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MG TD TF 1500 - Evan... car numbers?

Glanced at my body numbers the other day... as our cars are only 46 apart, how do the others compare?

TD27667 - XPAG/TD2/27971
Body Type: 22381
Body # 26915/4899

I assume yours was at the end of the assembly line while mine was rolling on to it....? Thats pretty neat?
gordon lawson TD 27667

I wonder if our cars came across the pond together?

Another interesting thing, your engine number is 304 higher than your car number. My engine number (27935) is 314 higher than my car number. It looks like the pulled 10 engines off the line for other purposes in the span of 46 cars!


Evan Ford - TD 27621

As Abingdon were assembling approx. 40 TD's a day they COULD have been together on the assembly line. But they are surely not more than one day in production apart from each other. Gordon, are you sure that your body number indeed is 26915/4899 ???
I'm asking because I,m doing a small piece of research on body numbers as this seems to be a very controversial subject among TD enthusiasts. Clausager states that the first number is a BATCH number (logical because you would produce a batch of red cars, a batch of green cars etc.) the second number would be the real body number (CAN be possible because I found this on a label attached to a piece of upholstery and Bud Krueger has found it in the wooden sill of his TD) So far I have "collected" fourteen different TD's with their respective chassis and body numbers (quite easy: there are a lot of them on ebay !)but so far didn't find any identical batch number (??!!). Maybe I just have to find more numbers. Anyway, a car with such a high chassis number SHOULD have a body number like 26915/94899 ....??? If you're correct the puzzle would be even more complex...8^)
I think the reason that the engine numbers differ is because these arrived (like the bodies) in batches at the Abingdon assembly plant and probably were taken from the stock not in a numerical order, to be placed in a chassis.
Only recently we had another thread about this subject on this BBS.
Nick, 52TD/63midget.
D.G.J. Herwegh

Nick, the issue of body numbers on TDs has baffled the experts for quite some time. If you have the TSO-CDROM and Larry Shoers index program you can find a few references to where folks tried to make sense of them. And this goes 'way back. I'll see if I can find some of the references for you.
Bud Krueger

Interesting!

I went out and checked my body number. It is 26869/4701. The difference from Gordon's car is 46/198. The funny thing is, my body number is lower than his, but the chassis is higher!

Evan Ford - TD 27621

Bud, I think you're making an understatement when you say: "body numbers baffle the experts".
I think the cracking of the Enigma code during WW2 was peanuts compared to this. Here we have two TD's with relatively high chassis numbers whereas their bodynumbers are low. (Or is it like on a mile-o-meter and the counting starts all over again when it hits the 100.000 mark ??)
Anyway: searched the BBS archive and came up with another dozen or so body numbers. Still no matching pair of batch numbers (this would proof that indeed it's a batch number and Clausager is right). As I don't have the TSO-CDRom, I would surely appreciate some extra reference material.
Evan, I have the strong suspicion that with body numbers it's not much different then with engines: As the chassis moved down the assembly line in more or less numerical order, they put bodies on them "on demand". Say red would be a popular (read; quick selling) colour in that period, they would assemble maybe ten red cars, four green and one grey. Next day again etc. etc. In this way the numerical order of the body batches would be lost. Don't suppose that your car and Gordon's have the same (original) colour ???
Nick, 52TD/63Midget.
D.G.J. Herwegh

A photo of the number is at:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/gordonblawson/td/bodyno.jpg Have no reason to think it was changed in '67 when the car was rebuilt. The other numbers match. (Haven't seen the number on the dumbiron, but that should just match the main number?)
When the term "batch" is used... does in necessarily mean colour? I seem to remember seeing a shot of the assembly line with various shades of grey all in a row?
Would the sedans travelling down the parallel assembly line be using the same engine? That would throw the engine numbers all around.
Seems to me i read somewhere that the bodies came loaded in trucks and were pulled at the descretion of the "puller"?
My original colour was Ivory/green.
gordon lawson - TD 27667

May not add anything but my 1950 is number 3435, body number 3001 / 60278. I believe the original color was black.

Dennis


D F Sexton

I found the TSO entries. Back in 1978 the astute Technical Editor of TSO, none other than F.E. Old III, got into the body number issue when blank identification plates became available. In the July, 1978 issue of TSO, Chip wrote, "...There is probably some rough sort of correlation between car number, body type and body number, but due to lack of suffucient data I have been unable to figure it out." He then asked Register members to send him information about the numbers on their cars. The response was less than overwhelming. Chip wrote again on the subject in March of 1981. His closing words on the topic are, "The end result of all of this is that there is no way that I can tell you the correct body number for your car based on the chassis number." Quite a number of algorithms were tried, but none held up.
Bud Krueger

Just to add more information for comparison, my car is/was also Ivory with a green interior.

