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MG TD TF 1500 - Is my shock arm bent?

Oh boy! I just took down the TD for my first drive of the spring and before I took it off jack stands I thought I'ld better give it a final once over. To my dismay I just noticed what appears to be a 45 degree bend in my right rear "shock arm" (I don't know it's real name yet.) It has probably been this way since PO and I never noticed it (don't ask why!). The left side is perfectly straight and, perhaps, it is a shorter arm. I'm not sure. You can even see a shiny spot where the hand brake cable has been rubbing on the arm in another picture.

So gentlemen, am I dreaming or not? Maybe this is the reason my car shimmy's between 50 and 60 mpg? I've tried all the usual "fixes" from the archives.

Driving season awaits and I'm in a quandry! How did it get this way and what should I do? Is it safe to drive?

Thanks in advance once again,
Ed



efh Ed

No question the arm is bent but the bigger question would be what other damage occurred when the damage to the arm happened. It would take considerable force to bend the arm.
I can't see the bent arm causing a shimmy, the shock travel will be shortened in the downward direction.
but I would look for further damage. I note that the U bolt as well as the spring pads look new so someone was working back there.
Good luck
Morris
M E WADDS

Hi Ed, also looks as if oil has been leaking from the shockie. This may indicate that it needs reconditioning. It is probably not working too well right now.

Cheers,

Paul.
Paul van Gool

Perhaps, with the rust on the spring below it showing as it does, might it be a good idea to let it go on leaking oil?
G.E. Love

My best quess would be that the shock has been "frozen" for quite some time and that is what bent your "arm".
Is there any movement at the shock?
David 55 TF 1500 #7427
David Sheward

Ed,

I have girling shocks, and the lenght c to c of the shock link is 7 inches. You have Armstrong and they may not be the same. I noticed that the check strap is deformed and may indicate that some repair has been done, and the wrong shock link has been installed. You could measure the other side to confirm the correct dimension.

George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

It could have been caused by a tow strap-HOOK or something tied to it on a trailer.
Sandy
Sandy Sanders

Ed - I am with Paul, there is indication that the shock is leaking. As for the link, it is definitely bent, but it looks like it could have been too long and purposely bent to make it fit. I would send the whole shock, including the link to Peter Caldwell at World Wide Auto Parts http://www.nosimport.com/ and let him work his magic on it (you might want to send both rear shocks at the same time). As for the shimmy, that could well be a bent wheel. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

ed, is the shimmy in the rear of the car or the front end? regards, tom
tom peterson

The bent thing is called the link. The shock arm itself looks like it is horizontal as it should be when weight is on the tire/spring. It could be the angle of the photo, but the distance between the end of the shock arm proper and the spring mount looks about right. Possibly the link used was too long, and bent to shorten? Easy to tell- just measure distance, compare to your other side (and the 7" measurement from above), then you can unbolt the link and see if the shock works or not. George
George Butz

I also note it appears the rear spring has been worked on. Note the red color on the top and bottom of the spring plate.

Bend in the link also appears to match the bend in the check strap. Seems odd that someone would go to the trouble of taking the springs apart and either not get the correct link or leave a damaged one in place.

But then, we all know PO's do very strange things.

I would check the wheel for roundness on at least that side. I would also check bearings.

Could be this got hit and drove the axle back.
Bruce-C

If I was gonna take a guess Ed, I'd say somebody replaced the entire shock and link with an MGB unit. The link is much longer on the B but the shock body is the same.

LaVerne
LED DOWNEY

Ed,

While you are working in this area, be sure the brake line does not run on top of the axle and through the rebound strap. This incorrect path puts the brake line at risk of getting pinched during vertical travel of the axle.

Correct routing has the brake line loop to the rear of the car and around the rebound strap (for both the left and right rebound straps).

Larry
Larry Shoer

Thanks one and all. This prompted me to pull out some old paperwork from PO that came with the car. I found the following quote from a British shop in Denver that worked on the car in 2007:

"...Test drive & find loose rear axle...re-attach rear axle with new polyurethane spring-to-axle mounting pads. Still needs complete rear suspension overhaul, but this repair make car safe for now!"

