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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Jumper Starting MGTD

I am trying to get a dormant MGTD started. The wiring was left in a partially completed state. I connected all wires as described on the wiring diagram (integrated controls and fuse box) but can't get the car to turn over (new battery is installed). I hope someone will help with my two questions:

1. What is the sequence for the ignition/starter?
2. Which wires would I connect to skip the ignition switch (it may be bad) and get the engine to turn over? My guess is wire #36 and #? but I am having trouble understanding the overall wiring scheme?

Thanks for any help.
John
JohnB

When you turn the ignition switch, you should hear the fuel pump tick over. Then you have to pull the starter cable to engage the starter switch. This sounds really obvious, but from your message, I can't tell if you are aware that the ignition switch only arms the ignition. My appologies if I am assuming wrong.

You could jumper the starter with a heavy gauge wire and see if it turns over. 36 goes to the unswitched accessories. Wire 9 is the wire that connects the ignition switch to the switched accessories, and the ignition warning light (is that illuminating?) and also to the switch side of the coil.

dave
D. A. Braun

Dear Dave:
Thanks for the quick and detailed help. I don't hear the fuel pump tick. Any suggestions?

The ignition light isn't illuminating either.

John

johnb

Double check that you have a good connection on your heavy brown at the voltage regulator and on the ignition switch.

Check that you have a good ground also.
Bruce Cunha

Dear Bruce:

Thanks for the suggestion. The car had #33 and #37 seemingly switched (the wires from the ammeter were numbered). I switched them back to the "correct" side as shwon in the maintenance manual.

If I switch them back to the "incorrect" side, will I cause any damage by trying to start the engine if this is, in fact, backwards?


John
JohnB

John - The line to the starter is separate from the lines to the ignition, the starter should be wired as follows: The lead from the battery goes to one side of the starter switch, with The heavy brown wire that Bruce speaks of going from that same starter switch terminal to the regulator. A wire (same size as the one from the battery) from the other side of the starter switch goes to the terminal on the end of the starter. Watch the starter switch while someone pulls the starter knob and see if switch is being activated. If it isn't push on the rod that projects from the front of the switch (or pull on the rod and coupling on the back side of the switch and see if the starter will turn over (it is necessary to pull or push rather hard at this point for the switch to make contact). If the starter still doesn't energize, use a battery jumper cable to jump the two terminals on the switch together (Don't use light wire here or it will heat up before you can let go of it and will burn you). If jumping these two terminals together still doesn't energize the starter motor, then the motor is bad. Keep in mind that the starter is independent of the ignition switch, the ignition doesn't need to be on for the starter motor to turn over, only for the engine to run.

Regarding the wires to the ammeter, it doesn't hurt if the wires are backwards on it, it will only cause it to read backwards. Look at the battery and see which side goes to ground. If the positive side goes to ground, the ammeter should be wired as shown in the print to indicate in the correct direction (plus for charge and minus for discharge). If the negative side of the battery goes to ground, then the wires need to be reversed on the ammeter for it to indicate properly.

The fact that the fuel pump doesn't go tick, tick, tick when the ignition is turned on means that either you are not getting voltage to the pump or that the pump is not working (if the latter is the case, contact me about that). If the ignition light (located in the center panel of the dash) doesn't come on when the ignition is turned on, then you are either not getting any voltage switched on through the ignition switch or the light bulb is burned out. If you do not have a multimeter to check voltages through the system, then either get one or make up a test light by soldering wires to a 12 volt bulb and use it to start tracing voltages from the battery clear through the ignition switch. Clip one of the wires from the bulb to ground and use the other wire to probe at each junction. I don't have my wiring diagram in front of me right now, but if you run into trouble tracing through the system, e-mail me and I will guide you through.

A hint, take the drawing that matches your car, along with the color code to wire number to Kinkos and have them make a double size copy of each and then have them laminated together, back to back. This makes the diagram easier to follow and allows you to trace through it with a grease pencil as you go - makes troubleshooting much easier.

