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Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Ford gear oil for Type 9 gearbox

Where available, or still available, details below of the Ford gear oil for Type 9 gearbox.

Note, Hi-Gear recommend the use of Comma SX 75w90, GL4 (semi-synthetic) or Redline MT 90 (75w90, GL4, fully synthetic).

This might be as the Ford (labelled) gear oil is usually more expensive and harder to locate.

Ford 75w90 Transmission Oil – 1790199 (1 litre bottle of 75w90 transmission oil).

Ford specification:
ESDM-2C175-A
ESDM-2C186-A
WSD-M2C200-C

Compatible with all Ford models with 5-speed Type 9 manual transmission.

Around £20-£26 in the UK (at time of writing).

For those that have seen enough or get bored more easily with such things stop here, for those that want a bit more detail and history carry on.



Some Type 9 builders insist on semi-synthetic 75W90 fluid to GL4 specification, in particular Ford (red dyed) oil and Comma SX75W-90 GL4, others insist on a GL4.

Both the Ford and Comma oils are to Ford spec Ford (ESD)M-2C175-A, (WSD-M2C200-C).

Going back a good few years Castrol SMX was red, 80W90, semi-synthetic, GL4, M2C-175A, "Recommended primarily for Ford Sierra and Vauxhall 5-speed gearboxes", so was the(?)/an alternative (or perhaps actual?) oil to the stuff in the Ford labelled bottle at the time (and now?).

Later came Castrol SMX-S (75W-85, GL4), "fully" rather than semi-synthetic, this was then replaced by Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle at now 75W-90 with Ford spec Ford WSD- M2C200- C (remember this spec is also on the current Ford oil at start of this post).

At time of writing Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75w90 (GL4) is still available, it's been recommended by many users, especially in cold areas where shifting from cold can be awkward. It is now replaced with Castrol Transmax 75W-90 (GL4).






Nigel Atkins

Redline MT 90 (75w90, GL4, fully synthetic)

https://www.redlineoil.com/mt-90-75w90-gl-4-gear-oil

https://cdn.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/redline/redline-mtl-redline-mt90.pdf - (or see attached pdf).



Nigel Atkins

I there is any Brass in it, I personally would put in MT-90. PJ
PJ Jennings

PJ

Redline advertise MT90 as - "Safe for brass synchros, as it lacks the reactive sulfurs found in most GL-5 oils that cause damage".

Note the "found in most GL-5 oils" not all GL5 oils, they don't put all just (an unqualified) most.

If your worry is about 'yellow metals' then any GL4 transmission oil will be fine, and that may be the limit of your and others belief, which is fine.

I use a GL5 oil which is outside of Redline's "most GL-5 oils" in my Type 9 gearbox and have done for a few years now as the (British) oil blender assured me (twice) that it wouldn't attack 'the yellow metals' and I believe them, there's more to high level modern additives than shed loads of active sulphur, that is my belief.

30 years ago, mainly by classics owners that rarely drove their classics, I was warned using Mobil 1 would destroy my classics' engines, rot my teeth and steal my looks. I put many tens of thousands of miles on the engines and they ran fine for me and following owners, and I've kept my teeth and looks.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, Didn't mean to start a dispute, just told what I use in my gearboxes and final drives. I appreciate the fact that everyone has their favorite products to use, but MT-90 made my rebuilt TF gearbox shift much easier and run quieter. I really could care less what someone else uses, their car, their money! lol! PJ
PJ Jennings

PJ,
no dispute, we're agreeing, see also my posts in the 'Hi-Gear 5 speed installation video' where I put Redline as a suggestion before I knew it was recommended by Hi-Gear and yourself, great minds think alike. 😊

I should have thrown in a few smilies here, I was just offering alternatives products and views and trying to bring some viewers more up to date (to many years ago).

I put Redline up, as a very good choice, as I saw Declan put that Hi-Gear recommended it (along with Comma). This was great to see as the the usual older mindsets on the M&S and B sections only like brand names they know from the 60s, despite the products being updated so different to before anyway. Most don't see any point in changing the oil or that the better oils are better, "they're all the same".

If I was in USA I'd be using Redline too but being in UK I prefer where possible to support a local company (not mentioned here) if their product is of good quality.

