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MG TD TF 1500 - Fuel and System Cleaning Additive

As usual, looking for help/recommendations! Several members in my classic car club suggest I go to an Auto-Zone, etc. and employees would know what I wanted. Hopefully, some of you will have specific products you believe in.

Started the TD a few days ago after several months' inactivity (been using the TF for cruising). TD I think needs a battery - jump started it - it ran VERY roughly for fifteen minutes (did not try and drive it). I shut her down and pushed her back into garage).

What can I use to hopefully run through by adding to fuel tank that may take care of this situation?

Grateful in advance!

Jerry
Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

Fresh fuel. That is all you should need. If you are really concerned, treat the fuel with injection cleaner. If your tank has been "slushed" with any product to seal the tank, make sure whatever cleaner you use does not contain MEK.
C.R. Tyrell

Jerry,

Agree with C.R. - drain your tank and add fresh fuel with either an octane booster or an injection cleaner.

In the future try adding StaBil for ethanol fuel (if that's what you use) or plain StaBil if you're buying non-ethanol fuel for your TD.

Gene
Gene Gillam


C.R. and Gene,

Thanks for the suggestion.

I have NEVER drained a fuel tank. Any tips? I use either the highest octane or ethanol-free fuel (if and when I can find that).

Should others have any suggestions - put them on me!

Thanks guys,

Jerry
Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

Jerry,

There should be two openings at the bottom of your tank. One is where the fuel line is attached and the other is plugged by a plug. You can easily drain it into a container from either of those OR you can pump it out using your fuel pump. That may be easier because you'll have more control when your container gets full.

You don't have to get all of the bad fuel out, just most of it...a gallon or so remaining will mix in with the new gasoline.

Gene
Gene Gillam

Easiest is to use the fuel pump to drain most of the fuel. This will exercise the pump as well. Just do it outside where it is well ventilated. Drain the residual from the gas line that comes out of the tank at the bottom. This will give you the opportunity to remove the filter screen in the tank and give it a clean. A fuel stabilizer is well recommended. Especially if the car is not used on a weekly basis.

Get out and drive your TD... That is what they were made for. The more you drive them the more reliable they are!
C.R. Tyrell

whether pumping or draining the tank empty..make sure the gas can and the car are grounded. saw an entire hanger go up in flames when fuel was being drained from an ungrounded vehicle into an ungrounded gas can.
sta-ble will keep the fuel fresh for at least as long as the label states. i had 30 gal. of ethanol in a boat gas tank for 6 years in unheated storage. the fuel was as good as when the boat went into storage 6 years earlier. last fall i drained the tank on my '35 that had been sitting for 3 years in unheated storage..treated with sta-ble it still smelled fresh so i ran it in my 2008 ford fusion and what did not fit in the tank i used in my snowblower to finish it up. no issues at all. regards, tom
tom peterson

In this age of ethanol fuel, I have taken to using Stabil Blue (marine) double the recommended strength. It is formulated for high moisture conditions. Since I have been using it in all my engines: cars, tractors, mowers, generators, splitter.. maybe overkill, but I have not had a single problem.
Bob;
RwB Brown

Jerry,
I for one am not that sure that it is the condition of your fuel,, having it sit for a few months should not affect the fuel that much,,, My car sits all winter (late Nov till late May) with a full tank,(no fuel conditioner) and, with fresh plugs, it starts up and runs fine in the spring,,,
You didn't give any hints other than <<it ran VERY roughly for fifteen minutes<<

stuck choke? no choke? old plugs? old points? stored with less than a full tank of fuel? fuel pump not working properly? clogged fuel pump srceens? moisture(from condensation) in the dizzy cap?

there are many tings to check befor draining the tank,,,

What is the old saying?? "Most carb/(fuel) problems are electrical?"



SPW
STEVE WINCZE



Again, thanks to all for your input and suggestions.

Steve W., my main dilemma continues to be lack of much mechanical experience and understanding. Probably the best two mechanics in the area closed shop about a year ago. Anyway, this is the main reason I ask some unimformed and incomplete questions. I rely heavily on what you fellas have to offer on this wonderful forum. I try not to come to this well too often so as not to antagonize you knowledgable MGers. I want to keep my cars and take good care of them as long as possible.

