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MG TD TF 1500 - Heater or no heater

Here's my problem. Prior to my restoration, I had a little square heater I got from Moss many years ago and installed it. It didn't do too bad for heat but I did not like the looks of the hoses and holes in the firewall so I did not re-install it. Now, I kinda wish I had but sill the problem of an ugly installation. Does anyone have a photo of the under-hood view of an attractive install? Is there any other way to route the hoses other than go through the firewall?

thanks, Bill



Bill Brown

Although I took my hot water from the thermostat elbow and ran it along the driver's side of the valve cover....if one took it off the passenger side of the elbow and ran it back under the carbs to the firewall, and the return out of the firewall and straight to the lower rad hose, you would have the hottest water and it would hardly be noticed.....
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

bill, however you decide to tap and route, i suggest a moss supplied triumph part. it is a through-the-firewall fitting. item 635-220. regards, tom
tom peterson

You would hardly see the routing....


gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Gordon, I like that idea, that would look clean. I just did not want to run hoses across the carbs and drill into the firewall just below the battery. I had it that way before and did not like that look.

Bill
Bill Brown

You can put the holes on the little flat panel just below the angled piece...mine went straight in... I found rubber grommets at Can Tire that fit the hose perfectly and as my firewall is black, you don't notice anything. That panel on your looks black as well?


gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Bill,
I just purchased this 1950 TD with an after market heater installed. They took the hose from the bottom of the radiator to the back of the engine block, cut it and inserted the heater hoses. The red hose from the radiator has a T connection with what looks to be a petcock. Not sure why. The line then continues through the firewall between the battery and the end of the battery compartment. It then returns to the rear of the engine block. Since it is all new to me I don't know how well it works but the dressing of the hoses is pretty neat. If I keep this setup I will probably add Grommets to the firewall.
Good Luck,
Mort


Mort TD 1851

Mort...is the 'petcock' a valve that allows you to turn off the hot water going into the heater? That you will need in the summer.....

If that little hose connects to the bottom of the rad on that side (I can't tell from the photo) they have added an outlet (or have they just tapped the tap?)they then added the rear head fitting .... Your water would go into the heater from the back of the block and return to the bottom of the rad.....
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Gordon, I have not had a chance to really study the set up. My first thought is that the petcock would turn off the water completely. To the heater and the engine. That would indicate a real DPO. I'm not familiar with the original set up but I will trace it as time permits. I hope it is as you suggested and just turn off the water to the heater. My other concern is the reliability of that petcock since the health of my engine depends on it not failing. Mort
Mort TD 1851

The water going to the heater system is basically a bypass and doesn't affect your engine cooling.

It looks like the heater was taking hot water from the back of the head (a common place to take it) and running it to the heater....then returning it to the radiator and using the radiator drain as an inlet (the rad has a brass petcock just about where I see the hose in your photo enter the bottom of the rad).....the little knob/valve/whatever that is, seems to be just inline with the return hose...which would stop the water going through the heater when turned off?
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Here's how I did it in 1957 when I installed my heater. The key is the copper pipe that runs under the exhaust manifold where it picks up extra heat.

In the attached photo, note 1) that the outlet on the thermostat boss, has been welded over. 2) the lower pipe has been ground away to allow an elbow to be welded to it (the TF 1500 elbow already has this). 3) and 4) show where I've used asbestos lamp wick to insulate the rubber couplings from the heat of the manifold - also provides vibration absorbtion. 5) shows the return going into the fitting in the rear plate.

This system has been installed by quite a few people and with good results. It was written up in the TSO a few years ago. Its very neat and efficient.

Some one will always argue that the flow pattern is changed. That's true and it happens in the middle of the head, but I know of no problems from this.

If I had to do it again, I would use the Mojave heater see:- http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/mojave-heater.html.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.


