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MG TD TF 1500 - How to make lacquer shine?

Well, as I've posted before, I'm painting my 1950 MGTD myself using lacquer paint (I'll never do that again!). So far, I've completed the body tub, the fuel tank, and the bonnet panels. Thought I'd check in here before I start waxing the paint to see what suggestions are out there for getting the most shine out of lacquer.

The process I've used so far has been as follows:

1. Strip old paint using aircraft stripper. That stuff is awesome! Messy, but does the trick fast. Wear protective clothes because that stuff burns like fire.

2. Wash with metal prep then apply a few coats of primer wet-sanding in between coats. Sand with 1,000 grit sandpaper on the final coat and you get a nice glassy finish.

3. Apply numerous coats of lacquer, again wet-sanding between coats. Final coats sanded with 1,000 and 1,500 grit sandpaper. At this stage, the paint will still look like an orange peel, though it is quite smooth. I mix 50/50 paint to thinner and the paint dries nearly instantly, so it goes on rough.

4. Rub out the final coat using a commercial rubbing compound that is like a liquid paste with a fine grit feel to it. I used an electric circular buffer with a terry cloth pad on it. This removes the orange peel look.

5. Rub again using corn starch and an old t-shirt.

After this, things look decent, but no shine whatsoever. Next step is to apply a wax or polishing compound of some sort to make it shine. I'm thinking I need to apply a polishing compound, again using the electric buffer, but I'm not sure what to use. Any suggestions from the gurus out there?

Robert May
Atlanta, GA
robert

After the final wet sanding I shoot a nice wet cost of clear. Finish comes out shiney but not the wet look of urethane.

Jim H.
J. M. Haskins

Robert: There are top polishing compounds for lacquer paint. They are heavy in oils. See your paint supplier for these. Sometimes they are labeled as swirl eliminators etc.

Chris
Chris Couper

Robert,

Take Chris's advice. My TD was recently painted with two pack paint, flatted back by the sprayer and then polished using a slow speed buff and special polish manufactured by 3M. The finish is absolutely superb. I used a conventional, mild abrasive polish to clean off a couple of finger prints and spoilt the gloss. The only way to get it back was to use the 3M polish and industrial buff.

Cheers


Jan T
Jan Targosz

Wash the car completely, get all that crap off your car. If you have flatted the paint completely with 1500, hire a professional painter who is familiar with power buffers to come over and finish the job. If you are not experinced with this machine you can burn thru faster than you can blink. Most detail shops are not good enough for this job. They just make shiny paint shinier. What ever you do don't clear it, no need to, also gives the wrong look for the car. Also you want to use water based polishes not oil. Oil is for rough cutting, water for polishing.
WCW

I just checked to see what rubbing compound I used and it is "3M Super Duty Rubbing Compound". It was recommended by the paint supplier. I took a closer look at the paint on the hood panels and I still have some orange peel. The instructions on the paint can (Dupont Black Diamond Acrylic Lacquer) say to spray on a "retarder" mixed with lacquer thinner. Not sure what that stuff is. I may sand again, spray another coat of paint on, sand again and use a different rubbing compound. The pad on my buffer is a terry cloth pad, not sure that is the best for this job. The instructions on the rubbing compound say to use a "3M Hookit" pad.
robert

Robert,

3M Rubbing Compound is the out of date stuff you need the special polish for machine buffing. The pad to use is one made from felt. When new they are about 3" thick but you can dress them back with a craft knife when the surface becomes impregnated with used polish.


Jan T
J Targosz

Just got an email from my brother who has done a couple of cars in the last few months...they were not MG's and WCW has a point.. however:

Clear coat over the laquer - you wet
sand the clear coat not the paint - the paint is actually a bit dull and the
clear coat gives it the shine - that is also where the orange peel and
pitting is located. So you sand off a bit of the clear coat with 1500-2000
grit paper. Then you buff it out with liquid rubbing compound. Then you buff
that out with polishing compound, and then a couple of coats of wax - after
the polishing they call the paint raw and it needs wax to protect it and
keep the shine.

