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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Halogen rear/stop bulbs in TD/TF

I keep seeing ads for Halogen 1157 rear/brake lights. I believe they would fit the standard socket, and they appear small enough to fit under the round glass (and I presume, under the square tail light, as well) of the TD and TF lenses.

For instance, JC Whitney are offering these 2-element bulbs - SJ810439B for $10 each.

I know too, we've been over this on the BB, at least once, if not more, and that a relay is reccommended.

Has anybody actually made this up-grade? If so, what are the results?

It seems to me that 30 watts on braking, has got to be better than the standard candle!

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.



Gordon A. Clark

Gordon,

I don't know if all 1157 Halogen type lamps are the same but I did try them in my MGA and for a short time in my TC. What I noticed is that, alone, the brake filament was much brighter than a conventional lamp. But, once the running lamp filament was lit there was little brightness change to distinguish when the brakes came on. It seems that the low power side is almost too bright and washes out the high power side. And yes I did have them wired correctly.

Maybe all lamps are not like these - I got these from the local NAPA store.

Dave
David Ahrendt

There are some interesting LED 1157 replacement bulbs which are VERY bright, and they also come on quicker than normal incandescents.

I've got some older (not quite as bright) LED replacements in my '68 midget, and plan on putting some in the TD when I get a chance.

Scott
Scott Linn

I'm considering upgrading the stop/tail lights in my TD as well, but not sure whether to go LED or halogen and what, if any, related electrical issues (like relays) they might involve. Here are three websites I've got bookmarked that you may find useful:

http://www.superbrightleds.com/1157.htm

http://www.welcome.to/cvb

http://www.cardomain.com/shoplist~b~APC~t~Exterior+Replacement+Bulbs

B Sieling

Timely discussion!

I plan on testing the following 1157 LEDs:

1157-PBC-R36 Red LED PCB Cluster lamp
36 LED unit
http://www.superbrightleds.com/nostock_newleds.htm

and

24 LED 1157 Bulbs
"The unique design of our 24 led bulbs feature 18 LEDs aiming out the end plus 6 radially mounted LEDs aiming out the sides. This produces a more complete and even lens fill than conventional LED bulbs."
http://www.superbrightleds.com/1157.htm

I'm just waiting for the 36 LED unit to be stocked (new item) and its specifications (size) to be available.

I look forward to reading other people's comments.

Larry

Larry Shoer

Its interesting to read some of the notes concerning tail/signel/brake LED bulbs posted on the superbrightleds.com site:

"For best results the LED color should be the same as the lens color. A red lens will filter out all but the red portion of the light so if the light is all red, none or very little light will be blocked by the lens."

"LED brake/tail lamps may not work with some thermal flasher units due to their extremely low current draw. These installations will require an electronic flasher unit, available at your auto parts store. Try to find flashers designed to work with LED bulbs, often HEAVY DUTY flashers will."

This one I found very interesting and actually surprising:

"LED bulbs are generally not as bright as standard incandescent bulbs, they have many advantages over filament bulbs (longer life, faster on/off times, lower power consumption, more vivid colors) but brightness is not one of them."

"Do not use LED bulbs in the same housing with head lamps, the heat will cause them to fail quickly"

"Some of our bulbs are available with Narrow or Wide viewing angle. The Wide angle (approx. 100 degree beam) will light up more area but dimmer than the Narrow angle. The Narrow angle (approx. 15 degree) will illuminate a smaller area but brighter than the Wide angle."

Lots to think about!





B Sieling

I bought Halogen lamps from Jeff Zorn. http://www.lbcarco.com/cgi-bin/gen5?nextform=/halogen.html&o=&a=&t=_top
They are 10/35Watts. The globes are smaller than a standard bulb, so they fit well.

I have not tested them yet.

FYI, there is a good brake light article in the December 2004 issue of the TSO. The file on the CD-rom is 200411.pdf.

In addition to the halogen lamps, it discusses turn signal flasher issues, 3rd brake lights and adding 4 way flashers. The only thing missing is a brake relay.

I have added these modifications to my car along with a brake relay (from Dave DuBois' information). As soon as I get my rear fenders on, I'll be able to test it out.
Evan Ford - TD 27621

I'll try to keep this short, but I could really wax prolific on this one. LEDs can have very high beam intensities, like flashlights. Wonderful if you're in the beam's pattern. Terrible if you're off to the side. Our tail lights are mounted very low and depend upon the lens properties of the lights to put the light from the light bulbs where it's usefull. The light bulb filament radiates over a large angle and fills the field quite well. I've tried the LEDs. I'd say that the only type that seems to be beneficial might be one of the 36, or so, LED types working as a high mount stop light.