Finally, where in California are you? There are several clubs down there and if you are close to any of them, it is time for you to contact them and join. There is a wealth of information and one on one help to get you through the areas that you are not familiar with. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Hey John,
"The car had #33 and #37 seemingly switched".....is the car neg or possitive ground? Poss ground is "correct" to the car...but many of them have been swapped over the years. A "change" at the meter suguest this might be the case here. Did you look closley at old batt when it came out? Do have a fire ext. on hand! If it has been sitting for a long time, when you hear "ticking of fuel pump".. look at your carbs to make sure they are not pushing fuel all over the exhaust manifold!
What say Dave ...if fuel pump has been upgraded to "newer style" ...possibly why no "tickie" if batt is not right?
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

John,

Don't be in a hurry to fire this engine up without preping the engine first.

First I would change the oil and prime the oil pump (also best to remove the spark plugs while building oil pressure for the first time). In your case I would make sure the battery is hooked up proper, you will notice the terminal are two different sizes, this may tell you whether the previous owner had this as positive or negative ground. Forget about the ignition switch for now and manualy pull back the starter solonoid from the engine compartment. If it doesn't crank I would then bypass the solinoid and see if the started cranks then. If it still doesn't crank and all your connection are clean, sevice the starter. Fix or replace the starter and crank it over with out the switch on to make sure you have good oil pressure.

The fuel pump, disconect the fuel line from the pump going to the tank, if it been sitting for awhile the garbage at the bottom of the fuel line isn't any good for either the pump or carbs. Use a jumper wire from the hot lead of the battery to the fuel pump. If you don't hear it pumping it will need to be serviced. If it pumps, hook a fuel line to a remote tank (portable gas can) and see if it pumps fuel. You may want to remove the fuel bowl covers first to make sure the floats aren't frozen to the bottom of the bowls and you most likely will need to change the fuel lines from the pump to the carbs and from carb to carb. When it starts to pump, watch for leak/overflows. Be sure to fix them before you "fire" up the engine

When all that is done, check your fuses, and clean the connections in the fuse block. Then check to see if the switch works.

To bypass the ignition switch, you can use a houshold light switch (for testing purposes) wired to the hot side of the battery and the other terminal to the fuel pump and the terminal on the coil that dose not go to the distributor

PS In case you didn't know, you don't crank the engine over with the key.
Ron Boisvert

David S. is correct, if the fuel pump is an all electronic pump or one that has been converted to all electronic or solid state (same thing), it will not run if the voltage to it is thr wrong polarity. John, if you will send me your e-mail address, I'll e-mail you a fuel delivery troubleshooting guide.

That said, I think that right now, the more important thing is to sort out the wireing for the car and make sure that it is correct and the starter is working correctly. Also, Ron is correct in saying that you need to prep the engine before starting it. You can turn it over with the hand crank to make sure that it is not frozen, then get things lubricated before trying to start it up. He is also correct in being concerned about the condition of the fuel that is in the tank and how much crud is int he bottom of the tank. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Thanks for all of the help. I did manually pull the starter and that turned over the engine (just a turn)... Yeah! I had "drained" the gas tank ... not much there. If I put a gallon in the tank and it pumps, am I OK?

David D - I am in Anaheim and sent my app in to the local club, but haven't heard back yet. Is there a way to assess the crud in the tank other than removal and cleaning?... Can it be "cleaned" in place?

David S - How do I check fuel pump for "newer style"

Ron B - Thanks for the tips too. Luckily the previous owner had the ground wire and hot easily id'd.. ground is braided and the hot is red. Hot is on the right hand side of the car (US passenger side). Should I change the lines or just inspect and clean for now?

I'm trying to quickly assess condition to decide how much I need to put into it before moving forward.... If I can get the engine running smoothly, it will help me make a good decision.

Thanks again for everyone's help and support.