Anyway, that is his process... I happened to talk to a chap who used to work for the garage that did my car in '67... he mentioned that they only did laquer, so i'm assuming my black is lacquer as well....???

gordon.b.lawson '53TD

Robert, takes me too long to one finger type,I am out in the shop 9:30/5. Give me a call and I will walk you thru you paint problem. You will get your shine.
WCW

Not being a painter, but having painted a Jaguar and a Porsche with enamel, I wanted to paint my MGA myself. I don't have a paint booth, but thought about painting it in the garage of my home. Does that sound crazy?
Anyway, I checked with a couple of local auto paint vendors, and they didn't carry lacquer. Do I have to go somewhere special to get it?
Is it dangerous to paint with lacquer in a dwelling?
Cleveq

Lacquer paint has been phased out by most paint vendors over the last 10-15 years. The state of the art paint system is now acrylic urethane. It comes in two forms, single stage (SS) and base coat/clear coat (BC/CC). SS paint works like acrylic enamel with the color and gloss applied in one step, while BC/CC uses a flat color layer then a clear gloss layer.

There are great advantages and minor disadvantages to urethane.

Advantages:

Durability - urethane is many times stronger than lacquer or enamel.

Repairability - urethane spot repairs are much easier to blend into existing paint.

Ease of use - errors and problems (dust, runs, etc.) can be corrected after painting with urethane.

Disadvantages:

Cost - urethane is more expensive

Toxicity - urethane is hazardous, requiring special mask filters or a fresh air respirator to apply. (actually, lacquer and enamel are very nasty too.)

Misconceptions:

Too much shine/wet look - urethane easily achieves a higher gloss than lacquer and enamel, but it can be taylored to individual taste. Paint vendors offer flattening agents to adjust the final shine.

I find this argument silly. Comparing the shine of a worn 50 year old laquer/enamel paint job to BC/CC is ridiculous. Does anyone really believe the factory didn't want these cars to shine? I compare it to the radial and bias ply tire discussion.

I'm painting my TD in my garage right now. I built a paint booth using 1"x2" timbers and covered it with plastic sheeting. I use box fans and furnace filters to clean input air and remove overspray from the exhaust. If you want pictures, let me know.

Evan

PS> After all of the work I've done on the body of this TD, I'm going for maximum shine. I'll even the score by driving on "proper" skinny bias ply tires! ;^)

Evan Ford - TD 27621

Evan,alot of good points, I agree on urethane. My problem with BC/CC is the type of shine. It has high gloss for sure, but not the richness of depth of color. I dont think anybody is trying to emulate a 50 yr old lacqure paint job.Putting a flatting agent in your clear coat is asking for trouble,for many reasons. The finest paint finishes are achieved thru color sanding and machine buffing/polishing, downdraft paint booths included.Bottom line, after the paint has been applied, your only half done. Example chinese lacqure box's, they had no spray guns, down draft paint booths, only primitive paints and lots of labour. Gordon.. waxing a freshly painted surface is NOT recomended, even on catylized finishes, the solvents have not completely air dried, park your newly painted car in the sun for awhile then stuff your nose on the fender and sniff. Wax traps these solvents and fogs and dulls the finish slightly. This is the best I can offer now.
WCW

Cleveq, Any time you are combining a volital liquid with air (what a spray gun does) the result is extreemly flamable. Your painting area should be separated from any flame or spark producing item including the electrical contactor on the air compressor. This is why industrial spray booths are built with explosion proof fixtures. Evan mentioned the hazards of breathing the vapors. Read up on all phases before you start. Good luck, I like the guys who are determined to do as much of the work as they can.

Safet Fast!

Jim H.