I have installed the halogen bulbs from Jeff Zorn and find them to be a bit of an improvement over a standard 1157. Worth the money? Questionable.
Bud Krueger

Evan,

The article in the DEC. TSO was by Bud Kruger (thanks, Bud - good article), but left some unanswered questions, hence my raising the issue again.

I'm still getting confusing signals.

All I know is that the "1950 to 1954 State-of-the-art" rear illumination by today's needs, is entirely inadequate.

First, nobody mentioned the relay that was brought up on the BB last year, when I first broached the subject. Somebody suggested that if I didn't use relays, I would have a conflaguration in my wiring.

In Bud's article, I could not see any reference to relays, but there was reference to using heavy-duty thermal bi-metallic type flasher. I have already made this mod and now want to select either halogen of LED tail lamps.

Can one therefor, simply put in either the LED or halogen bulb, without a relay, but with a heavy duty flasher relay, and without fear of overload?

Secondly, the lamp that Larry Shoer refers to, the AUT1157-0ER-014V, can be found at http://www.ledtronics.com/ds/aut1157/. Here one can see a good physical diagram of the actual unit, and it appears to be 1.04" in dia. and I question if this will fit in the standard TD/TF socket without interfering with the lens. The other less important issue is that each LED lamp is $24.50 compared to the halogen ones at $10.

Thirdly, I'm wondering if the phenomenon that David Ahrend encountered with halogen bulbs in his TC, will also occur with the LEDs, and that is, insufficient difference in brightness on braking.

Before I go and plunk down $69 (plus shipping) for sets of these 2 bulbs, I want to find out who has done what.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Don't think i noticed in the above posts that LED's are wired neg ground. They do not work just by reversing the wires (at least i was told this by someone who had positive ground LED's made for his TC).
You might check this before ordering.
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Hi Gang;

A couple of years ago I installed what were described as Halogen bulbs in my 52 TD. In today's traffic the standard bulbs mounted low on the fenders did not satisfy my safety instincts. I just checked one of the replacement bulbs and it is marked as an Asian product identified as 1034 12v 32/40. There is an appreciable difference between tail and stop/turn light intensity even with the lense (rectangular) installed. I did have problems burning out the anemic brake light switches available on today's market however. Also, I would not install these bulbs if I had the replacement plastic lenses due to the heat generated.

To overcome the burned out brake light switch problem I finally installed the aforementioned relay which works! With the relay installed the only current draw across the brake light switch is that required to close the relay. The remainder of relay is quite capable of handling the current draw of the two brake light bulbs to the point that I recently installed a combination third tail/brake light with the brake light on the same relay circuit. The third light unit is made from the magnetic base of an inexpensive Walmart CB antenna topped off with a Triumph motor cycle tail light. Total cost about $35 and it sits on top of the gas tank looking out over the spare tire. It can be easily unpluged and removed for shows.

Now if I get hit from behind by a cellphone talking, fingernail painting, hair combing driver of a rice burner I have done about all I can to make up for genetic deficiencies.

Good Luck
Dick
Safety Fast



Dick McCutcheon

This is another reminder to me of why these discussions are so good. While carefully examining the different specifications of the LED units, I completely omitted the fact that my TD is positive ground. Unlike a light bulb which doesn't care about polarity, LEDs do. The LED unit won't light when inserted into my lamp base.

It may be possible to rewire the lamp base to reverse the polarity of the contacts. I don't intend to do this.

I am in the process of tracking down a spare brake light switch that is of older manufacture (hence more robust electrical contacts). I realize I can always do the relay thing, coupled to a modern brake light switch.

While a realize the brake light switch is a sealed unit, has anyone tried to open the unit to see if it can be renewed? (Or, perhaps this is a new thread!)

In any event, I'm giving up on the idea of an LED unit for my positive earth TD.