John
JohnB

Dave DuBois:

I tried to email to you, but it bounced back.
ddubois@sinclair.net?
JohnB

John,

You've gotten a lot of good advice here (much more complete than my initial answers). By assessing the condition, do you mean "Can you afford to restore this car?" Almost anything you buy right now to get the engine running (plugs, points, condenser, fuel pump, cap rotor) will all be useable in the situation that the engine might have to come out. If you are assessing, I would consider checking the fluids in the rear axle, the transmission, and checking brake and clutch pedal free play. Also, look underneath the instrument panel and see what the wood looks like, and check the fit and wobble of the hinges for the door. Then look at the steering rack for tears in the boots, and wiggle the wheels to see if the suspension feels tight.

If the body is good, and the brakes and clutch feel good, then making the engine run will result in a nice rolling fun car. You can fix and restore from there. It doesn't have to be a bunch of money at once, but it can be expensive, and budgeted.

Hope this helps your assessment.

Dave
D. A. Braun

Even if the tank has been removed and drained, the gas line is the lowest point. Disconect from the tank and pump. Put a rag, can, anything over the tank end and blow through the pump end with an air hose. All the crud and old gas will blow through the line and make a mess at the tank end. What I then did with mine is fill the line with about a 1/4 cup of Acetone, wait awhile and blow it out again. Using a remote tank will help you better realize the condition of your car. (less chance that something in the line will foul your efforts)

As for trying to quickly assess whether to move ahead, it's too far gone, I can tell, so I will just have to take it off your hands for a couple hundred. When you stop laughing, I'm sure you know I was kidding. These are not cheap cars to restore so be prepared to spend some money.

There are a couple of T series suppliers out there, my favorite, Abingdon Spare out here in NH http://www.abingdonsparesllc.com/ and of course you have Moss Motors, http://www.mossmotors.com/ but I buy from one of their resellers for less, The Little British Car Co, http://lbcarco.com/ If you have an issue with a Moss part, expect excuses, If you have an issue with an Abingdon Spares part expect to talk to real people who care and rectify the problem, not always the cheapest but the service level is top notch.
Ron Boisvert

John, a TD is extremely simple to wire up just to get the engine running. Besides the battery to starter switch cable and the starter switch to starter cable you only need two other wires. Remove the heavy brown wire from the starter switch terminal and disconnect the two wires that are connected to the back of the generator. That disconnects everything else from the system. Remove the wire (it should be white) from the fuel pump. Remove the wire (it should also be white) from the coil. There must still be a wire (ideally white/black) from the other coil terminal to the distributor. Now connect a wire from the ungrounded battery terminal to the fuel pump, and another to the coil terminal that you removed the white wire from. Your TD is now hot-wired and everything else in the electrical system is out of the loop. If you push the starter switch in (from the engine side) you should energize the starter and the engine should start if it's going to.

If you're concerned about the fuel tank/lines, bypass them. Remove the fuel line going into the fuel pump and get a fitting of the type that's on the line. Connect a short piece of copper tubing of the appropriate size to the pump input and connect a piece of plastic tubing on it and put it into a container of clean gas. Remember that there is a filter screen inside of the fuel pump.

Sheer simplicity. Just be careful to avoid sparks around the open container of gas and don't leave the wire on the coil for extended periods if the engine isn't running.
Bud Krueger

Dear Dave, Ron and Bud:

Thanks for all of the advice.

Ron - if the engine blows, I may take you up on it... long story behind the car...for another day...

I'll try the gas line trick and see if it works.

Three similar questions - sorry for all of the questions:
It appears that the wiring harness the "restoration dealer" tried to install is for a later model with the separate fuse boxes... It is brand new, never driven, just threaded through the frame... (and I have now attached the pin tips)... is there a marked for "semi-used" parts like this so that I can order the correct harness?

The bullet connectors from the local auto shop work, but seem a little small for the rubber connector boots... Is it me, or are the standard boots and bullet connectors slightly larger? If so, back to Moss or Abington... thanks for the tips by the way!

When I put the instrument panel back into place I have the choke and the started cables. The hole through the body for the choke is pretty simple, but what is the proper hole for the choke... and how do we clamp the outer sheath so that the cable stays put to allow me to adjust the choke cable?

