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MG TD TF 1500 - Installing the engine

OK, I thought I was all set. Picked up the engine on the HF hoist w/leveler, rolled it over the car, and spent half an hour trying to figure how to get it in. Finally rolled it back out and its sitting on the ground now.
I had no trouble getting it out, but I had taken off the oil pump at that time.
Now, trying to reinstall with the oil pump in place, it looks like it just won't go in without either removing/disassembling the steering assy or removing the left side engine stabilizer bracket.
Which would be easiest to remove? (Looks like the stabilizer bracket to me, 3 large bolts). Or do I need to remove both?
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey The steering shaft must be pulled up out off the way and the brace should come out as well. 6 bolts and all the obstructions are gone. You spent more time fiddling than the ten minutes it would take with hand wrenches to get them out of the way. I would also leave the front saddle and mount off until the engine is mated to the trans. One less thing to fight

Good luck

Bill Chasser Jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Thanks Bill, I'll do them both. As you say, less things to fight. argggg...
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffry,

By way of not being very helpful. It can be done without removing the steering column. Back in 1961 I did an engine overhaul at a Air Force hobby shop. Engine out and back in single handed. Of course back then I did not worry about dings and scratches. Wish I could remember the details but now too old for such trivia. Good luck.

Jim Haskins 1953 TD (Then and now)
J. M. Haskins

I'm posting this on two threads to ease any replies:

I have removed the 3 rubber shoulder bolts on the steering arm. The entire shaft then slid easily up into the cockpit. So this tells me, I'm probably missing the firewall clamp and the draught excluder and possibly the underdash clamp. I'll check that later.
Still, the shaft is up out of the way.
The problem is, the oil pump still seems to be unable to get past the lower steering arm and that "spider".
Advice?
It's hot out, I'm covered with sweat and cranky :)
Geoffrey M Baker

A cold brewski has been known to help. Jud
J. K. Chapin


Geoffrey, Are you trying to put the engine and trans in as an assembly? If so, its a little tighter and heavier that way. When the engine is installed and setting in its mounts, the oil pump is about 2 inches to the rear of the steering shaft spider coupling. Your problem is probably that your trying to go in with the engine level, It won't go in like that. The rear of the engine needs to tilt down enough to enter the fire wall cut out and allow the oil pump to go past the steering coupling before leveling and dropping it down into position. That's why I don't use a leveling sling-- a couple of straps around the approximate balance point of the engine and some extra mechanical assistance is what works best for me. However, I just put an engine in my car last week by myself using a couple of tie down straps. Having a friend help you stabilize and maneuver the engine as you operate the lift is easiest. I know there has been a lot of discussion about leveling devices and where to connect them to the engine, but some times a simpler solution is to revert back to devices readily available to the back yard mechanic.
be careful, and get some help from a friend if possible.
Richard Cameron

OK I got it past the steering coupling.
I had to really wiggle to get it past, but it worked.

Thanks for all the advice!!

OK, next.

It's more or less level and in place. It still has about 1 inch to go backwards to mate. I put a torque wrench on the crankshaft nut so I could move the crank back and forth, but no amount of pushing while turning is letting the engine slide any further back.

Suggestions? Should I just try to use long screws to connect the bellhousing and mate it that way? Or should it be able to go in further on its own?

Currently, the clutch plate assy has engaged the gear shaft at the back, and I have a socket and bar on the front going through the chassis starter hole connecting to the crankshaft nut. So it should be in the correct plane, and the hoist is still holding it in place.

Next steps? I still need to get it back about 3/4 - 1 inch...

Getting hotter and sweatier by the minute :)
Geoffrey M Baker

Here's a picture of the lift I use. I think I bought it at Harbor freight though.


Richard Cameron

Richard, looks like the same as mine maybe a bit heftier (mine is a 1-ton).
It certainly makes the job possible, if not easy.

However, I'm still stuck trying to figure out why the engine and bellhousing are still 3/4 inch apart, I am very reticent to try to assemble by bolts, I would think the engine should slide back more.

Advice needed!
Geoffrey M Baker

Sounds like you are installing the engine with the transmission already in the car, correct?

If so, it sounds like you're having trouble getting the transmission input shaft to insert through the clutch disk and into the pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft.

So, here goes:

Assuming you removed the clutch cover and clutch disk, did you use a clutch alignment tool to reinstall it (Moss #387-250)? You can find universal alignment tools, as well, and I've seen folks use a bit of dowel with tape wrapped around it. In any case, you'll not get the input shaft to go in unless it is lined up.

Now, make sure you've got the transmission and the engine block lined up and level. The gap should be pretty much equal around the bellhousing. The input shaft won't go in easily if you've got it at an angle to the engine.