Continuing appreciation to ALL,

Jerry

Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

Jerry, It is always better to ask, than not. We may not know everything either but usually we can get you to ask the right questions. Its really important to keep the cars on the road safely.
C.R. Tyrell

Jerry,
It is somewhat daunting to do some of this work, but when you get into it, it is not very hard. His may be overly simplified, but let me offer some suggestions.

Chemicals:
Carb clean. May want to try some carb cleaner to help with a gentle cleaning of carbs.. Pretty easy to use, just spray into carb throat to hel clean out gunk.
Fuel tank and gas. A bit of Stabil, Lucas mystery oil or seafoam are all good options.

Mechanic: not having a local mechanic is never easy, but I am sure you can find someone with experience to help you through this. What others say is true, many problems are not fuel based. Check your local mg club and you will have a dozen mechanics at your door next Saturday.... Don't forget beer;) they are a helpful bunch, and know their stuff.



Plugs: these are very easy to remove and replace, and you could take a picture, post on this forum and people can give quick advice. Some caution notes... Do one plug at a time... The plug wires need to stay with the same hole. In jfr real, brown is good, black, wet, or looking fuzzy and black may need help.

Battery. A few months woot use, battery being dead is not uncommon, you can buy a small battery minder and they do great jobs of keeping good batteries topped off. They do not do a good job at charging dead batteries, however.

Good luck, keep asking..


Dean E

jerry,,
You can come to this "well" as often as you wish!

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

" buy a small battery minder and they do great jobs of keeping good batteries topped off"

More that just keeping a battery 'topped off', the Battery Minder/Battery Tender/Battery Buddy/etc. are all more than just a trickle charger (which will, over time, will over charge the battery), the various Battery Tenders actually exercise the battery: charging the battery to optimum level, then letting the battery discharge to a predetermined level, at which point the cycle is started over continuously. This exercising of the battery keep the plate from forming a lead sulphate coating, which ultimately destroys the battery's ability to take and hold a charge. These 'Tenders' are a must for cars that are not driven on a regular basis and are particularly needed for cars that are put into hibernation over the winter months. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

But- something that's not mentioned in the instructions - disconnect any devices that may draw current. Connect the Minder/Tender/,etc. to the bare battery. The tender will see the current draw as a battery issue and will never go into the 'sleep' mode. The clock is one of these sources, another common one is an alarm system. I took two units back to Sears because I figured that they had to be faulty since the 'sleep' LED was coming on. They are great devices. Wouldn't be without one. Bud
Bud Krueger

Completely agree, I just wanted to be sure jerry and others did not think these units are really battery chargers, as they don't really charge dead batteries.

Best to use a good battery charger to do that work. ( good investment as well)
Dean E

Jerry

Just went through this at the start of the summer. My TD had sat for about 2 years without running. Fuel had a poor odor. Car ran similar to what yours sounds like.

I took off the carb covers and sprayed carb cleaner down the needle valve port, cleaned off the needle and flushed the float valve.

With that, it ran well enough to get to the gas station and add fresh fuel.
Bruce Cunha

Bud - I never gave that a thought, but it makes sense. That said, I have a battery Tender Jr. that I use on our TD and it works very well in spite of having an alarm system that is constantly on in our car. I suspect that there are differences in the different units as far as current draw is concerned. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois



THANKS to everyone for the encouragement and pretty explicit ideas and instructions. I hope to resolve the TD problem by this upcoming weekend. One of my continuing "problems to solve" is overcoming inertia!
I freeze-up when it comes to beginning a troubleshooting agenda. I hope to start this afternoon.

Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

Jerry, Another reason to "come to this "well" as often as you wish!' There are a lot of us who may be having similar problems but haven't asked the question yet. The knowledge gleaned from other questions and answers to what may not be our problem today may be just what we need to know tomorrow. Not only that, as you can see from some of the tangents that some of these threads take, your question may lead to the answer to my problem. Keep asking.

Thanks.