Gordon A Clark

Bill,
Here's a configuration that doesn't look too bad.
I turned the thermostat housing around and this is the source of the hottest water without drilling/tapping.
The bypass branch on the steel radiator return line is now the heater return- no cutting/brazing/welding necessary.
I went to the extreme of clearing everything (except tool box) off the firewall and ran the heater hoses in behind the block (a whole lot of effort), but one could be run the hoses through the original holes and be pretty discrete and have a very neat installation.

What you do not want to do is tap the water at the back of the head. This is not hot water, just warm. ... and if you contemplate tapping the thermostat housing and THINK you are running a return to the back of the head, you'll have ZERO CIRCULATION and no heat.

Gordon,
Your system is RETURNING water to the pump, not SUPPLYING water from the suction side; your idea of heating the water by running close to the exhaust manifold is counterproductive... it is heating the coolant before entering the engine.

My image 1: Thermostat housing turned 180 degrees; brass bypass elbow has a 2" piece of 1/2" copper inserted about a half inch and soldered in to attach hose.


Jim Northrup

Image 2: return hose up from firewall running over top of intake & exhaust manifolds.


Jim Northrup

dern nabit! didn't get image uploaded!
Jim Northrup

Image 3: return running to the bypass branch of the pump suction tube.

(I love all that silver metal! ...the brass stuff, too!)


Jim Northrup

Jim....don't mix up the Gordons.....

Here are a few temps taken with an infrared thermometer.....


gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Mort,
Unless I missed something in this thread, that black "T" fitting that connects your red heater hose with the black heater hose at the back of the engine is a flush connection,, When you want to flush the cooling system, a garden hose is connected there to force clean water through the system, and out to a colection bucket,,,,usually througn another plastic angled pipe that attaches to the rad fill cap...
.
.
.
SPW
Steve Wincze

Jim,

Your installation is very pretty. Well done!

Contrary to your comment that my scheme is counter productive, I take umbrage to this as it has been proven to work and work well. My own system has been producing excellent heat for 53 years.

The chap up the road from me, replaced hoses running through the engine compartment of his TC, with my system, and he reports he has never been so comfortable.

I do agree with you that the flow however, appears counter-productive as the flow from the rad and the return from the rear plate, meet in the middle of the head. So what?

One added benefit of my system, is that it increases cooler water flow around cylinder #4 and to a lesser degree, #3 where there tends to be a heat build-up.

I know of 4 others who installed my system, based on the article in the TSO, and all report ... so far, so good.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

I just ordered one of the Mohave heaters for the TD.

$ 200.00 from NAPA. Well see how it works out compared to the Arnolt I've got in the TF.
LaVerne

Mr. Clark,
If you're happy with your system, so be it. Two of our TDs had this plumbing, so it is not uncommon. I'm not suggesting you switch it around. It would be hotter, though, if tapped from the front of the head, won't you admit.

When someone is seeking advice, why not point this out?

More importantly, advising someone to tap the back of the head could easily lead them down that primrose path of failure, because IF they pick up water at the thermostat housing, THERE WILL BE NO CIRCULATION, ie. NO HEAT. They are both on the discharge side of the pump- no pressure differential, no circulation. No matter where you draw the water out of the engine, it has to return to the suction side of the pump to have flow through the heater.

It was pointed out by a few different people last year that your system is NOT drawing water from the radiator hose, and NOT returning it to the back of the head. The head is under pressure from the pump and the lower hose is in suction leading to the pump intake. Your copper line is preheating water that is supposed to cool the engine. Obviously not catastrophic where you're at, but driving through the Mojave Desert could be another story.

"One added benefit of my system, is that it increases cooler water flow around cylinder #4 and to a lesser degree, #3 where there tends to be a heat build-up."
Just the opposite, you've reduced that flow. 100% of the pump flow runs through the passage on the side of the block to the back and then runs past #4 first and then forward to the others. By diverting some out the back, the coolant running through the head is reduced, but obviously it isn't enough to make much of a difference.

