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MG TD TF 1500 - How to operate the hand crank?

Duh...

Just thought about that little crooked metal stick that is supposed to be used to crank the TD.

How the heck do ya use it without breaking a hand/finger? LOL....


Octagonally confused,


DaveL
dave lackey

Always keep your thumb on the same side as your fingers. i.e. do no have the handle between thunb and fingers. If the engine kicks back the handle will then slip out of your hand - may still not be pleasant, but will not break your arm.
Dave Gibson

Dave L - As Dave G states, keep the thumb tucked. I find the easiest way to start the car withthe starting handle, is to rotate the engine with the handle until it is on a compression stroke withthe handle at the lowest point. Then a quick upward snap of the handle the engine will usually start right up, particularly if it is warmed up. When we first got our TD in 74, it became my wife's everyday transportation vehicle. When the starter died a year or so later, she continued to drive the car, using the starting handle to start it, while I refurbished the starter. She always chuckled about that and the fact that younger men would volunteer to start the car for her when she got the starting handle out, but none of the older men ever stepped forward to help - too many memories of broken wrists. In 1977, when we hosted GoF West in Olympia Washington, we made restarting one's car with the starting handle part of the funkana that we ran. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Dave,
What you will find the crank handy for is when you go to check tappet adjustments!
As for starting the car ...unless you are alone in the garage it would be rare that you would actually "need" it to start the car.
Nice thing about a "T" ...if you are broke down on the side of the road you will not be alone for long!

In my Dodge pick-up ... one leg on crutches in a blinding snow storm ...people will not stop (or even make eye contact)!

In the TF ..I can barely coast to a stop to get out of the car before a crowd gathers! Getting a push and popping the clutch is easier than risking catching a compression stroke with the crank!
Cheers,
David
David Sheward

My process for crank starting goes like this...

1. Set parking brake
2. Select neutral on shifter
3. Insert crank and position it hanging straight down
4. Pull out choke 1/2 way (or 1/4 choke plus increased slow running on earlier cars)
5. Turn on ignition
6. Grip crank handle from underneath, placing all fingers and thumbs UNDER the handle and facing AWAY from you.
7. Standing with knees and face safely clear of the crank, pull briskly upward 1/2 turn. Be ready to let the crank go if it kicks back.
8. If car will not start after a few tries, adjust choke and repeat.
Steve Simmons

Steve,
Pull briskly UP...clockwise or anti-clockwise?

Could be important for oldsheimers like me...LOL


Best regards,

Dave L
dave lackey

dave, you can only pull it up clockwise. There is a taper in the dognut at the end of the crankshaft that will cause the crank to slip out if turned CCW. It also cams the crank out of the dognut when the engine starts.
Bud Krueger

Thanks!

...er...Dognut?

Dang, I still love those quaint words in all things British...

What exactly IS a dognut???
dave lackey

I am an orthopedic surgeon. Yu need to be aware that cranks caused enough fractures in there day that we still call a fracture of the radial styloid, a cheauffer's fracture.
RussOakley

One winter when I was using my TD as a second car in upstate NY I found that in the morning after standing
outside all night it would be very tough on the old battery so I started that car all winter using the hand crank. I found that at night after itr had been standing out in the snow all day that was also the way to get it started when I left work. My wife asked my son who was watching me from the kitchen window one morning (5 years old at the time) what I was doing and he answered, "Daddy's winding up his car". To this day 40 years later we still have to chuckle at that comment.

PS I must have been very careful or very lucky because I never got any busted fingers doing that.

George Herschell
George R Herschell

Have never cranked any T before (don't remember seeing a crank handle before I got one with mine), but am surprised there are risk of all these injuries.

One toy we did have with its crank was a 1930s-ish Austin 7, think its crank handle was permanently in place all the time?

That would turn correctly, never had any kickback... remember trying it out many times when I was 10yo-ish. (6V battery often dead) Then again, maybe its little 700cc engine didn't have much torque anyway. :-P

That had a gravity fed fuelcock too.


hmm... which begs the question...

Crank is only useful when the starter is busted, isn't it?