One final item:
If I decide to restore, should I replace the chrome or is it better to strip and rechrome if I want to get to a show car (or concours) quality? We seem to have most, if not all of the hardware, but it has typical untreated dimples on the chrome..

Thanks for any advice and guidance. Again, sorry for so many questions. Hopefully as I go through this I can help others in the near future.

John

JohnB

John, regarding the wiring harness,used or NOS parts sell very well on ebay.
Try http://britishwiring.com/ for the connectors. They could also supply a new harness -- even if you car did not come with turn signals I would get the harness with the wires for the turns included.
On my car I have a combination of rechromed parts, reproduction parts, NOS and original parts which, to me, are very presentable with polishing. The small defects might bother a judge but they add some character to my car.
Regards,
Dennis
D F Sexton

John - My e-mail address is ddubois@sinclair.net Which looks like what you tried to use. Unless it had the question mark that shows up on you post, it should have worked, try again. I assume that, living in Anaheim you applied to Vintage MG Club of Southern California. If that is where you applied, you should be hearing something soon. If not, contact Jeanette Strovink at 714-685-0308. She is the membership chairman and should be able to help you.

The fuel tank can be flushed in place, but not completely cleaned. I would suggest following Ron's suggestion of cleaning the line between the tank and the pump. If you get a lot of junk, particularly rust particles out of the line, then the tank should be flushed well and then put on the list to remove and have it cleaned and sealed to get rid of all the rust, after getting everything else sorted out.

If the pump doesn't run with no fuel in the tank, it won't run with fuel in the tank. If it doesn't run, it is either not getting power, ground or it is a all electronic or solid state pump and the polarity to it is incorrect. You can take the end cover off and see if it has a black plastic pedestal with points under the cover or a green printed circuit card with a bunch of electronic components on it. The black pedestal with points is the old non polarized pump, the printed circuit card is the new all electronic pump that is polarized. If that is the case, I will need to get some further information from you to tell whether it is negative or positive ground.

To determine how the gar is set up right now polarity wise is to look at the battery terminals. If the terminal with the braided goes to is marked + or pos., it is hooked up as positive ground. If the terminal is marked - or neg., it is a negative ground.

Wiring components and harness should be purchased from British Wiring as Dennis suggests. They have all the parts you will need to take care of all your wiring needs and they know what every part is and how they are used. They are great people to work with and will make up a harness to fit whatever you want to do on the car. I am with Dennis, get a harness that includes the turn signal wires even if you don't have turn signals. That way, you can put them in at a later time (also, don't buy the over priced turn signal relay and switch from Moss, I can make up a set for you for a heck of a lot less money). This is also where British Wiring shines, your car probably doesn't have turn signals since you indicated that your regulator and fuse block are all in one, which puts it in the era that didn't have turn signals. British will make up a harness that will fit the regulator that you have AND have the wires for the turn signals.

The choke cable is routed out the grommet next to the horn, along with the wires for the horn and fuel pump and goes down to the carburetors. The rear carb should have a bracket that clamps the outer sheath of the cable and the inner cable runs to a bolt and clamping washer that has a clevis pin on the other end that goes into the choke lever.

Try again with my e-mail address or put your address in the body of your next post (the spammers don't pick the addresses out of the body of the posts) and I can start sending you photos that will answer a lot of your questions. Cheers - Dave

David DuBois

John - The link in the above post works when I send it to myself, so try again. Dave
David DuBois

Another good way to clean the fuel line is to go to NAPA and buy a thirty foot length of speedo cable, put it into your varable speed drille motor nad run it thru the fuel line with some solvent. Works like a toilet snake, done it many times and works great.
Greg & Grimm
G.J. Cenzer

John,

What year is the TD?? Let's make sure you have the right regulator before you part with a good harness ( with the new harness my offer is now $250 for the car )

As for the chrome, several people have told me that the aftermarket chrome will turn to rust when you turn your back to it. What you need to do is find a chrome shop that triple plates. Part is striped, sanded, copper plated, buffed, nickel plated, buffef, chrome plated, buffed and then they take your first born, your wallet with all your credit cards, and put a lien on your house. A good chrome shop can take the pits out after the copper plating process on door handles, etc. The light shells, wing lamp housings, radiator shell they can knock the ding and dents and repair the cracks after the stripping process.