1953 MG TD
J. M. Haskins

WCW... yes, your right... both vehicles that my brother did were older finishes... he was sprucing up a couple BMW's, so worked on the cured clear coat.
gordon.b.lawson '53TD

Evan,
What kind of paint are you using and what type of respirator?
I don't want to ruin my lungs (or my brain).
Cleve

WCW,

I have seen many deep finishes in Lacquer, enamel, and BC/CC. The depth comes from proper colorsanding and polishing, not just the material. As far as the work involved, there are some great products that cut this effort from days to hours.

Jim,

Good point on electrical contact with vapors. Make sure the fans used are brushless and make sure there is sufficient air exchange to keep the concentration of vapors low. That said, do this only at your own risk. (I'm comfortable that my booth is safe.)

Cleve,

I'm using PPG Deltron. DBC base coat and DCU2021 clear.
For the respirator, I use a HobbyAir fresh air system. I also used it for sandblasting.

Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

One more point, you don't have to colorsand and polish BC/CC any more than you would enamel. Unless you mess up (ie: runs or dirt or excessive orange peel) you can leave the finish as is. BC/CC gives you the option of colorsanding and polishing. With enamel, what you see is what you get, even if you make a mistake.

I'll post some progess pictures in a couple of days. I'm very happy with the pieces I shot today, this PPG deltron goes on great!

Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Well, I was going to leave this subject alone, but... As far as BC/CC, no mater what you do to it, it is still a clear plastic over a dull color. Wet sand and polish till your blue in the face, you still have a depth of clear, not color, any more than if you were to lay multiple sheets of glass on your fender. The finest cars of the world of mass production are machine painted BC/CC and very beautiful. But no way in H**L can they compare to a color sanded/flattend, machine/hand finished solid color paint finish.What is excessive orange peel? Orange peel is orange peel.
Even the Hubble space telescope mirrors were hand polished
WCW

A couple good articles at:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/72938/
gordon.b.lawson '53TD

WCW,

I'm sorry I upset you.

I didn't say BC/CC was BEST for depth. Re-read my comments, I said they all (lacquer, enamel, BC/CC) can deliver deep finishes. I agree with you, that polishing a dark colored single stage paint will look deeper than CC. We agree that polishing is the key to show depth. Here is a link that shows the difference in colorsanding/polishing a factory BC/CC paint job. (Note: I'm not affiliated with anyone on this site.) http://www.autobodystore.com/rsw.htm

As far as orange peel goes, even modern factory finishes have orange peel. Different conditions and techniques will produce different amounts of peel. When I say excessive, I mean more than you are trying to achieve in your paint job. After all, we are talking about DIY paint jobs here.

Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

I've been doing all the painting so far in my garage. I do it with the door fully open and wear a filtered cartridge face mask (not the little cotton type surgical masks).

By the way, what's the difference between "wet sanding" and "color sanding"?
Robert

Robert,

Colorsanding is a strange term, it is actually wetsanding the finish coat to a smooth even finish. (It can be done dry with products like 3M finish film.) It's done with grits above 1000, usually working up through 1200,1500,2000. Each finer grit is used to remove the previous grit's scratch. Then polish is used to bring back the final shine.

What type of paint are you using?

Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Time to add my two cents to the discussion !I cant understand how we can go base coat clear coat when you want to keep your car authentic ! As I understand it ALL T cars were painted with lacquer not BC/CC. I agree that BC/CC is much shinier BUT that was not the way it was done! If you look at the rules at the British Invasion I note in the concours rules that points will be removed for the wrong kind of paint. I guess it depends on what you want to do...hmmm an MGA motor prehaps !
Guy Reynolds

Hi Evan, not upset, just passionate.It appears you know your stuff. A important tip on color/wetsanding. Always start with the finer grit and if that doesn't work then work your way backwards to a coarser grit.Lessens the chance for burn thru. The object of the job is to remove as little material as possible while getting the flattest finish. The finer the grit scratches the faster/easier to bring up to a shine. By the way, just to prove a point to some skeptical club guys, I painted one of my TRs with a roller, yup,roller. Then worked my a$$ off wet sanding and buffing to a nice shine. I quit before it could be a show shine,{way to much work}, but got a nice shine anyway.
WCW