Otherwise if the battery was flat, there wouldn't be enough/any fuel from an inactive SU pump.
Will

Thats a great question... old american cars (model As) had the tank above the engine and were gravity fed so that would work for either battery or starter problems... ???
gblawson - TD#27667

dave, dognut is actually the name of a bolt. It's the bolt that secures the crankshaft pulley to the crankshaft. If you have a copy of the Workshop Manual (and, how could you not) look at Item #30 in the drawing on Page A.22. Its simple name is Bolt-crankshaft. It has two notches in the outside end. One side of each notch is tapered so that the pin of the crank can only drive the dognut in a clockwise direction. Rotating the handcrank CCW would cause it to be cammed out of the notch. Conversely, the CW rotation of the engine, upon firing, will (should) cam the pin out of the dognut.

Gordon, an XPAG doesn't need a functioning fuel pump in order to start, just fuel in the float chamber (and jet). The issue is spark. I suspect that the rotation of the generator may be sufficient to generate enough power to fire a plug. Similar to Dave DB's case, I went for a month with a broken battery and used the crank every day.
But, YMMV.
Bud Krueger

The kickback problem when cranking occurred on older cars with a manual spark advance lever on the colomn and occurred when the operator forgot to retard the spark and left it advanced. In the TDs if the mechanical advance mechanisms in the distributors are working and the springs return the plate to the normal position, the timing is returned to normal, and the problem of starting under advance timing is minimized.
If the distributor weights are gummed up and don't return to the initial timing position, you could possibly experience kickback.

The term "dog-nut" probably comes from a common mechanical name for a spur or lever which was used to stop a gear, such as in a winch, from counter rotating. The lever in a cable type hoist or "come-a-along" is an example.
The spurs on the side of the crankshaft nut could have been called "dogs", thus a dog-nut.

Dallas
Dallas Congleton

Oooooo..."manual spark advance" ...there's one my wife can tell you about! Being rather small and wanting to take a try at starting my old 58 Harley Panhead when we were young! Launched a 5'2" 98lb woman over the handlebars.
On the fuel pump ...I run a cut-off switch on my TF and more than once have taken off on just the fuel in float bowls. It does just what I want it to do as a "thieft devise".....you can get about 2/3 blocks away before engine sputters to a stop.
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Regarding battery power...

If the battery is too low to crank the engine, it will still have enough juice left to fire the spark plugs and run the fuel pump. However if the battery is completely flat or missing, the car will not start. You could probably "bump start" it on a downhill by getting the engine RPMs high enough to run the generator at a fast speed, and therefore powering the car on its own.

For my crank start story which hits on this very topic, see here: http://www.mgnuts.com/mg/tales/mgyb/crankitup/
Steve Simmons

Another crank story from here.
We were traveling in a caravan of T cars up to Toronto to meet the New England MG T Register cars on the finish of their Ocean to Ocean trip. We stopped for lunch in Niagara On The Lake. and when we came out after lunch, my car (TD) wouldn't turn over.
Rather than waste a lot of time trying to determine what the problem was I got out the hand crank and presto the car was running and we were on our way.
Made it all the way to Cambridge with no trouble. When I looked for the problem later it was just a loose connection on the starter. But once again the hand crank came to the rescue. Naturally one of our "caravanners" who had never seen a hand crank used just had to have a photo of my cranking. Naturally he took my largest but not most attractive side.

George Herschell
George R Herschell

Speaking of the hand crank, I have the crank and the clips to secure it to the back of the seat (TD Mark II). Can anyone give me the correct position of the clips? How many inches down from the top edge of the seat back? Does the crank handle end go on the drivers or passenger side?

I have hand cranked the TD, but dislike doing so. Much easier to give it a push. I have also successfully cranked our Model T Ford and Model A Ford. As stated previously, to avoid injury, be sure to retard the spark before cranking, and keep your thumb and fingers on the same side of the crank handle.
john Masters

Have used the hand crank on many an occasion in the 33 years I have owned my TD. Low batteries, failed starters, etc. Always crank with all fingers and thumb on the top and pull the crank up.