So, that explains the "red" pads in the picture. But who knows where that link came from. Maybe LaVerne is right - from a B? Why they didn't order a new link (they are Moss distributors!) is anyone's guess! And why not clean the rust off those springs? What does a "complete rear suspension overhaul" encompass? And why didn't I notice all this before purchase - or did I not want to?

As for the leaking, yes, there are droplets showing. The left side (not pictured) is the worse. I topped it off a year ago and the right side was full, even though minor leaking. The shocks appear to "work" when I push up/down on rear fendors. Is that a valid test? Shimmy is more in steering so the link probably not a factor I guess. Car tracks straight & true at speed & braking.

So the $64k question? Is this car "safe for now" or not? And that rust on springs - is it just cosmetic or not? All opinions are appreciated here!!!

Thanks,
Ed
efh Ed

Ed,
With my luck with lawsuits as of late no way would I tell you it is "safe for now"!
LOL (pardon the "L" ...but it's either that or scream...I scream every-time I get the bills from the "gray men in the thin suits")
What I will say is I drove Izzy around for 2 years with springs and shocks that I believe were in much worse shape than what I see here. (two of my springs were broken).
IMHO: I would order new springs & bushings ect and drive carefully till the order gets in. The actual change over is pretty easy and should only take a day even with some small mods you will no doubt have to make to get repro parts to fit correctly.
On the spings...go with the full set...it's not worth it trying to re bend and fit pads to get back to original specs.
(I recall having to "shave" a bit off the new bushings to fit)
Cheers...Best of Luck...and please don't sue me!
David 55 TF1500 #7427
PS: update on 1 lawsuit...won judgement in Civil court on counter-suit...won on appeal they made to 5th District court. Have still been unable to collect on my court ordered "settlement" of $6190.00 and have paid "suit" over $18,000.00 so far! Thank God I have a "LBC" that still keeps a smile on my face! ;-)
David Sheward

Dave brings up a good point. I hearby release anybody and everybody who offers advice on this topic from any sort of lawsuit!
efh Ed

Lawsuits, Dave? Hopefully nothing generated from comments and contributions you may have made on this BBS
G.E. Love

Good grief G.E. don't give anybody else ideas for more litigation! I can't afford any more "thin suits"!
It is all really stupid stuff.
Wife broke her neck in 2001 at work still fighting with her employer & BWC over bills.
The one described in post above was from design work I did and their employees installed the equipment incorrectly.
Another from local TV production company that went out of business owing me about 6 months pay.
And my little head on crash from June 07 that I have not seen even the tow bills or medical expenses paid yet. (crushed my right knee & left wrist)
The last one is what took me out of the "LBC enjoyment" for a while and wiped out my truck, dolly, and son's 83 Supra we were towing to paint shop...oh and 2 other cars. She was moving along at a fairly high rate of fuel consumption!
Not much left of the old Dakota! see attached.
David


David Sheward

Ed, I'd say your safe on the rear end until you get around to a proper replacement. I'd be more concerned about the front end shimmy you have described. I'd definatley get that sorted out first myself.

LaVerne
LED DOWNEY

I got one for ya Dave. Fellow on another site I visit was sued for discrimination and lost because he listed a rental house as being ideal for a retired couple. Total BS.
LED DOWNEY

Okay, I think I'm getting it. I plan on just ordering a new "link" from Moss for now. If shocks apear frozen during install I will send them out to be rebuilt per above. Above indicates I have Armstrong shocks. Just a few install questions:

1. I assume(hope) the car is put on jacks & tire removed to replace the link, yes? (Was concerned about load or no load on springs effecting this task?)