Evan Ford - TD 27621

Ooops, I think I'm re-inventing the wheel here...
Indeed what the "body-code" exactly means will forever stay a mystery I think. All I want to check is Clausager's statement in his book "Original MG T-series" that the first number is a batch number. If this is true then there must be a few TD's around with corresponding first body numbers!!! It is after all logical I think: if you make complete car bodies which go in separate pieces to the assembly line you want the original body-tub being matched up to the original wings and bonnet the moment they are brought together on a chassis. This to obtain not only a perfect fit but also a colour match. As paint never has a consistent shade you have to work in batches. So I have the vague impression that somewhere in the batch number the paint (read colour) code and the date of body assembly (NOT car assembly),is hidden.. After all, suppose something went wrong during transport or assembly of the car before it left Abingdon and its body was damaged, Morris Bodies branch had to come up with a sample of the original paint batch to touch up the car in order to make it fit for delivery again.
Anyway, will try to collect as many numbers as possible and who knows maybe something will roll out of it. If so, I'll let you all know !
Nick, 52TD/63Midget.
P.S. Evan and Gordon if you have both an ivory car then I suppose that only Bletchley Park can figure out the body numbers....8^)
D.G.J. Herwegh

Looks like my 50 TD was built a few days after Dennis'. Mine is Car No. TD/3585, Body Type 22381, Body No. 3135/59596. Original color was green.

Steve
Steve Markman

Please refer to the "TD - Production Numbers" thread.
V.W. Piņa

Ok, just found another interesting thing. My 50 TD is TD/4139 Body#3644/63548. Note that the numbers on gordons plate and given in Evens thread are backwards from those on mine,Marks and Dennis's. Anyone know why?

Also why is Steves body number higher than Dennis's but the second number is less?

Original color on mine was sun bronze. (Sorry, I just could not bring myself to repaint it that color. Only seen one TD that color and it is - lets say "Unique") Interior was black when I got it, but there was a slight bit of red on the inside of where the bow screwed on to the interior. I have a really hard time picturing a bronze car with a red interior!!!

So my car# is 554 after Steves but body is only 509 more.
Bruce Cunha

Was just on ebay looking at an MG TC... noticed the engine number on the factory plate is XPAG 26XXX
Anyone know if the xpag was numbered sequentially from its beginning...or did it start over with TD's (that wouldn't make sense would it?)
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Gordon - Not sure exactly how the engine numbering went, but in his book "Living With the XPAG Engines, the Morris X Series Engines" Neil Cairns talks about the XPAG fitted to the TB in August of 1939 through the TC. Even though he doesn't specifically follow the serial numbers, he does talk about engine number XPAG 2966 being in a TC and the XPAG/SC used in the Y types starting with #10001. With the TD, the engine number began with XPAG/TD/501 and continued on up the numbers until the TF, at which point it became XPAG/TF/... and it looks like the numbering continuet up rather than starting over again. The TD MK IIs used engine numbers XPAG/TD3/..., but continued in sequence with the other engine numbers. Remember that the X series engines were also used in a number of other British cars of the time inclucing the some of the Austins, the Morris and the Wolseley. So yes, it does make sense that the numeric portion of the engine numbers did start over again with the TD. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

D.G.J. Herwegh, Netherlands... can you send me the chassis/body numbers of the cars you have...
I have about 20 or so and whatever the 2nd body number is, it started over at 99,999. Evan and mine are low and a few before are in the 99 range. (Bud's '53 is the closest to ours and it is 99xxx)

If you have kept track of the engines/colours send them along...
gordon lawson

I'm thinking the second number might be "Carbodies" number and might be the total number of bodies they made.... or total MG's (they built bodies for quite a few manufacturers).
gordon lawson

Gordon,
You have mail...8^)
Nick, 63Midget/52TD.
D.G.J. Herwegh

Gordon-

I have a late 53 TD made in August. Serial number TD/29744 with engine XPAG/TD2/30121. The Body Type 22381 and Body Number is 28982/7945. Original colour was Black. Interesting that all the numbers are about the same as the difference between your S/N and mine except for the second body number, which is 1000 higher.

Jan
Janson Hurd

another serie of numbers My TD I think is
a 51 has the numbers body type 22381
s number TD4490 Body number 397663860 and had tengine number xPAG TD 4806,
t g sorensen

Any idea what the original colours were?
gordon lawson - TD 27667

This thread was discussed between 22/03/2005 and 10/04/2005

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