Try rocking the engine and/or the transmission as you insert the shaft. You can also spin the input shaft by putting the transmission in gear and turning the driveshaft flange. It doesn't have to turn much. You are just trying to align the splines on the input shaft with the notches in the clutch disk as well as slide into the pilot bearing.

You'll find that it won't fit, won't fit, struggle, rock, push and then, all of a sudden, it will go in and the engine will seat against the transmission.

No, DO NOT force it by putting in the bolts and tightening it down. You'll just break something.
David Littlefield

Yes I used the moss alignment tool.
I'll keep trying.
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey...

I used two long bolts with the heads cut off, screwed into the back of the engine where the transmission bolts up, to help me guide them together. I had the same problem as you with it being hard to get it together - I managed to get it close enough that I could start pulling it together with the rest of the bolts, tightening each a little at a time until it was tight. I made sure that I could rotate the engine/transmission as I tightened it up.

Gene
Gene Gillam

Above suggestions good. Suggest pulling tranny and mating out of the car. Any time you save by not pulling the tranny/engine as a unit will be lost upon reassembly IMHO. Did it that way once years ago, never again. George
George Butz

Geoffrey,

Using bolts to mate the engine to the bell housing is usually not a good idea.
There are 2 possibilities. Either the clutch disc is not properly aligned or the spigot bushing has been deformed from improper installation. I would suggest to snug the bell housing to the engine block using the bolts you referred to and put a pipe, etc., over the clutch release lever to disengage the clutch and see if the transmission will jump all the way home. If this does not work, the problem is probably a deformed pilot bushing, which means you need to pull the engine out. A proper pilot bushing installation tool will have a boss that inserts into the ID of the pilot bushing to stop deformation. The pilot bushing is very soft and hammering it home can close the ID. You can restore the ID with the proper size drill, etc.

You can call me at any time, and I will help you.

Gregory S
Columbia Restoration
(708) 715-5517
GMS Serduke

Success!
I took the engine out again and then removed and replaced the clutch to the flywheel. I noticed that while I had used the clutch alignment tool, it was quite hard to get it in and out again, so it must have been just on the "edge" of alignment.
I reinstalled the clutch checking the clutch alignment tool to make sure it could slide in and out easily as I tightened every bolt, back to 19 lbs/foot torque.
Then I reinstalled the engine.

I also removed the front rubber motor mount as it might have been making it harder to get it all aligned properly. (Probably not, but still good insurance).

This time, after a bit of wiggling, it slid in and I was able to easily get it back until the bellhousing and engine fit together perfectly. Took half an hour of wiggling and adjusting of the engine leveler, up and down, and then it just slid together.

Reinstalled the rubber mount, the front engine mounting plate, and installed three bolts on the back housing. Everything is temporarily in and waiting for tightening down.

It all looks good.
Thanks for all the suggestions and help.
Time for a nice long break and some water!
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey. If you have an engine crank handle stick it through the bumper and radiator mount and see if it engages the crank properly. I have yet to shim my engine up a bit as the handle binds on the radiator support. Just easy to to while you can get your hands on everything. I am going to make the shim to set between the fame and mount. Slotting the bolt holes so I can simply slide it into place without pulling the bolts out.
W. A. Chasser Jr

Great idea Bill I'll check that before proceeding further... I definitely want to be able to use the crank handle to adjust valves etch so I'll make sure that lines up properly.
I'm done for the day today, I'm beat!
Geoffrey M Baker

The level of difficulty to do this task is not high providing you do the following:

1. Align the clutch corr2015-09-23
G Evans

Geoffrey The steering shaft must be pulled up out off the way and the brace should come out as well. 6 bolts and all the obstructions are gone. You spent more time fiddling than the ten minutes it would take with hand wrenches to get them out of the way. I would also leave the front saddle and mount off until the engine is mated to the trans. One less thing to fight

Good luck

Bill Chasser Jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Thanks Bill, I'll do them both. As you say, less things to fight. argggg...
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffry,

By way of not being very helpful. It can be done without removing the steering column. Back in 1961 I did an engine overhaul at a Air Force hobby shop. Engine out and back in single handed. Of course back then I did not worry about dings and scratches. Wish I could remember the details but now too old for such trivia. Good luck.