2. Looks like just 2 bolts holding the link to the car, is that correct? Any tips or tricks here? Easy?

3. Moss catalog looks like the 2 bolts come with the new link because they are not itemized. Anybody know for sure?
efh Ed

I don't think the shock is frozen Ed. If it was frozen up while you were driving and you hit a good bump it would have most likely exploded the casing of the shock. The bolts are built into the links. I don't recall if you will get new nuts with them. Spray the threads of your old unit with some PB Blaster or your favorite penetraiting oil a day before. Try to keep the oil from getting in to the rubber bushing. The nuts can sieze up after a long period and when the rubber in the link goes to pot the the bolt just wants to spin in the housing. Particularly on the lower end.

LaVerne
LED DOWNEY

Just a word of warning on topping off shocks. In a lecture I attended by Peter Caldwell of World Wide Auto Parts, he made it clear that filling lever shocks up to the top will result in more leakage. The shocks need some expansion room and if you fill them to the brim, it just puts more pressure on the seals and they will eventually start leaking.
Bruce-C

Thanks Bruce, I did NOT know this! Mine are topped off and yes, they do leak. This will be fixed! I emailed Peter yesterday with a pic of my link and he gave me part numbers that are stamped into the metal to confirm if mine is from a B or a TD. Very helpful chap!
efh Ed

Ed,

From your photo it looks as if the damper is from either an MGA A or a MG B, the TD damper has the valve chamber positioned vertically between the two cylinders, yours is horizontal. That said, I think that they are interchangable,(not the link.) The stiffness may be different.

John
J Scragg

Okay guys, after talking with Peter Caldwel, he recommended I remove the shock and link as a unit and send it to him for rebuild. Fine, except that nut that holds the link to the frame near the springs wil NOT come off! I've tried 3 in 1 penatrating oil overnight, hammers, cussing, bleeding knuckles, etc. The archives are full of the same problem from others but no resolution. I don't have access to cutting torches, air wrenches, etc. Nearest PB Blaster source is 30 miles away from me. Is it worth the trip? Any wild ideas from you guys would be awsome!

Another 5 minute job that's taken 2 days so for - sound familiar?

Thanks,
Ed
efh Ed

Ed,

When I had a problem removing a shock arm, Dave DuBois suggested I use a needle nose vise grip to get in there and hold the bolt on the shock arm while I turned the nut. I hope this helps, it won't if the nut just won't turn, my problem was it would but not loosen.

You could get in there with a dremmel and split the nut.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Ed,
Have you tried Coke? Amazzing what it will do to old rusted parts! Only problem is once you see what it does to metal you may never want to drink it again.
If that does not work, (due to lack of torch & such....same here), dremmel tool to split like Dave say's is about the best.
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Ed, I'm not sure you can get the vise grips in there. If you have a grinder and are willing to sacrifice the tool then grind down the sides of the jaws until you can fit it in there. Last resort is split the nut (on the car that is). By the way your upholstrey looks beautiful.

LaVerne
LED DOWNEY

When I faced this problem a few weeks ago I took off the shock, link and bottom plate under the spring in one piece. Support the spring then remove the four "U" bolt nuts and drop the plate and complete assembly off and place in a large vice to take apart. Be prepared to snap off a bolt or two on the "U" bolts but they are readily replaced.
Once off the TD dismantling was infinitely easier.
Good luck
Morris
M E WADDS

LED

Not sure you can get it in there, but you can purchase a Nut splitter (normally under 20 bucks). This is one of those tools you use seldom, but when you need it, it is great to have. Slips over the nut and has a wedge that you compress into the nut.

Another suggestion would be to cut the head side off.
Bruce-C

LED

Not sure you can get it in there, but you can purchase a Nut splitter. This is one of those tools you use seldom, but when you need it, it is great to have. Slips over the nut and has a wedge that you compress into the nut.

Another suggestion would be to cut the head side off.

Here is a picture of one that Northern tool sells.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_34573_34573
Bruce-C

Bruce, thanks for the info on the nut splitter. I'm looking into that but I'm not sure it can fit into that tight space and if it can split a hardened steel nut?? Anybody happen to know?

Morris, re: "support the spring"? I know this sounds simple but for some reason it eludes me. In my picture (see 1st post above) you can see my jack stand which is holding up the car via the spring. So is my spring "under tension" or not at this point. In other words, am I ok to remove the U-bolts at this point or not?