Jud

J K Chapin



If I end up having to drain the fuel tank myself, does anyone have suggestions where to go for disposal? If I can use the drained fuel someplac else, I will try to do so.

Thanksto all.
Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

Jerry... use it in your lawnmower/snowblower, etc. Won't hurt them a bit. Maybe even an old carburetted truck. Mix it with fresh gas , and it should be ok to use in small engines.
C.R. Tyrell

Jerry,
You might have mentioned it some where in this thread,, but I can not find it,,,,, How much fuel is in the tank??????

As long as you re going to drain it,,, check the strainer which is on the end of the fuel line inside the tank,,,

When you do replace the fuel with new stuff, you will have to run the engine for a while to clean out the old fuel from the fuel bowls,,,,

SPW

(PS, I still l think it's an electrical problem)
STEVE WINCZE



Steve,

There is more than half a tank. I am having somone check out the tune-up possibility. He cannot get to it until late next week. Hoping for the best - whatever that is! (:-)

Thanks,

Jerry
Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

jerry, this maybe repetitive, but if it hasn't been posted here, if that fuel smells funky do not use it in ANY internal combustion engine. if it looks normal and smells normal i would run it in anything. i had 3 year old sta-bil treated gas out of my '35 Terraplane. i put that fuel into my 2008 fusion, no issues. make sure it is clean, pour through a chamois if there is any doubt about debris in the fuel. regards, tom
tom peterson



Tom,

Good advice. I'll take it!

Thanks,

Jerry
Jerry Chandler 1951 TD



Uh-oh!

A car club member and I tried to determine if I had electrical, ignition, fuel, whatever-the-cause of my '51 TD's problem of extremely rough "running."

Extremely difficult to start (glad I had the new battery). Checked fuel flow, looks okay. Plugs 1, 2, and 4 removed and looked okay. We could not get plug number 3 to release(decided not to over-force its removal). Then, we removed one plug wire at a time, while running, and found that car seemed to be only operating on cylinder #1! Then, after resting a bit, we restarted the engine and all cylinders were working!? Puzzled, obviously. Hope to check compression for each cylinder later this week.

Back to #3. My buddy suggested waiting to "force" the issue until compression check on the other three. Then determine if we have to force out the plug and pull head and possibly go the helicoil(spelling?) route. We think a previous owner/service provider may have forced a cross-thread situation.

?????

Jerry

Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

jERRY,
What does the inside of the distributor cap look like? Is it wet with condensation? How old is the cap?
Your spark might be jumping around in there following moisture,, Are the wires old? they might be shorting out between each other,,, Turn off all of the lights in your garage, and try to start it in COMPLETE darkness while some one looks at the wires,, you might see a spark jump where they pass by or touch each other.

Don't jump to thinkling you have to go the Helicoil route untill you find out why the plug "won't release"...It might just be on there real tight,,
It's hard to tell how much force you put on it to try to remove it.

SPW
STEVE WINCZE



Steve,

Thanks for those ideas.

Is there a procedure OR a product someone might suggest, with personal experience, that might help my getting this plug to back out? Is there a lubricant that might penetrate down far enough to help get this plug to loosen without doing any damage? Really frustrating!

Thanks to all for your aid!

Jerry

Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

I wonder of putting a sparkplug socket on a battery operated hammer drill would produced enought vibration to release the plug without having so much torque that it would break the plug or damage the threads. I thought about an air operated impact wrench but would be scared that the tool would be too powerful. Just musing.

Jud
J K Chapin

Jerry,
I'm hopeing that the PO just tightened the plug too much, and squashed the compression ring on the plug. If that is true, it might need a lot of force.. You got it running on all four,,so maybe getting the engine hot and then trying to loosen the plug might help???? Are you using a regular 1/2" drive ratchet to remove it??

SPW
STEVE WINCZE



Finally have the hood reattached to my TF.

Should be able to turn my attention mainly to my TD.

Steve Wincze, you were the last to respond to my issues with rough running, missing, as well as a super-difficult #3 plug removal. Since you asked if I were using a regular 1/2" drive ratchet, should I assume that is the best choice?

Thanks once more. I look forward to having this resolved (I know all of you do)!