Plus it's bad enough remembering two types of measure, the old imperial(ist) and more logical metric, without remembering a USA quart isn't the same as an imperial quart and 946ml (32 fl oz, so another system) which seems like short-measure when used to buying litre bottles of oil (it's like counting the head of an ale as part of the pint as many do for beers and lagers).

Redline bottle = 1 USA quart / 946 ml / 32 fl oz

Imperial quart = 1.13 litres / 40 fl oz

What always amuses me is that no one questions what looks I had to retain. 😁
Nigel Atkins

Great info all. Thanks all.
Lastly, I hope, does anybody remember what size and type tool came with the HiGear kit to open/close the oil entry port? (Yes, I can't find my HyGear paperwork, senior moment.) I believe it was a hex (6 sided) wrench but what size?
Ed

efh Haskell

Ed,
my conversion kit isn't from Hi-Gear very unfortunately for me but uses a 10mm hex - into a 10mm female socket on the plug (I only have a filler plug unfortunately).

Photo is not my gearbox but a stock photo showing the lower fill plug position of the post-1987 boxes.




Nigel Atkins

Nigel
So we're back to oils again eh
GL5 is for axles Gl4 for gearboxes

GL4 has a cleaner in it to keep synchro rings surfaces clean and working properly

GL5 doesn't have this cleaner and deposits a friction reducing coating on touching surfaces to increase it's load rating capabilities above that of GL4, GL4 can be used in axles but with reduced friction protection compared to GL5

Redline are quite correct to advise you that GL5 won't eat your synchro rings, it won't, but, it will deposit a friction reducing coating that'can' reduce the operation capabilities of the synchro

Found this for you to help you understand ------
------------------
Gear Oil Industry Specifications

What is the difference between API GL-4 and API GL-5 Gear Oils?

The Difference between GL-4 and GL-5 Gear Oils

Many people are confused about API gear oil classifications. It is a common belief that API GL-5 oils can be used where API GL-4 requirements are specified. Although this is true for “gear oil”, it does not make API GL-5 gear oils satisfactory for all transmissions especially those that use synchromesh. They may meet the “gear oil” specifications, not the transmission oil specifications. API GL-4 and GL-5 categories do not mention or have anything to do with transmission synchronisers.

Originally, lead additives were used in gear oils and were very good at reducing wear in loaded gear sets. Lead though, is not very friendly to the environment and was phased out in favour of a Phosphorus and Sulphur combination. These gear oils used the Phosphorus and the Sulphur to attach to the gears and create a strong sacrificial layer to be worn off over the life of the fluid, thus protecting the gear from abrasive wear, high load and shock loads. Initially, the problem with this type of formulation was that the Sulphur used was active and caused corrosion of yellow and other soft metals used in transmissions and differentials. This happened because active sulphur reacted with some metals and metal alloys, especially those that used copper as the alloying element to form metal sulphides that in turn caused corrosion of the metal.

A generation ago deactivated or buffered sulfur was developed that could react with the phosphorous and create a protective and sacrificial layer in conditions created inside gear boxes. This formulation was not corrosive to brass, copper or other metal alloys used in transmissions. Today this is widely used in automotive transmission and gear oils.

Although de-activated sulphur may be used in a gear oil and may be safe for yellow metals such as brass and copper, it does not address the question of whether a GL-5 product can be used in all transmissions and especially those with synchromesh. A GL-5 grade oil has a very high rating for EP (Extreme Pressure) protection. EP gear oils contain additives that prevent metal surfaces from cold welding under the extreme pressure conditions found in situations where boundary lubrication prevails. At the high local temperatures associated with metal-to-metal contact, an EP additive combines chemically with the metal to form a surface film that is ductile enough to prevent the welding of opposing surfaces and prevent scuffing or scoring that is destructive to sliding surfaces under high loads.

In normal operation, the sulfur/phosphorous additive forms a black sacrificial coating on the gears and anything it touches with a little pressure and temperature. As the gears turn, instead of wearing, the sacrificial coating of additives is peeled off or worn off. This is normal and acceptable in all steel gears. But when one or more of the surfaces is brass or another soft metal, the sacrificial coating is stronger than the base metal, and instead of just peeling off, it takes with it a few microns of the softer metal.