Larry
Larry Shoer

This would work for my license plate light as it is a "third brake" light... it was changed to a Triumph style light.....
An email to them might produce a positive ground LED sold separately

http://www.bulbsthatlast4ever.com/hot.html
gordon lawson

A couple of things: 1) I did not write the article about lights in the December TSO. I seem to recall that it was written by Hal Kramer. 2) to the best of my knowledge, all LED replacement bulbs are wired for negative ground. 3) I use a NAPA brake light switch and have had zero failures in 10 years, including halogen bulbs. 4) the high mount lamp that Dick suggests is an excellent idea. I'm building mine in a similar manner, but with a multi-LED lamp. 5) if you convert your turn signals into emergency flashers -- move the power source to an unswitched source, such as the horn circuit.
Bud Krueger

Bud,

You are right. My apologies to Hal. I just checked it and hope Hal doesn't banish me to someplace where ther are no MGs.

As Larry points out, this brings up a whole bunch of new scenarios(?). I am reluctant to change the polarity of my TF, but I'm afraid the handwriting is on the wall.

While on the lighting bit, I am going to buy a set of the Sylvania extra bright headlights. They actually have a listing for the TD and TF. A pair for $49.

I'll report after I've installed them.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qu.
Gordon A. Clark

Get your halogen bulbs from Anthony Pearson in OZ. Classic and Vintage Bulbs. Web > www.welcome.to/cvb < I think he makes and supplies them to all the usual parts suppliers. Great service and good prices. I have them in the D, stop and tail and headlamps on my YT and they are a 100% improvment. I also have them in the turn and headlamps of my TC but use LED inserts in the D lamps made by a chap in Oregon. Wonderful improvement over the originals. Terry
Terry O'Brien

Gentleman - Let's see if I can bring some technical information together for everyone regarding halogen bulbs/LEDs/brake light switches and relays. Halogen bulbs if used and if a higher wattage than the standard 1157 bulb mean that they will draw more current. This means that they will: 1) cause the brake light switch to burn out quicker unless a relay is added to the circuit and 2) will cause the turn signal flasher to flash at a faster rate. To correct the flasher rate, one will have to go to either a heavy duty flasher (nor desirable) or try to find a flasher that is calibrated for a larger current flow.

Let's digress a moment here and talk about flashers and why a heavy duty flasher is not desirable. The heavy duty flasher can be "thermal" or electronic, the same as the regular flasher. The difference between the regular and heavy duty flashers is that the regular flasher is calibrated to flash at a fixed rate for a set amount of current (equal to the current required for two 21 watt bulbs). If there is greater current through the system (such as a short to ground, or additional light bulbs) the flasher will flash rapidly. Conversely, if there is less current through the system (such as when one bulb is burned out, the flasher will flash very slooowly or not at all. They are designed that way to let the driver know that something is wrong with their turn signals. A heavy duty flasher is designed to flash at a steady rate regardless of how much current is being drawn by the system. This way additional lights (such as on a trailer) can be added to the system without changing the flasher rate. This is accomplished by having a heating element that is not in the system current path, that will cause the bi-metal switch to open and close and the system current is routed through the switch only, whereas the system current in a regular flasher is run through the heating element and then through the switch, so that system current controls the opening and closing of the flasher switch. Since the heavy duty flasher flashes at a set rate regardless of system current, it does not alert the driver if something cause the turn signals to quit working (such as a burned out bulb). There may be some more sophisticated flashers on the market today that can be adjusted for system current, but if there is, I am unaware of them.

Now on to LEDs. LED lights draw a very small amount of current and unless they have a "make up" current path (which I understand, some do), they will not draw enough current to make the flasher operate, so again, we are back to using a heavy duty flasher (which is still undesirable. The other problem with the LED light, as previously discussed, is that they are polarity sensitive. This can be corrected by either getting them in the correct polarity (which may not be easy), rewire the base of the bulb (which could ruin the bulb, or bring the car into the 21st centaury and convert it to negative ground. Of the three choices, the last is by far the easiest.

To summarize, if you use high wattage halogen bulbs, you will definitely need to add a relay and arc suppression circuit to your brake light circuit (see my instructions at:
http://www.omgtr.ca/technical/brakelightrelay/brakelightrelay.htm and you will need to decide how to keep the flasher flashing at the correct rate (use a heavy duty flasher and do without the notification of problems) or find a flasher that can have it's flashing rate set for varying amounts of current. If you find LED lights that will work in all the other previously discussed situations, you will be taking a load off of the brake light switch so there is no need for a relay and arc suppression circuit. You will however need to find a LED bulb that has a "make up" current path or find flasher that will work at the lower current level - again either a heavy duty flasher (not desirable) or a flasher that can be set for variable current draws.