Jim Haskins 1953 TD (Then and now)
J. M. Haskins

I'm posting this on two threads to ease any replies:

I have removed the 3 rubber shoulder bolts on the steering arm. The entire shaft then slid easily up into the cockpit. So this tells me, I'm probably missing the firewall clamp and the draught excluder and possibly the underdash clamp. I'll check that later.
Still, the shaft is up out of the way.
The problem is, the oil pump still seems to be unable to get past the lower steering arm and that "spider".
Advice?
It's hot out, I'm covered with sweat and cranky :)
Geoffrey M Baker

A cold brewski has been known to help. Jud
J. K. Chapin


Geoffrey, Are you trying to put the engine and trans in as an assembly? If so, its a little tighter and heavier that way. When the engine is installed and setting in its mounts, the oil pump is about 2 inches to the rear of the steering shaft spider coupling. Your problem is probably that your trying to go in with the engine level, It won't go in like that. The rear of the engine needs to tilt down enough to enter the fire wall cut out and allow the oil pump to go past the steering coupling before leveling and dropping it down into position. That's why I don't use a leveling sling-- a couple of straps around the approximate balance point of the engine and some extra mechanical assistance is what works best for me. However, I just put an engine in my car last week by myself using a couple of tie down straps. Having a friend help you stabilize and maneuver the engine as you operate the lift is easiest. I know there has been a lot of discussion about leveling devices and where to connect them to the engine, but some times a simpler solution is to revert back to devices readily available to the back yard mechanic.
be careful, and get some help from a friend if possible.
Richard Cameron

OK I got it past the steering coupling.
I had to really wiggle to get it past, but it worked.

Thanks for all the advice!!

OK, next.

It's more or less level and in place. It still has about 1 inch to go backwards to mate. I put a torque wrench on the crankshaft nut so I could move the crank back and forth, but no amount of pushing while turning is letting the engine slide any further back.

Suggestions? Should I just try to use long screws to connect the bellhousing and mate it that way? Or should it be able to go in further on its own?

Currently, the clutch plate assy has engaged the gear shaft at the back, and I have a socket and bar on the front going through the chassis starter hole connecting to the crankshaft nut. So it should be in the correct plane, and the hoist is still holding it in place.

Next steps? I still need to get it back about 3/4 - 1 inch...

Getting hotter and sweatier by the minute :)
Geoffrey M Baker

Here's a picture of the lift I use. I think I bought it at Harbor freight though.


Richard Cameron

Richard, looks like the same as mine maybe a bit heftier (mine is a 1-ton).
It certainly makes the job possible, if not easy.

However, I'm still stuck trying to figure out why the engine and bellhousing are still 3/4 inch apart, I am very reticent to try to assemble by bolts, I would think the engine should slide back more.

Advice needed!
Geoffrey M Baker

Sounds like you are installing the engine with the transmission already in the car, correct?

If so, it sounds like you're having trouble getting the transmission input shaft to insert through the clutch disk and into the pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft.

So, here goes:

Assuming you removed the clutch cover and clutch disk, did you use a clutch alignment tool to reinstall it (Moss #387-250)? You can find universal alignment tools, as well, and I've seen folks use a bit of dowel with tape wrapped around it. In any case, you'll not get the input shaft to go in unless it is lined up.

Now, make sure you've got the transmission and the engine block lined up and level. The gap should be pretty much equal around the bellhousing. The input shaft won't go in easily if you've got it at an angle to the engine.

Try rocking the engine and/or the transmission as you insert the shaft. You can also spin the input shaft by putting the transmission in gear and turning the driveshaft flange. It doesn't have to turn much. You are just trying to align the splines on the input shaft with the notches in the clutch disk as well as slide into the pilot bearing.

You'll find that it won't fit, won't fit, struggle, rock, push and then, all of a sudden, it will go in and the engine will seat against the transmission.

No, DO NOT force it by putting in the bolts and tightening it down. You'll just break something.
David Littlefield

Yes I used the moss alignment tool.
I'll keep trying.
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey...

I used two long bolts with the heads cut off, screwed into the back of the engine where the transmission bolts up, to help me guide them together. I had the same problem as you with it being hard to get it together - I managed to get it close enough that I could start pulling it together with the rest of the bolts, tightening each a little at a time until it was tight. I made sure that I could rotate the engine/transmission as I tightened it up.

Gene
Gene Gillam

Above suggestions good. Suggest pulling tranny and mating out of the car. Any time you save by not pulling the tranny/engine as a unit will be lost upon reassembly IMHO. Did it that way once years ago, never again. George
George Butz

Geoffrey,

Using bolts to mate the engine to the bell housing is usually not a good idea.
There are 2 possibilities. Either the clutch disc is not properly aligned or the spigot bushing has been deformed from improper installation. I would suggest to snug the bell housing to the engine block using the bolts you referred to and put a pipe, etc., over the clutch release lever to disengage the clutch and see if the transmission will jump all the way home. If this does not work, the problem is probably a deformed pilot bushing, which means you need to pull the engine out. A proper pilot bushing installation tool will have a boss that inserts into the ID of the pilot bushing to stop deformation. The pilot bushing is very soft and hammering it home can close the ID. You can restore the ID with the proper size drill, etc.

You can call me at any time, and I will help you.

