacity

My brain must be completely fried, so what is the amount of oil I add on change when changing the oil,and filter on the TD. Workshop manual calls for 12.6 US pints (6.3 quarts)but doesn't state with or without filter change. Local shop used to change for me, but I forgot the instructions I gave them, and they are no longer there.
L Karpman

Unless the car has its original block, sump or block/sump combination there is no simple answer to this very good question. I've looked in the archive seeking a definitive answer but couldn't find one. What is needed is a chart listing the original 1250 & 1500 blocks & sumps & XPAG's fitted from other cars, say from the Wolsley 444, with the list of finned & un-finned sumps that could have been fitted & some clear way of identifying them, so that the correct quantity of oil could then be added. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I am certain I have the right dipstick because I have checked all the various part numbers. If I forget I know it is at least 5 cans just like my other new cars, so I add 5 and after checking dipstick level it lets me know better if the engine needs a little more.
D Peltier

I believe I have the right dipstick as well. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Add until full on stick. Note the amount. Start car and shut down after a warm up and add more til full on the stick. Make note add the two amounts together and then you'll know what you need in the future
W. A. Chasser

I did this some time ago. might help.

Peter Dahlquist

From an old thread (9Aug2008):
******************
A few years ago I found myself wondering about the relationship between the oil level vs. dipstick readings. I slipped a piece of wooden dowel down the dipstick tube and measured the height of the oil after each quart was poured in. Below is what I found. The sump is a late, finned one.



TD Dipstick Oil Level vs. Indication
Note: Dipstick is Part # 24407
Refer to W.M. Fig. P.1 on Page P.1

Quarts Height (in.) Dipstick Indication
1 5/8 None Above sump bottom
2 1.25 None -do-
3 1.75 None -do-
4 2.5 None -do-
5 3.25 Empty mark
6 4 ~2/3 Between H & A
6.5 ~3/4 At L
7 Full After engine run
7 Full + At U after sitting

*****************
Peter, I can't figure out why yours would be full at only 5.5 US quarts. I found that 5 quarts just reaches the Empty mark.

It's unclear to me as to where the optimum level of the oil is in regards to crank throws and sump seals. Bud
Bud Krueger

Make sure that the dipstick tube is fully bottomed out in the casting. If the engine has been apart it may have been removed and when replaced not fully seated in the casting.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Dave, that issue was brought up in earlier threads. Try Archive checking for 'dipstick'. Bud
Bud Krueger

Probably by me, but then nearly everything on here has been covered in previous threads. I know that when I filled my xpag with engine oil for the first time, I checked with various reference on what the capacity should be for a TF with finned sump, and measured the amount I put in, and double checked against the dipstick. What was in the WSM was correct for my engine and showed full on the dipstick - 6litres.
Dave H
Dave Hill

That's 12.6 US pints. The capacity of the oil filter is small and will only be slightly noticeable on the dipstick and inconsequential. I think its additional, so call it 13 US pints with the oil filter.
Dave H
Dave Hill

This from a very old issue of TSO.

"ENGINE OIL LEVEL PROBLEMS

Several TD owners have written to complain that filling their sumps to the "full" mark on the dipstick requires more oil than is specified in the manual. In some cases this might be due to incorrect dipstick guide tubes, as explained in Service lnformation Sheet #86: "It has been found that on certain M.G. midget (Series TD) engines prior to Engine No. XPAG/TD/10900 and on M.G. 1% Litre (Series Y) engines previous to Engine No. XPAG/SC/17020, an incorrect dipstick guide tube may have been fitted, which is '/4 inch longer than the correct guide tube (Part No. 24408). This would of course give a false indication of the level and raise the effective oil level 'A inch above the correct position. In the majority of cases this will cause no harm, particularly if the level is kept below the "Full" mark, but should the sump be filled above the "Full" mark there is the possibility of the crank throws dipping in the oil and producing excessive lubrica- tion of the cylinders, etc. The correct length of the dipstick guide is 136 mm. If it is necessary to shorten the tube or fit a new one, it is easily removed from the block in which it is a press fit, by twisting it with suitable grips while pulling it out." In other cases the problem can be due to the use of the wrong dipstick. No dipstick guide tube was used on TB, TC and very early TD versions of the XPAG engine. On these engines a fairly short dipstick, measuring about 8" from tip to seat, inserts directly into a hole in the crankcase. A longer dipstick, measuring about 12" from tip to seat, is required for later engines with guide tubes. The use of the early-type short dipstick in these later engines will obviously result in an oil level which is much too high"

Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

It seems that the variables are:

The length of the dipstick tube.
The length of the dipstick itself.
The different capacity of the finned & un-finned sumps.