I don't remember who said that they were looking for a NOS Lucas brake light switch to use with the halogen bulbs so they didn't have to use a relay, but my recommendation is use a relay anyway. The halogen bulbs are going to draw more current than the original incandescing bulbs and that will shorten the life of even the original Luca switch. I got NOS Lucas switches for our TD and MGB, but then put in the relay and arc suppression circuit for additional protection (and I am still using the original 1157 bulbs).

Somebody also asked if the switches can be opened and repaired. The answer is no. I have opened the switches up to analyze the failure, but they can only be opened with a hacksaw and that results in a switch that even if it was repaired, one would not want to put back in the brake circuit since it would then be an open path for the brake fluid to reach the ground. Also once the switch contacts burn, they generate enough heat to remove the temper from the spring blade that carries the contact, rendering them unusable.

I hope that this rather lengthy post will prove helpful to all who are considering changing the tail/brake light bulbs and will be informative as to what all must be considered in doing so. This will also explain why I am rather slow to make the move to try and "improve the tail/brake lights on our TD (I'm waiting for one of you to perfect the process and then send me the information while I am busy restoring fuel pumps for everyone).

One additional item. While working with your tail/brake lights, it would be a great time to make sure that all the ground points under the car are sound. For information on ground point preparation, see my article at: http://www.omgtr.ca/technical/General%20Technical/grounding.htm
Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

A couple of quick points:

-The brake relay is an easy addition. It does not require running additional wiring. Everything can be installed right next to the stock brake light switch.

-The Moss third brake light is a HELLA european rear fog light on a magnetic base. It is too short to position it on the fuel tank of a TD. View to the rear is blocked by the spare wheel/tire. Also the disconnect plug is on the wrong end of the included wire. It's not near the lamp, but about 8 feet away. I reversed this wire and have the light placed on the spare wheel. I will either leave it here, or will have to make an extension to allow the light to stand on the fuel tank.

Evan Ford - TD 27621

Evan,

As the guy who designed the Hella light for Moss Motors (164-005)I'm afraid I disagree with you about it being "too short". I designed it to fit on my '53 TD as over the last 25 years I've been rear-ended three times. The light is short, but can easily be seen over the spare tire and is VERY BRIGHT!
I put the plug on the long end of the wire as I didn't want the long wire waving in the breeze when the light wasn't on the vehicle. I also wanted to hide any evidence of its exsistence at shows where I would remove the light and hide the short plug pig tail.
I also put a soft, waterproof gasket on the bottom of the magnetic base so it would not mark your paint.
I suppose you can't please every body!
Craig Cody at Moss has had one on his supercharged TD for years.
Another option is the "Triumph motorcycle" tail light.
This lamp was also used on early Triumph TR 2 cars as well. It is available from Moss under part #544-100 and is a clever option as it will bolt directly in place of the original Lucas license plate light. You can easily wire it by using the factory supplied black ground wire for your brake light lead as the light will ground itself through the mounting. Be sure to do the wire swap at the end of the harness under the rear apron! The "Triumph" light will act as a third tail/license plate light with the lights on and will glow brightly when you step on the brakes.

Ciao for now, Ben T.
Ben Travato

Ben,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply there was anything bad about the light you designed. Quite the contrary, I'm happy with it.

For my use, I will only remove the light while at car shows. Having the plug near the light makes this easy. That way I don't have to re-run the wire.

On the height, on my car it is mostly blocked from view. Check these pictures to see what I mean. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eford321/album?.dir=fc3a&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eford321/my_photos
(Please excuse the dust and the dirty garage!)

The first picture shows the light on the spare wheel viewed from the rear. (Note: I flipped the mounting bracket 180* so it would sit better in the wheel.) The second shows the light on the tank, and the third shows the light from the side.

As you can see, the light is mostly blocked from the rear. It would be even worse if I tilted it back to level.

Maybe my tank sits lower? Or my tire is higher? Suggestions?

Thanks,
Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

What about the extra heat generated by halogen bulbs in the round tail light assembly used in the late TD and TF. Not much room between the bulb and the rubber boot inside the light.