Jerry



Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

Jerry,
a couple of things to think about.
Plug 3: recommend a breaking fluid, WD-40, Blaster, and others make penetrating fluids that work well. I like acetone and ATF Fluid mix - but that is me) let it sit for a while, re-apply every couple hours if needed.
- ALSO: if you have 3/4" plugs and it is spec'd for 1/2" plugs, you may have carbon buildup and you may want to try some other options - let us know if that is the case.
- Agree that a little vibration would be good, also heat up the plug and try again. Don't be afraid to try to tighten it a bit to give it some movement.

As for the ratchet, you should be able to use a 3/8 or 1/2, you will blow the threads before even a 3/8" ratchet.

But personally, I would leave #3 alone until you stabilize the rest of the system, if you break 3 off, you will never be able to figure it out. a motor will run on 3 of 4 cyls well enough...

Starting rough, what have you found out about your cap. if plugs are not firing then cap or gas could be the problem, I would actually focus here for a bit.

D Engel

Jerry,
What were you using to try to remove them???

A 1/2" ratchet will allow you to apply more pressure than a 3/8,, the handle is longer,,,,

Now that it is past the weekend since you sent the last update,,,,,, did you have any success in removing the plug??
SPW
STEVE WINCZE



Dean and Steve - and others,

Amazing how strange, unexplained "things" happen - some good, some not so good.

Got the TD started Tuesday. Already had increased the idle from a week earlier to help keep it running without sputtering, spitting, missing, etc. Let it run for 35 - 40 minutes. I was pleasantly surprised that she was seemingly running fairly smoothly. Bravely ventured around the block - about 3/4 mile. During the short trip, had a lot of trouble shifting gears, especially from second to third and third into "high." Stopped and ran through the gears pattern two or three times. Good in low, then in second, okay into third but then grinding and gnashing into fourth. Got her to the driveway and in the garage. Idled her down - running pretty good. Crossing my fingers and hoping the fuel was maybe the big culprit! We'll see.

Now - what the h_ _ _! with this shifting? Any clergymen out there?

Jerry
Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

jerry, are you saying when the car is stationary you cannot get the gearbox into fourth..either at all or without grinding? regards, tom
tom peterson



Thanks for the question, Tom.

Getting into third AND fourth comes with a LOT of the grinding and very difficult in getting into gear. A couple of the times I was attempting the shifting I coasted and braked to slow down so I could stay in the lower gear. It feels as though I am going to do some real damage if I keep forcing the issue.

As I mentioned, this situation seemed to pop out of nowhere.

Suggestions?

Thanks,

Jerry



Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

Jerry,
First, let's get back to the original problem,,, In your most recient posting you said
>> Crossing my fingers and hoping the fuel was maybe the big culprit! We'll see. <<
Did you drain the tank??? What did you do to the fuel?

Now the shifting,,,, In the beginning of this posting, you said
>> Started the TD a few days ago after several months' inactivity <<
Did you have this shifting problem prior to the "several months of inactivity"????

SPW

STEVE WINCZE

Jerry, I read your problem just started happening after the car's long sit..can you shift into 3rd and 4th with the engine running, but the car stationary? If first and second function normally that would indicate the clutch is in good order. A possibility for the problems with third/fourth could be synchro rings or shifter forks.
You are correct ..you do not want to continually crash engage these gearboxes.
Did you try double clutching to engage 3rd/4th?
Regards, Tom
tom peterson



Steve - No, I did not drain the fuel tank yet. Seemed to be running better - hoped to run it down to 1/4 tank and refill with premium and add more Sta-Bil.

I did not have the shifting issues before the inactivity - though there has always been a "tight" pattern feel. Not much margin for error when shifting without a longer hesitation period (and not really crowding the time of the shift) and not really different with double-clutching.

Tom - After going out to the TD yesterday, the shifting experience is inconsistent. Whether running through the shifting pattern while not running, or engine running, and double-clutching or not - there is no guarantee to do so with or without the grinding. This may even happen trying to get her into second. Any relationship to the syncromeshing gears? I am at a loss.