Gregory S
Columbia Restoration
(708) 715-5517
GMS Serduke

Success!
I took the engine out again and then removed and replaced the clutch to the flywheel. I noticed that while I had used the clutch alignment tool, it was quite hard to get it in and out again, so it must have been just on the "edge" of alignment.
I reinstalled the clutch checking the clutch alignment tool to make sure it could slide in and out easily as I tightened every bolt, back to 19 lbs/foot torque.
Then I reinstalled the engine.

I also removed the front rubber motor mount as it might have been making it harder to get it all aligned properly. (Probably not, but still good insurance).

This time, after a bit of wiggling, it slid in and I was able to easily get it back until the bellhousing and engine fit together perfectly. Took half an hour of wiggling and adjusting of the engine leveler, up and down, and then it just slid together.

Reinstalled the rubber mount, the front engine mounting plate, and installed three bolts on the back housing. Everything is temporarily in and waiting for tightening down.

It all looks good.
Thanks for all the suggestions and help.
Time for a nice long break and some water!
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey. If you have an engine crank handle stick it through the bumper and radiator mount and see if it engages the crank properly. I have yet to shim my engine up a bit as the handle binds on the radiator support. Just easy to to while you can get your hands on everything. I am going to make the shim to set between the fame and mount. Slotting the bolt holes so I can simply slide it into place without pulling the bolts out.
W. A. Chasser Jr

Great idea Bill I'll check that before proceeding further... I definitely want to be able to use the crank handle to adjust valves etch so I'll make sure that lines up properly.
I'm done for the day today, I'm beat!
Geoffrey M Baker

The level of difficulty to do this task is not high providing you do the following:

1. Align the clutch correctly and inspect the pilot bush for damage.

2. Lightly grease the transmission spigot including the splines.

3. Jack the front of the transmission to its maximum elevation that the firewall will facilitate.

4. Sling the engine so it is inclined downwards on an engine crane at the same angle that the transmission is placed. The crane wheels must clear the vehicle wheels and be on a level surface that will facilitate movement under the vehicle.

5. Slide the engine on the crane towards the transmission lowering it to facilitate the spigot entering the clutch fingers and the pilot bush. Lateral rocking of the engine will assist with the insertion.

I had my TF engine in and out on 3 occasions on 3 consecutive days using this process chasing issues with rear end oil leaks so I know this method works. No ancillary components had to be removed and I had no assistance.I am no spring chicken and built like a jockey.
G Evans

G Evans,

I assume your side panels, fenders, and radiator had been removed on your TF when you did this?

Bob
Bob

Bob,
it can be done just by removing the rad and tie bar (but very slowly and carefully).And as you see also in confined places.
Removing the tie bracket and pulling back the steering column helps.
I don't have anywhere to store wings and panels so I have no choice. I can only just open my door once the car is in the garage.
Ray TF 2884


Ray Lee

Bob

I should have been a little more explicit, side panels, radiator and tie bar were off the car, Fenders still in place, I have now split my side panels I wonder whether this will be sufficient to do an engine exchange.

Graeme
G Evans

Another pic shows better how little room I have to work. But the lump still comes out.
Ray


Ray Lee

Today I took the engine back out again and reinstalled it, this time with a dab of grease on the the spigot bushing and the gearshaft. Went in no problems (seems like I definitely have to take both the steering rod and the left side stabilizer mount out, I just can't do it without that much wiggle room. I remembered to check the steering wheel when reassembling the steering rod, so it's properly lined up.
Bellhousing solidly mated to engine, time to start putting stuff back together.
Finally moving in the right direction!
Geoffrey M Baker

W. A. Chasser Jr

Bob,
it can be done just by removing the rad and tie bar (but very slowly and carefully).And as you see also in confined places.
Removing the tie bracket and pulling back the steering column helps.
I don't have anywhere to store wings and panels so I have no choice. I can only just open my door once the car is in the garage.
Ray TF 2884


Ray Lee

Bob

I should have been a little more explicit, side panels, radiator and tie bar were off the car, Fenders still in place, I have now split my side panels I wonder whether this will be sufficient to do an engine exchange.

Graeme
G Evans

Another pic shows better how little room I have to work. But the lump still comes out.
Ray


Ray Lee

Today I took the engine back out again and reinstalled it, this time with a dab of grease on the the spigot bushing and the gearshaft. Went in no problems (seems like I definitely have to take both the steering rod and the left side stabilizer mount out, I just can't do it without that much wiggle room. I remembered to check the steering wheel when reassembling the steering rod, so it's properly lined up.
Bellhousing solidly mated to engine, time to start putting stuff back together.
Finally moving in the right direction!
Geoffrey M Baker

Weird. Please delete one, webmaster :)
Today, I installed the oil filter and lines. Hope to prime it and fill it and turn the engine over in the next couple of days. I'll put the battery on to charge and install the starter motor tomorrow.
Geoffrey M Baker

This thread was discussed between 23/09/2015 and 01/10/2015

MG TD TF 1500 index

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