I had ours fitted up your way until guys here on the forum pointed out the real water circulation in these blocks. Last year, a fellow from the UK wondered why his heater never got hot. He listened to some bad advice, and we don't want to mislead anyone.

Steamfitter Jim
Jim Northrup

....the hot water take off point has certainly been discussed to great lengths....I have had both locations....back of head and thermostat elbow....one was hot (back of head), one was hotter (elbow).... one kept my right knee warm and the other my whole right leg.... neither are capable of keeping your whole body warm in a car with rather primitive top and side curtain fit......you still need gloves, hat and winter coat to keep warm in the 32F/0C temps.....(when most owners have them put away anyway....)

Each of the ways I did it didn't change the basic design of the cooling system at all....something I was happy with.....
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Are we beating an old dog to death with this heater diatribe, over and over.
Mine is like your and it puts out tons of BTU's, I even have to surn off the fan on 40 deg days.
Colin Stafford TF6688

Jim and others,

I didn't intend to sound trite and if I did, I'm sorry.

Your argument is valid. In my initial installation, with the back-plate blocked, and the hose coming from the heater unattached, a garden hose in the radiator fill, I ran the engine to ensure that I was getting flow from the heaterhose (and that was intended to go into the rear plate) and happily, I did get flow.

Every time an argument similar to yours comes up, I have to defend it, and my only defence is that it works.

Your comment "... Your copper line is preheating water that is supposed to cool the engine. Obviously not catastrophic where you're (at), but driving through the Mojave Desert could be another story."

Again Jim, that seems to make sense, but I drove my TF to Gatlinburg on IS 81 and 40 for many non-stop miles, for the MG2006 International, where for 4 or 5 days, daytime temperatures were in the 95°f range, and not once did the car overheat, not even in the mountain sections.

Contrary to the norm, the copper pipe is not supposed to cool the engine water, it's supposed to pick up additional heat as it passes under the exhaust manifold and into the heater. And that's why I always have enough heat, even today when its +5°C. My car is cosy and arm.

As I have indicated, I've had to defend this argument many times. I don't know hat more I can say.

My whole purpose right from the beginning, was to design a heater installation that was neat and without ugly hoses passing over and around the engine.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon A Clark

Thanks all, you have given me many options and ideas on routing the heater hoses for a neat installation. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and would be lost without it. Jim, I'm not sure I totally understand where you went through the engine compartment into the car? Is it directly behind the block?

thanks, Bill
Bill Brown

Bill,
Yes, I routed the hoses through the firewall just below the original hoses. The only practical way of doing that is with the tub off. I got rid of everything above that including the battery tray. Wiring and plumbing are accessible below the removable stainless cover.

Everyone else,
The point I am trying to drive home is very simple-
there are 3 ways to plumb the heater:
one way givees a bunch of heat;
another way provides more heat;
the third way has no circulation and ZERO heat.

Those promoting tapping into the back of the head can mislead someone badly.
Jim Northrup

Here's the upper firewall sans battery box, horns, oil, regulator, hoses, wires, etc.

Note the copper elbow sneaking in behind the block.

It helps to SUBMIT the image after it is selected!


Jim Northrup

I didn't like the idea of running rubber hose around the manifold either. So I did mine with copper.


LaVerne

little more cramped with the blower.


LaVerne

Jim Northrup,
I like your setup and am considering changing mine this winter. Right now my heater water is from the tap at the back of the engine and the lower left corner of the radiator. I could plug both of these. See image above.

I noticed in one of your photos that you have an air filter on your carb. I have a Judson Supercharger with a carb in the same position as yours but just a horn shaped air intake port. Where can I get more info. on this filter setup and how necessary is it?
Thanks,
Mort
Mort TD 1851

Mort,
Befor you go and plug up the fittings that you now have on your rad and the back of the head, you might want to consider leaving a capped fitting at each location so you can attach a hose to thoroughly flush the cooling system when needed.... The back of the head is a common area for "stuff" to accumulate...