I will hope to do what you guys are trying to get me to do. Still hoping for your continued experience and expertise. Weather is beginning to be a factor, along with space, equipment, etc. (most of all - know-how).

Thanks for staying with me on this!

Jerry

Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

jerry, i am not sure if you have sorted out your issues yet or not. a couple of things..with any of this i do mean to patronize..i am just not familiar with your knowledge base..so no disrespect intended. in regard to fuel, perhaps i am misreading, but if not..sta-bil will have no effect on fuel that has already gone bad..once gas turns sour it is gone. prior to turning bad sta-bil does an AMAZING job. as a result of a family tragedy that i will not retell, i had a boat sit for 6 years with 30 gallons of ethanol fuel in the tank..it was as fresh as the day the boat was parked. i more recently had a '35 terraplane parked for 3 years..fuel was as fresh as when parked. if you knew that about sta-bil..my apologies.
in regard to shifting, i assume you are posting because what you are now experiencing is a change from what you had. so as you probably know, but if not, the shift pattern on the TD's is pretty tight if you have all the wear items in as new order. in addition, my experience has been that even with good synchro rings you cannot speed shift these cars like a modern vehicle..more of a one potato-two potato event. but if you are leisurely shifting up through the gears it should be silent shifting. with the engine off, car parked, you probably will not be able able to shift through the entire gear pattern without rolling the car, that is normal.
i am a little confused about the symptoms as i read them because if reverse, first and second shift properly that would indicate your clutch is in good order...but if double clutching does not work any better than normal shifting in the synchro gears (2,3,4) that would indicate the clutch is not functioning properly. hmmm... with the ignition off, car in gear, can you roll the car? if not, when you push in the clutch can you roll the car?
perhaps steve or someone else who is also sharper than me has already helped you sort this out.
this just popped into my head, what is the oil level in your gearbox?
i will watch for you reply..or you can email me directly. n82mk at aol dot com

regards, tom
tom peterson

I tend to agree, it is most likely the 3 and 4 gear synchros, but what oil are you using in the trany? It should NOT be gear oil but the same oil that you are using in the engine. Also as the weather gets colder the trany will likely get harder to shift until the car is warmed up.
David Werblow

Jerry, it is a long shot, but after sitting for few months the clutch could be sticking to the flywheel or the pressure plate on an intermitement basis. This would cause the grinding since the clutch is not fully disengaging from the gearbox-hence the interference/noise. This could be the cause why it is erratic and changes from one gear to the next. I can assume that it worked fine prior to putting it away for a while. If it ran fine earlier, then time had to play a role and the one thing that time affects is the clutch sticking to something. You would have noticed synchros going south most likely while you were driving it in the past. Double clutching won't allow the gears to change speeds cause the clutch could be stuck.
Mark
Mark Strang

Jerry:

Have you checked the oil level in the transmission? The cars are known to mark their territory with whatever oil is handy - engine or transmission. I had a rough shifting trans that cleared up completely when I re-filled the trans to proper level.
John Masters

david, you are the first person i have heard of that uses engine oil in the gearbox. lots of stuff in the archives about what EP gear oil guys are using in the gear box. you just have to make sure it has a low sulphur content. GL-4 or GL-3. the MG service manual "key to recommended lubricants" specifies EP transmission oil. i can always learn something new, what is your approved data source for the engine oil in the gearbox? thank you. regards, tom

tom peterson

David, absolutely NO to using engine oil in a t-series tranny!!! Must be 90wt, Tom covers it well above. Jerry, I suggest starting a new thread about the shifting, since this one is about fuel additives. George
George Butz



Good idea, George - about starting a new thread to deal with shifting issues. I allowed this one to "morph" due to two poblems facing me. I'll be back on task by Monday, hopefully. Still many questions are befalling me.

Thanks to ALL thus far!

Jerry

Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

I suspect that David is thinking of an MGB transmission. Bud
Bud Krueger



Having a "glitch" in starting a pertinent gear-shifting thread. Until I get that sorted, let me know if any of you have additional trouble-shooting ideas.

Regards,

Jerry

Jerry Chandler 1951 TD

This thread was discussed between 18/10/2013 and 09/12/2013

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