Thanks all - I read each response carefully!!
Ed
efh Ed

Morris, I just went out and easily test loosened the 4 nuts you mentioned above easily. Does the nut in the center of the plate have to be removed to get the plate off as well? I hope not, mine is frozen solid! Jeezzzz!!!
Thanks again,
Ed
efh Ed

Hi Ed, the nut in the centre holds the spring leaves together. It stays.

Cheers,

Paul.
Paul van Gool

SUCCESS! Morris was the winner! I removed the U bolt nuts, pulled the whole thing off and it's on it's way to Peter Caldwell. He id's mine (from tiny id numbers well hidden) as from an MGB. Since they both leak I'm doing both. Had to cut one U bolt whose threads were badly stripped. Will replace that also.

What's next? Thanks too ALL you guys for your input, again!
efh Ed

Ed,
It is advisable and a recommended procedure to replace all of the spring "U" bolts when they have been used and removed.. also might as well replace the double nuts on each end...
Steve Wincze

Thanks Steve. I think mine are fairly recent from PO-the one who put on the MGB shocks with bent link! I had to cut one due to thrashed threads anyway. Was gonna order just one from Moss. I'll check'em out closely before ordering though.
efh Ed

Ed,
From what I understand, it's a "stetching" and fatigue thing,,, doesn't matter if they are recient or not,,, not really something that you will be able to see..

SPW
Steve Wincze

I'll buy that - just ordered all 4 from you-know-who. Thanks...
efh Ed

ed, how does the axle look where the u-bolts ride? i have seen axles that are almost sawn through. they sell a plate to cover the grooves if you have wear in that area. regards, tom
tom peterson

Ed, I second Tom's advise on these...kind of surprised they didn't say something to you when ordering the U bolts. They are simply a "shim" that goes over the axle for the bolts to seat on.
IMHO: Call and have them add these to your order.
Cheers David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

TOM,
Do you mean like this ???


Steve Wincze

I really can't see any reason to replace the U-Bolts unless the threads are rusted, they have worn at the top 'U' or they are bent at the bottoms from striking a road hazard.

The U-Bolts are compressing rubber. It is nearly impossible to neck or stretch them. That's why they require a lock nut to lock against. The wear that appears in the top axle is a natural consequence of them working loose due to the compressed rubber, having a bit of play, creating a sawing action. The movmement makes the problem worse, and soon you have some real wear. I do endorse the upper plates regardless if you have any damage to your axle or not.

My U-Bolts were a triffle long, and required a spacer, even with the upper axle plate. I did replace them from Moss, the new ones were a quarter inch shorter with better threads making all the difference in the world. The attached image is of the old U-Bolts with the spacer plates. You can see the spacer (larger ID nut).

In short, if your U-Bolts fit, and you have the proper range of adjustment, then reuse them. Do keep them taught. If you start feeling some axle tramp in reverse, it is time to give them a snug.

warmly,
dave


Dave Braun

When I did my TD my axle had the grooves that Steve showed above. I took the axle to a machinist and had him weld the grooves flush and ground smooth. I believe he did the welding a very little at a time so as not to warp the housing. Came out looking real good and has not caused further trouble.
R. K. Jeffers

Tom, you must be on Moss'es payroll! I had no idea this problem exists, but it indeed does on my TD. I just checked and added the "buffer plates" to my Moss order. Thanks for the warning, it probably saved me a disaster someday!!

Thanks Steve for the picture as well!

Ed
efh Ed

Ed,
When you do get around to putting it back together, you will have to tighten up the "U" bolts, then drive for a few miles, and the tighten them up again,,, as the "buffer plates/0r shims" will the to take the shape of the groves,, This retightening will most likely have to be repeated a few times or the loosness of the "U" bolts will give you a chatter when in first or reverse gear,,, a lot of times mistaken for clutch chatter.

SPW
Steve Wincze

Thanks again Steve, I owe you one! I probably would never have thought of that either...
Ed
efh Ed

This thread was discussed between 16/05/2009 and 29/05/2009

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