Any of these, or a combination of some, or all, of these could/would lead to inaccuracies. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Reference my feb. sketch post above. I measure 4.5 " installed height. Peter, just above, posts tube should be 136 mm or 5 3/8" long. Assume that is installed. So my "full mark" would be 7/8" too low. That would account for my 5.5 quarts. Appears I am a quart low at the full mark? I calculated roughly calculate cubic inces without inside radii and guessed at wall thickness.

So would be nice to know, Peter,
if the 136 mm is installed or actual length of the tube. Is my 4.5 measured length from flat on the block correct?

Peter 54 TF
Peter Dahlquist

My answer to your question would be only be an assumption Peter. It does appear that there have been issues associated with ensuring the correct quantity for some time, in some cases going way back to an installation error in relation to the dipstick tube. When this thread began I was unaware of the factory installing the incorrect dipstick tube in some engines. By posting the TSO article I'd hoped that someone more knowledgeable than I could respond & shed a little more light. Maybe Tom Lange or someone who has pulled apart quite a few of these blocks may be able to measure the two different sizes of dipstick tube. I agree Peter that it would be nice to know as this would get us all a little closer to answering the 'how much oil?' question. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Tom you have mail. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Tom Lange was unable to assist. Is anyone able to answer Peter Dahlquist's question re measuring the size of the dipstick guide tube? The following is from the TSO ENGINE OIL LEVEL PROBLEMS article quoted above, alerting TD owners that an incorrect dipstick guide tube may have been fitted at the factory..

"an incorrect dipstick guide tube may have been fitted, which is 1/4 inch longer than the correct guide tube (Part No. 24408). This would of course give a false indication of the level and raise the effective oil level 'A inch (?) above the correct position."

Unclear what the ('A inch) means? As suggested above any or all combinations of the two dipsticks, the two dipstick tubes & at least two different sized sumps would make answering the "How much oil is the correct amount?" question really difficult, due to the factory error, the fact that sumps may have been changed over time & the ease of fitting the incorrect dipstick.. I for one would really like to know.

Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Maybe this helps ????

Nick Herwegh

and this...

Nick Herwegh

and finally this....
At least you now know what "A"is.....;^)
Cheers,

Nick (TD3232)

Nick Herwegh

For my fellow Americans 111 mm is 4.37 inches.

Tim
TD12524
TW Burchfield

Many thanks, Nick. Bud
Bud Krueger

Excellent Nick. What was missing from the text in the TSO article was the illustration. This makes it clear where the measurement was taken from. The two other pieces of information are that Service Information Sheet #86 was issued in October 1951 (which presumably means that the problem didn't exist on TD's made after that date) & that the incorrect guide tube raised the level of the oil in the sump by 1/2". I don't know how to determine just how that volume translates into a quantity of oil. SIS #86 suggests that there MAY still be some TD's on the road today, made between the date when the dipstick tube was first introduced on the TD & October 1951, that still carry the incorrect dipstick tube. Although the the SIS does identify the engine number (XPAG TD 10,900) when the problem was detected, it does not attempt to quantify the number of engines affected. The next step would be to ascertain exactly when, (date/engine number), that the TD dipstick was introduced so that current owners of those cars can check the tube length for themselves.

The following additional information was provided by the author of the TSO article:

"In other cases the problem can be due to the use of the wrong dipstick. No dipstick guide tube was used on TB, TC and very early TD versions of the XPAG engine. On these engines a fairly short dipstick, measuring about 8" from tip to seat, inserts directly into a hole in the crankcase. A longer dipstick, measuring about 12" from tip to seat, is required for later engines with guide tubes. The use of the early-type short dipstick in these later engines will obviously result in an oil level which is much too high". The source of this information was not quoted in the TSO article.

Although not impossible, it does seem unlikely that a short dipstick would have ever been fitted to a later engine, as the volume of oil required surely would have raised a query or two? Of course the other big variable in all of this is the sump itself. There are still some questions to be answered. Cheers
Peter TD 5801


P Hehir

Thank you everybody. It is good to have data.
And my numbers in my Feb sketch are reasonably close. However my calculation of 5.5 US quarts is in question I guess. When I change the oil I dump in a standard 5 quart plastic container of Castrol GTX. That leaves oil below the "full" mark (1/4 inch). I would guess another quart could be accounted for in the filter, my approximating the wall thickness of the sump and the inside radii and the 1/4" below full. So today I'm pretty confident.
Again thanks to all.

Peter 54 TF
Peter Dahlquist

I just found this in my engine file.
Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

This thread was discussed between 11/02/2017 and 17/03/2017

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.