An API GL-4 gear oil of any given viscosity has about ½ of the level of sulfur/phosphorous additive that would be in the API GL-5 product, so the bond with the metal surface inside the transmission is not as strong, and therefore can be peeled off without peeling a layer of soft metal. This means that the GL-4 product provides a little less extreme pressure protection than a GL-5 oil but less wear on synchromesh components of a transmission. When a GL-5 oil is used in a transmission with synchromesh it can create up to 4 times the amount of copper in a used oil analysis as that of a GL-4 product. Synchronisers will eventually wear to the point where they become ineffective.

When used in a differential, there is a 30% increase in the torque load compared with a transmission, so in this case, the extra EP protection is required, which is where an API GL-5 oil is best suited.

willy
William Revit

Willy,
you have misunderstood, the three oils I've put here are all GL4 and I put I would use Redline which is a GL4, a good oil is a good oil, but that is not the oil I use.

Redline MT90 - GL4 - "Safe for brass synchros, as it lacks the reactive sulfurs found in most GL-5 oils that cause damage".

As for GL4 and GL5, I've been through all this before, people can use whatever oil keeps them happy, more important is that it is thoroughly changed at timely intervals.

If you could let me know how long the GL5 will take to reduce the operation capabilities of the synchro in my T9 box I can let you know when it starts to happen. Having driven a few standard T9s I've never found then to be quick shifting or over pleasant being a saloon/pick-up gearbox.

The specifications have to be meet but that can be in different ways, for smaller concerns it can be easier not to reduce their core products just to match minimum requirements. It's like suggesting Fosters and Castlemaine XXXX are the standards for lager and there's no need for better - certainly no need for worse, or more more of the same. 🤣

What you've quoted has been put up many times before, it's available as a 12 page pdf download (my version has Revision 6-2017) written by Richard Widman who according to his website sells American made oils in Boliva. He seems a bit conflicted as he states to stick with the owner's manuals then "We do not sell motor oil for gasoline engines that is less than API SN". - https://www.widman.biz/English/

Here's something to disturb your sleep, I've always been told you can't mix silicon and standard brake fluids and you need to renew or thoroughly clean out the system if switching to silicon then I read and talk to others who tell me they didn't and have had no problems, some with 20+ years use. I think that came up on the Y-Type section but it might have been here, as I put before it surprised me that the chaps with the older cars were more open-minded to real world use and less constrained to the past.

My possession of my T9 gearbox had a very bad beginning so it's probably always been destined for a very bad end (if you believe in such things) just a matter of whether I'm delaying or hastening this. 😀

There's no problem with everyone going their own way on these matters, as PJ put it's their car and money.
Nigel Atkins

Only the messenger here Nigel-
What I put up was from Penrite's technical pages
Why temp fate when the correct option is readily available
Can I ask , the reason you run GL5 in your box. instead of running the correct oil,
just curious
willy
William Revit

pressed the button a bit early, here's the rest

Only the messenger here Nigel-
What I put up was from Penrite's technical pages
Why temp fate when the correct option is readily available
Can I ask , the reason you run GL5 in your box. instead of running the correct oil,
There has been no mention of Redline's GL5NS

Is your Redline oil GL5--or GL5NS (very different oils)
Redline does GL5NS (non slip)which has the extra load carrying capacity of GL5 but has no friction modifiers so is suitable for synchro boxes and racing application in LSD axles
William Revit

No you can't ask why I run GL5 instead of the correct oil, you can ask why I use a suitable correct GL4 spec oil instead of the usual GL5 oil. 😉

I'll keep it short as all the info can be found in the Archives, formerly Ford did have that a GL5 oil could be used and then they changed their minds, I could give you my cynical thoughts as to why that might have been but offer a more plateable explanation for you - they sell Ford labelled oil that has perhaps changed over the years, their spec numbers at the very least have become more inclusive and wide ranging - and lots of talk of *most/all* GL5 oils eating the yellow metals. Ford hadn't made that particular named box for decades so possibly not their major concern.

I was assured by the oil blender, twice, that the oil I bought would be fine for use and as my T9 box was badly converted (by "specialist experts") and incontinent I thought it needed more nursing than with others as I also wasn't convinced it'd been reconditioned (at all or in the sense most of us would expect).

Also handy to have one bottle to also cover my unknown-origin rear axle for when I change as it doesn't really leak (unlike that box!).