Jan
Janson Hurd

Well...not much intrest for TD's ...but on my TF 1500 I modified my harness and the reflectors (at top corners of the tub) to also be turn & stop lamps. These are quite "higher up" on the back of the car. I now have both working so 2 lamps on each side of the car. Not sure that would work on a TD because it would not be "orginial" and, more importantly, might be "blocked" by the lisence plate mount on the TD? I also modified my fog & driving lamps on front of car so I can do the same with them. The fogs/driving lamps are wired through a 3 poss switch in accordance with "Lucas standard wiring": (dim/off/flicker) or up=on, middle=off, down=work as turn signals via a relay from the flasher. Seems to work fairly well.
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Bought halogen bulbs from Jeff Zorn and put them in. The heat was so tremendous that the rubber began to smell. That is with the brake on for a few seconds simulating sitting at a red light. Yes every thing is wired correctly. TOok them out and have not tried to re-insert. The compartment of the rear lights is so confining that the heat cannot escape. Trying to calculate another way to let heat dissipate

Ellis Carlton CalineEl@aol.com
Ellis Carlton

I've got the Moss third brake light on my TD as well. Like Evan, I rotated the base 180, but for a different reason: to allow the cord to come out towards the rear of the car (it ships with the cord coming out toward the front of the car), so it can just hang down the surface of the tank behind the spare. I have the extra wire coiled up and cable-tied under the rear apron. If I want to disconnet, I reach under the apron to do so. Regarding visibility, I do wish it were a little taller and have also tilted the lamp upward to improve that. But drivers of most modern cars, particularly SUVs, are going to be viewing the lamp not on the level with it but from a higher point of view, lessening the blocking by the spare. Another option perhaps is to move the brake light to the right side of the tank where the tire is less of an issue.
Bryan
52 TD MkII
B Sieling

Evan & co,

It would appear that your spare is much higher than either Codys or my car. Could be just the fit of your body and spare carrier. Also it looks like your tire is of a taller profile than our modern Michelin shod cars. On both of our cars the light unit is tilted up at about 20-30 degree angle, but is VERY visible from the rear. I suppose you could put a small spacer between the base and lamp to get yours up higher.
About 4-5 years ago I experimented with halogen 1157 bulbs. I was worried about the heat dissapation from the bulbs as they opperate much hotter than a standard bulb. I set up a test rig with a new MGA tail light assembly and a battery. After about 10 minutes the heat from the halogen bulb distorted (melted) the shape of the plastic lens. It might not be a issue with our glass lens, but I don't think the rubber would take the abuse. So I scrapped the idea of offering the halogen bulb. The LED conversions look promising though.

Ciao, Ben.
Ben Travato

If we can get LED bulbs that will produce the correct light coverage and the brightness that is needed, they would definitely be a better route to go than high power halagons. The LEDs don't produce any heat of any concern and the turn signal flasher can be made to operate properly just by adding a resistor of the proper resistance to make the flasher think that there is a 1157 bulb at the end of the wire. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

My tires are 5.60 x 15. I'm guessing the metric radials have a shorter aspect ratio than the original style tire. ...I'm being careful not to kick off a radial/bias debate! ;^)

On the LED front, I have a 1157 style LED bulb I bought for a snowmobile a few years back. (I later found the snowmobile used 12 VAC not 12 VDC.) I thought I might experiment with it down the road. It is a negative gound unit, so I would have to convert it or the car. On this bulb, it lights a portion of the LEDs when the running lights are on, and lights all of the LEDs when the brake circuit is charged. It also has a rotating effect to draw more attention under braking.

For now, I'm going to focus on finishing my restoration. ( only a few weeks left to go...)


Evan Ford - TD 27621

Positive earth LED light units.

I was just contacted via e-mail by Andy Speakman, a BSA rider. He called my attention to a UK source for positive earth LED light units:

http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyleds.htm

This is the first source of which I am aware that has LED units that work on a positive earth T series car.

Remaining issues that need to be considered if using LED brake/stop lights are:
- size: does the unit fit within the glass lens
- intensity and beam pattern (to insure visibility)
- selection of an appropriate resistor (so that the flasher works properly) or substitution of a different flasher

I know I won't be getting to this project anytime soon. I am interested in reports from anyone who continues the investigation.

Larry
Larry Shoer

I'm hooking up a third brake light on my TF and I'm puzzled by the lucas wiring. If I hook up my third light to one of the brake light wires, won't it blink if that side's turn signal is blinking?
I've mounted a "sawed off" trailer hitch light to my luggage rack, after inserting an MG logo under the lens. I printed the logo on overhead transparancy paper and hope it won't block too much light.
Craig- 55TF

My third brake light is a "Triumph" motorcycle Lucas style used as a license plate light... the builder ran one wire from the "switched" side of the brake light switch along the frame and up to the light.
When i added the brake light switch relay, i just attached it the same way.....One wire in and two out......
gordon lawson - TD 27667

This thread was discussed between 22/03/2005 and 19/04/2005

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