SPW
Steve Wincze

Mort,
Marshall blower has 1 1/4" SU. The air filter is a $20 cheapo Chrome VW dune buggy filter off of ebay. It has an open foam element, so not a great filter, but not very restrictive, if that is important to anyone. It came with the tube for the crankcase vent, so I plumbed the valve cover to it. Convenient. The trick to mounting it... a few hours of machining a chunk of aluminum into a 2 bolt flange & cute air horn the filter clamps over. If you want, I'll take a picture of it & post it.

Magnacharger has 1 1/2" SU and it came with a black Vokes air filter.
Jim Northrup

Jim N - Please tell how and where you relocated the battery and what size cables are needed for the connection. Would love to see pics if you have them. Thanks - Lou VanK.
Lou Van Koningsveld

Only on this site could one find such passion related to how to plumb a heater with global participents. They go to the mat defending their own designs and seem to get more than a little testy at times. Lets not get too serious too early since it's only November and there is a long winter ahead. We need to pace ourselves guys and leave room for some heat (to coin a phrase) in the really dark days coming.
With very warm personal regards,
Dick Thomas
Dick Thomas

Mort,
Homemade air horn/Air filter adapter. Took the time to cut a groove & add an o-ring for snug fit, not really necessary.


Jim Northrup

Lou,
The battery is under there.


Jim Northrup

I looked for off-the-shelf positive battery cable to run to the starter solenoid, but all that anyone had on the shelf was 6' at most. I snatched some light welding cable and made one. The 4 bangers take so little current, I wouldn't worry about using anything heavier than conventional automotive cable.

The negative ground cable is only about 9" long, but I've added grounds from frame-to-sheet metal everywhere and made sure the heavy ground engine-to-frame is clean and tight. Scraped paint at attachment points.

Slim Honda battery fits nicely lowin back with room for jac & other stuff. Small storage compartment ahead of that. The stainless rectangles are for future rollbar.


Jim Northrup

Worm's-eye-view of battery compartment.


Jim Northrup

OMG....Jim...that is unbelievable...what a beautiful job...well done!
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

(whats the rear end?)
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Thanks. Wish it were well DONE! (8 years and counting) ...finish interior, then throw fenders & running boards on, lights, and finally new convertible top (has hardtop). The end is near.

Rear end is MGB 3.9, supercharged 1250 in it should work OK for a while, but the "correct" engine is bored to 1500 and awaits upgrading.
Jim Northrup

Jim - Very impressive. Looking forward to comparing notes with you at our Michigan club meeting, someday soon. Lou VanK
Lou Van Koningsveld

Meeting Tuesday night in Farmington Hills, but it won't be there. It should be at GOF Midwest.
Looking at your last name, are you in the Holland area?
Jim Northrup

Jim Northrup,
You mentioned a hard top. Was it for a TD? If so where can I get more info. about it?
Thanks,
Mort
Mort TD 1851

Mort,
Dave Jorgensen posted an image of his in the thread "MG TD top."
Below is a picture of our '50 with top about 40 years ago.


Jim Northrup

Mort,
These were made in California about 50 years ago.

This was that same top yesterday. Bottom rubber moulding was glued on today. I hit a glass shop to see about a saftey glass window instead of the flimsy plastic one- they wanted $125. I installed a ragtop on our Miata with a tempered glass window and it adds a touch of class. I might try to score my own plate of saftey glass and then score it myself.

I thought about slapping the top on the red TD in the garage since we head out on a 60 mile round trip tomorrow night, but we'll just bundle up instead. The top doesn't really help much without sidecurtains. Besides, I have to decide whether to use the 2 bow or 3 bow frame. Still can't figure out how to fold it down!?!?

JIM


Jim Northrup

This thread was discussed between 28/10/2010 and 09/11/2010

MG TD TF 1500 index

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