Robert
I painted the three TD’s that I have restored myself. On the first I used DuPont acrylic lacquer paint and the last car DuPont emron paint which proved to be a mistake on my part. The acrylic lacquer is very forgiving and easy for the non professional home painter to use. On the first car I used the base coat/ clear coat system. The emron paint is a two stage paint and is mixed with a catalyst prior to spraying. Like other two stage paints it only has a spray life of about one hour. You say you are using lacquer paint , I assume you are using acrylic lacquer. TD’s were originally painted with nitro cellouse Lacquer paint. (I know the spelling is not correct) If you are having a problem with orange peel check the lacquer thinner you are using. For temperatures from 55 degrees to 70 degrees you should be using DuPont # 3602S. For 70 degrees and up you should use DuPont # 3696 S. If the orange peel still persists add DuPont # 3979 lacquer reducer/ retarder. This retarder comes in pint cans and you only need to add a cap to your spray gun, when mixing your paint. I used this and eliminated all the orange peel. Also with increased flow out of the paint most of the between coat sanding is eliminated. They also have a fish eye reducer/ eliminater, but I don’t remember the #. If you have a compressor which uses oil in the compressor, a certain amount of this oil is in the air you are painting with, which is a major cause of fish eyes. To eliminate this oil in the air, you need to add a small plastic screw on filter where the air line is attached to the spray gun. This little filter also takes out any water or oil that gets by the filter on your air compressor. It is available at your paint supplier. I painted my first car with a paint spray gun from sears and had major over spray and between coat sanding. On the second car I bought a HPLV sprayer from Harbor Freight for about $100. This spray gun holds the paint in a cup mounted to the top of the gun, just like the pro’s use and is gravity fed. It eliminates almost all of the over spray and saves paint and sanding. It is called “Finish Line” by DeVibliss. If you have any more questions on acrylic lacquer paint or some tips on how to cut down on the sanding, email me at mgtd3@msn.com , I’ll answer them off line. Hope this helps. John
John C. Hambleton III

John,
If I want to shoot my car in the garage like Robert, using acrylic lacquer, will I have to use a special closed air system, or can I just use a good filter mask?
Also, how many coats would have to be applied (on average) for a good, to nice paintjob? Do you paint the car all over, at one time, for each coat or do you shoot fenders or hoods and work on each part?
I am really interested in painting the car myself and don't want to use something too dangerous!
I know I am asking a lot of strange (to you guys) questions, but I bought a book on how to paint cars and it is just about worthless. If it were a repair manual, it would just say "take engine apart, fix and replace", it's that bad! It's more like an overview than a painting manual.
Cleve

I did my TD in my Garage. Made a plastic sheeted room (including the floor) and used a couple of large box fans with home heating system filters on them. One on low (bringing in makeup air) and one on high (exhausting air). Wet the floor slightly.(careful of slippery plastic)

HPLV gun is the way to go.

As for a respirator. The place where you purchase your paint will have the correct filters. Make sure you have a good fitting respirator.
Bruce Cunha

WCW,

A roller huh? I bet you had to wetsand with 80 grit! :^) That would be something to see.

Guy, my main reason for going with BC/CC is longevity. I don't want this car to need restoration again in my lifetime (and I'm 40.) Between the urethane finish and the epoxy primer foundation the car will be very well protected. I don't plan on entering the car in concours events, I just plan to enjoy it. If BC/CC existed back in the 50's, the factory would have used it - just like radial tires....