Have never had a backfire. Always thought that with the way the dog-nut is shaped, that even if it did backfire, the engaging pin would simply slide out. It is pretty much a one-way system.
BEC Cunha

John Masters - You have e-mail. Cheers - Dave

Regarding starting a T series when the starter won't turn. While the starting handle works well for this purpose, and as you have read, we used that method for a week while I overhauled the starter, there is an easier method if one is out on the road. Just push the bloody car. It doesn't take any more effort than the starting handle does (as long as the cae is not trapped in a parking space between two other cars). I did this a couple of months ago. We had taken the TD to a dance at the local Elks. When we came out the car wouldn't start due to a low battery. I stuck my left leg out of the door and peddled the car out of the parking spot and pointed it going in the downhill direction, letting it roll about 10 ft and poping the clutch. If we aren't on a slope of any kind, I just get out and push while the wife pops the clutch - two or three steps is all it takes. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Many old IH tractors such as the F-30 or the earlier "regular" use a crank with a socket and notches. This goes over a set of pins. This inturn is a spring loaded shaft which must be pushed into engagement with the dog nut. Spark was provided by a magneto which had a retard lever. When properly set, the spark actually came AFTER TDC. These mags had a an apparatus which cause the rotor to move quickly or snap at the firing position. Thus there was very little chance of kick back. I cranked an old 1920s regular many times back 60's putting up hay with it's oneway farmhand. I've also started several old 2 cylinder JD's using the flywheel on the side during this same period of time.

Regards,
Blake
Bullwinkle

Just because something has not happened before, that doesn't mean it won't happen tomorrow! While the crank will pop out of the dog bolt once the engine starts, it WILL NOT pop out if the engine kicks back. If the engine turns backwards, the dog bolt teeth will push the crank handle backwards as well, and at potentially dangerous speeds.

I have never suffered a serious kickback, but I have had a couple minor ones that kept me on my toes!
Steve Simmons

Dave,
Can you post your info to John here? I also need to mount the crank clips on my Mk II. Others may also have the same question....

Cheers!
Rob Edwards

Dont forget to shim the dog nut to the correct position. This should set the starting handle to the 6:40 to 6:45 position at TDC, if it is before 6:30 you stand a good chance of breaking your wrist and not your thumb if you have backfire.
Been there, done that!!!!!!
RAY LEE

the brain has turned to mush again,old age or delayed Christmas cheer.
Ignore the figure 6 and just use clock face
RAY LEE

Ray

A very interesting point. I never gave a thought that shimming the bolt would affect the position of the crank handle. You continue my faith in that if you keep reading the posts here, You will always learn something new.
BEC Cunha

Thanks for the reminder, Ray. You folks might want to look at the Engine Components drawing on page A.22 of the Workshop Manual. Take notice of Part(s) #31, Shims, nut. The plural form is the clue to what Ray brought up. You need to install a quantity of shims to bring the beginning of a compression stroke to be occuring just as the handcrank has passed through its lowest point.
Bud Krueger

There *is* one big advantage to using the crank handle vs push starting...

... we managed to blow the diff in a TC trying to pushstart the bugger!

(later also diagnosed as dead coil after flat-bedded home)
Will

I'm having trouble inserting the crankhandle into the dog nut. It wants to dive in from high to low. Either the radiator cross mounting rail is too high or the engine is too low. The RCM sits below the chassis as it should (you were right Rob). As the front engine mount was new 43 years ago & the car has just sat patiently all this time, perhaps the mount rubber has been squashed somewhat, effectively lowering the engine. I can either replace the mount (but rubber looks OK), pack it up or put some washers between the chassis & the RCM to lower it. How best to proceed?

Reactivated this thread because of the advice on using the handle. This will be one of the demonstrations at the T Type Tech Day to be run by the Sydney MG Restorers Association in November of this year. (This event is free & open to anyone attending with a T Type. If you're interested let me know). Fig A.28 on A.24 of the WSM shows a sketch which may or may not show the correct relationship of the dog nut to TDC. There are no shims behind my dog nut so I will neeed to fit one/some. What would be really useful is if someone can post a pic or two showing the hand in the correct starting position on the handle, inserted into a correctly shimmed & oriented dog nut. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

peter, i had to shim my front mount, but only after i determined the rear mount wasn't too high. best of luck. regards, tom
tm peterson

And to add to Steve Simmons steps, I find that leaving the ignition off and spinning the engine over for a few revolutions (with the choke on, if cold) will pull some fuel/air mixture into the intake and cylinders so when you turn on the ignition for the start it usually only takes one quick upward jerk to get 'er running.

John Quilter
Eugene, Oregon USA
John Quilter (TD8986)

This thread was discussed between 28/12/2006 and 27/05/2014

MG TD TF 1500 index

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