To cheer you up a bit it's a motorsport oil, but I checked it can be used on a road going car and good for winter use.

ETA: Willy, get your glasses on, I've put before I don't use Red Line (keep forgetting it's two words). 😋
Nigel Atkins

Sorry I got the edit wrong (I keep getting interrupted) should be -
No you can't ask why I run GL5 instead of the correct oil, you can ask why I use a suitable correct GL5 spec oil instead of the usual GL4 oil. 😉

Nigel Atkins

Nigel
I'm interested to know exactly the brand and title of the oil you're using in your T9
I take it that it's Red line synthetic GL5 but which one ,the axle oil GL5 or the gearbox oil GL5NS
I'm using CASTROL SYNTRANS Z LONG LIFE 75W-80 in a semi straight cut box in a mate's Escort at the moment and we're finding while it's perfect when it's cold/normal it's baulks a bit on the upchanges but not downchanges when it gets hot
It's a bit weird really as it's an ultra close ratio gearset so there's no real rev issue to overcome between gears
It'd be interesting to try yet another oil, there's been a few so far and the Syntrans has been the best so far
willy
William Revit

Willy,
it's not Red Line, USA ain't local to me, but why not try the Red Line MT90, its a fully synthetic GL4. See my second post on this thread for links and attached pdf.

Now the oil I use, well, as I put in my third post, others will be concerned that its use might damage the gearbox, rob your mate of teeth and looks, and he might not have as much of both as me to spare. 😁

I use Millers CRX 75w90 NT (now NT+) -

"CRX 75w90 NT+ is ideal for modern transmissions, differentials, and limited slip differentials (excluding plated type LSD) and where fully synthetic oil is specified, especially for high performance road and track day applications."

"• Fully synthetic oils protect the gear teeth at both low start-up and high running temperatures
• Triple ester formulation works synergistically for optimised film strength and anti-wear protection
• Second generation NANODRIVE low friction technology maximises torque and power"

https://www.millersoils.co.uk/products/crx-75w90-nt-2/

Attached pdf of datasheet (or) - https://www.millersoils.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/CRX-75w90-NT.pdf

I couldn't find it in their website shop so I rang them and it's as I thought just a missing link, I wonder how long it'll remain missing.

NOTE: they also do other flavours to keep the various 'team' supporters happy -
https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/motorsport-transmission-and-gearbox-oil?pagesize=9

HTH. 😀
Nigel Atkins

Find a Stockist

Walcam PTY Ltd t/a Australian Race Parts

T: 0061 242 712277

90 William James Drive
Mount Kembla
New South Wales 2526
Australia

https://www.millersoils.co.uk/find-a-stockist/?locale=international

ETA: I'd expect you and your mate to do a full strip down and thorough wash of the box - and remove any metal debris 😁 - before a complete dry refill of new oil before doing any comparison of oils in use.

But really is it worth it an oil's an oil, and it's only an Escort, save your money squirt some PTFE in. 😊

Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel
Have had the Millers 75/90 NT in it and probably about the same result as the syntrans
I wonder what the NT+ is- in comparison , I'll look into that.
This thing is no ordinary Escort, more of a rally car replica, The g/box has a quickshift with a flatshifter and I'm starting to think that because of the extra light flywheel and the shifter killing the engine on shifts that that is causing the baulking. We've done all the usual mods like removing every second tooth off the synchro rings etc--even tried every second dog off third gear for a try but well, don't do that. but worth a try
It's just weird that it'll come down through the gears fine but not up through them which is a bit backwards to what you'd expect--It seems to be ok with the flatshift disconnected and the rev limiter set lower to match gearchange revs but you don't always need to change dead on the same revs---It'll sort out
Just thought(was hoping ) you might have had some magic snake oil that we haven't tried
Cheers
willy
William Revit

Willy,
TBH I didn't think it'd be available down your way. The formula must have change to get the percentage difference between NT and NT+. What about trying 75w110.

You could try an email to their technical department, looks like they sponsor Ginetta if they're putting the name on two oil cans so well into racing, of those at least.

I was only half joking about PTFE, a chap in the MG OC reckons on the stuff (forget the name) that's basically tit or the same added to pretty standard oils, but you'd want racing or synthetic high temperature oil of course which might be over egging the oil.