Cleve, The number of coats depends on the paint choice. For enamels and urethanes 2-3 wet coats is usually enough.
Painting an assembled TD would be difficult because of all of the unusual shapes. I'm painting my car in more than 40 pieces, counting the door hinges and fender piping. (the body tub is in one piece.) Painting in pieces also allows access to the mating surfaces, so you can better protect them.
The man that owns autobodystore.com made a good video several years ago, it's available here http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=101s&Category_Code=4VDO

Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Thanks Evan,
Would it be possible to use enamel and paint in my basement without the use of a fresh air respirator for my lungs, or are they too toxic to use by a do-it-yourselfer like me?
In 1983 I painted my 914 and XJ12L in the basement of a house I was renting using enamel. I used a face mask, but back then I don't know if the paint was as toxic as everyone makes the new stuff out to be. I know two pack paint contains something deadly and should only be used with a fresh air respirator. That's why this thread about lacquer got my attention. I thought it was something I could do myself at home.
Oh, by the way, I am going to paint a Bugeye, and not my TF, so I could paint it all together, or in parts. If I get good at the painting, I will paint my TF and two A's. I wanted to practice on something small and not as dear to my heart.
Cleve

Bugeye Sprite don't have as many louvres.

Its been just on 2 yrs and I still haven't gotten around to buffing mine out. (That matte finish looks strangely wonderful in photos imho, especially b&w.)
Will

Cleve, I painted all my TD parts individually outside in semi-shade when the temperature was above 55 degrees with low wind, hanging from a makeshift close line. Yes you have to wait for the right day, but there is to much vapor to paint inside with out a paint booth like Bruce mentions. To my knowledge none of the paper or cloth filter remove vapors, so if you used Bruce’s plastic paint booth you probably need to have a air mask that will remove vapors or that is self contained and fresh air feed. If you are going to paint your car yourself you need to develop a relationship with a professional paint store, one that sells directly to auto body and auto paint shops. I say this because if you buy your paint from an auto parts store, auto paint is not there primary business and some of there answers to you questions may not be form self experience. I bought from a DuPont supplier in the Washington D.C. area called Mattos. They carry all the supplies filters, air masks and tech manuals you will need to paint your car and if you faint stupidity about painting cars( either real or imaginary) they will help you. Also DuPont puts out a book / manual about their products that is available to the pros, try to see if you can talk them into giving you one of them. Hope this helps. John
John C. Hambleton III

Cleve,

Carbon/charcoal filters will remove Isocyanates or ISO. (The bad stuff.) The only problem is the filters are only good for about 40 hours after they are removed from a sealed container. As John said, your local paint shop should have the correct filters for the job.

I don't think I would paint inside a house, unless you are sure you are venting all vapors outside. Especially if you have a furnace/water heater with a pilot light or open flame.

I posted pictures of my paint booth here: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eford321/album?.dir=/ade3&.src=ph&.tok=phbH_1BBeJyEfy.A
It's sounds similar to Bruce's, with box fans and furnace filters. I use two fans (on medium) blowing air into the booth and one exhaust fan (on high) blowing out. This setup provides positive pressure inside the booth to keep dust from getting sucked in through any openings. You can see my exhaust filters taped into a cube in one of the pictures. Notice how much overspray they caught. The filters were white prior to painting.

There's also a picture of one of my Moss headlight buckets after BC/CC. This shows the level of shine without wetsanding and polishing.

Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

What kind of paint do the custom motorcycle guys use that you see on TV? They have no fresh air system, and the finish they get is hard and fantastic!
Cleve

Yes, but they only live till they are 30......!!!! They used to have a saying in theatre... "There is no such thing as an old props builder".
gordon.b.lawson '53TD

Cleve,

They use multiple base coats and then clear the whole thing. They have expensive down draft paint booths that change the air several times per minute. I guess they think they are always breathing fresh air...

Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Evan and Gordon,
I guess that was just wishful thinking on my part! I thought I was on to something. I am over 30, so I guess it would kill me outright.
Cleve

The trick, going from wet sanded finish of lacquer to a shine is, when completely dry, without odour, spray with clean thinner. Not too generously. This will "melt" the surface and make it shine. Once again, when completely dry, polish to get the deep glossy look.
Niels-Erik Constantin Hansen

This thread was discussed between 27/09/2004 and 12/10/2004

MG TD TF 1500 index

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