Problem is you need to put back each stage of change to go through each change again if you may big changes on the oils. I suppose it's very difficult to know how close or far off each change is to success with such cliff-edge type of gear changes.

Good luck.
Nigel Atkins

Hi

Interesting thread and great that this is being kept off the midget and Sprite Technical threads where the dinosaurs like me normally roam! (joke for Nigel and Willy who are often there)

Some thoughts on why people, like me, can be conservative about using new specifications of consumables on classic cars, in response to Nigel’s comments above: ‘ I put Redline up, as a very good choice, as I saw Declan put that Hi-Gear recommended it (along with Comma). This was great to see as the the usual older mindsets on the M&S and B sections only like brand names they know from the 60s, despite the products being updated so different to before anyway. Most don't see any point in changing the oil or that the better oils are better, "they're all the same". ’

It is that if the old stuff still works fine in a properly serviced (according to the factory Driver’s Manual) car and can still get the consumable, why change? I would look for alternative if I was using the component beyond its designed use and was finding operational issues, or could not buy the old stuff anymore. Or if I fancied skipping the change intervals and wanted something to leave in longer. I do realise there is no single Driver’s Manual that fully covers a 1970s MG Midget with its A Series engine - or a 1940s T Series with XPAG engine - fitted with a 1980s Ford Sierra Type 9 five speed gearbox (from a Ford Pinto engined car), and IIRC some Ford gearboxes did not have drain plugs which suggested filled for life (even if life is now is much longer than than expected by the vehicle manufacturer).

I am expecting to have to do some reading and thinking when I cannot any longer get ethylene glycol antifreeze (the old blue stuff) that works perfectly fine in a well maintained and used standard car (properly backflushed according to some helpful chap on the Midget BBS). I will then have to see if I can put in modern oats (barley/wheat/chaff?) and what colour (orange, pink or what) and then listen to whether and why water is no good anymore and should use a water replacement or water wetter to achieve technical and no flush ever nirvana. Yeah, I must like tinkering more than driving, but also I like keeping an eye on what my A Series and heater and cooling system is up to as well as that the antifreeze installed is still fit for purpose in terms of the old cold nights here and making sure my heating and cooling system is not corroding too much.

Cheers
Mike

M Wood

There is no hiding from Midget & Sprite here.
Alan Anstead

Well Mike I really am offended


- its Driver's Handbook not Manual! 😁

(Though I suspect that was a wind-up on your part).

It's great to have different views expressed, many viewers would have the same thoughts as you and as I put I agree with PJ it's their car and money so they use what they want.

Thing with much of the old stuff, regards oils at least, it isn't the same as it was, in say the 60s, so just by sticking with the old stuff you have changed anyway. Have a look at Duckhams Q as just one example.

About 20 years ago I emptied out a Ford 'filled for life' (what or who's life?) on a 20 year old Ford and the oil that came out to my untrained, untechnical, unmechanical eyes didn't look fit for purpose, certainly different from the fresh oil I was putting in (cold drain then).

I like the extra margins better oils give as you never know what and when will put greater demands on your engine and transmission (and I could list loads with my Midget and its "specialist experts" T9 conversion as you know).

The old antifreeze works fine, as long as you don't mind changing it about every two years, but it has other nasty side issues and not good value at about only 2-year life either.

Brake fluid is the one that gets me, horrid stuff, it's like paints and glues, here we are in the 21st century still using those ancient technologies, only because they're so cheap that companies can make such good profit with little effort on such stuff.

There are many good products from the past which will have to come back to be use now and in the future but not much of the ancient stuff used for cars.

I was surprised to find many owners of the older cars on the BBS with MGA, T and Y-Types were a lot more open to options than the owners of the younger cars like Spridgets and Bs (I realise some have a collection of models).

I'm only for driving the car, everything else is a chore so if it can be reduced easily, and improve performance, I'm all for it. 😀
Nigel Atkins

Alan, you can see the thread title and my name, not my best Lord Lucan impression. 😁

I previously put the same thread up in the S&M, B, A (and Y?) sections, never thought about T9s going into T & Y Types, silly of me really considering how ancient Spridgets are but there's a lot more interconnections with T & Y-Types and Spridgets than I imagined.
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 02/05/2021 and 08/05/2021

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.