Any digital photos of this car??

As far as asking too many questions?? Not at all. If it wasn't for questions, none of us would keep coming back to this site. We all learn something, whether it be something new or something we forgot!
Ron Boisvert

What Ron said about chrome.

But...

You can chrome ALMOST ANYTIME! Get the car running, and enjoy it. When you have everything else just about perfect, and money saved, take the chrome stuff off and go for the high quality finish. New chrome parts just don't have the same depth and 'color' of old chrome, or chrome done right.

dave
D. A. Braun

JohnB,
I agree with the previous comments about chrome,,,, but without really seeing first hand how bad your chrome is, you might want to try rubbing the chrome with a small wad of dry aluminum foil,,, it can do wonders on old chrome,,, and make it look decient until you get the small fortune required to do the re chroming,,,,

SPW
Steve Wincze

Chrome: I have had several things poorly plated and/or ruined over the years(hubcaps, rad. shell, parking lights). Paul's did my e-bay purchased shell- really beautiful. Things to probably replace: rear light trim rings (early TD)- paper thin, hard to chrome without trashing, and repros nice. Door latch/handles: most likely really worn out and shot. Original lock covers and outer handles are pot metal (as are tail light plinths for later TD/TF)- difficult and expensive to re-do. Parking light and headlight trim rings: at least a couple years ago genuine, new production Lucas rims were available. Things to chrome and not replace: all of the phillips screws (door hardware, windscreen, splash aprons). The repros are the ghastly and ugly "posidrive" types. The repro bumper face bars are not the correct curvature- the factory ones have a much longer "lip" (top curved part) and shorter bottom. This leaves a big gap esp. on TF rears.
George Butz

Thanks again for all of the advice and help. Won't having the wrong wiring harness hinder judging at a rally or other event, especially since this wasn't the original wiring (if I add the turn signals later)The same with the replacement chrome vs original???? How are these judged. I thought the key was to keep as much stock as possible? Sorry again for the total newbie questions.

I am used to redoing stuff that I screw up, but figure there is not need to intentionally go down a path that I need to redo later.

Ron - I will take some digitals this weekend. How do we post here?... It is a 1953.

David D - I sent an email again, my error on the typing of your address. The car is negative ground (in it's current status).... Is this stock?... I looked at British wiring, but which bullet should I be using with the harness I got from Moss (10 years ago)?... I assume the 4mm for "Euro and Japanese is for newer 'euro'.

Regarding clamping the choke cable, the "clamp" on my TD is two pieces of metal that flare at the end (into a "Y". I have the outer sheath resting under this "y", but see no way to clamp the outer sheath into place. The rest of the items I have... regarding the inner clamp, should the clevis pin be on the outside of the car or toward the motor... it was really a bear to get the lock piece through the bracket.

Greg - thanks for the speedo cable idea... I will try that before the acetone trick and use the acetone if this doesn't clean it out.

Again - all - thanks for your help

John
johnb

As far as replacement vs original, etc.: Where are you going to show the car? Antique Car Club of America would require much more strict originality. Our southern GOFs have seen a purple, louvered-hood, chrome wire wheel TC win, etc. No one but really serious die-hard T-series people would have any idea which harness you were suppose to have, and most of them wouldn't care! (Just my opinion). As far as the chrome stuff, again it depends. No way I can tell which of my hubcaps are repros (2) vs. the originals. Yes, there have been various ill-shaped and even ugly stainless steel repros, but mine (probably 15-20 years old) were perfectly shaped, and after chroming you can't tell. The bumpers are a different matter. George
George Butz

John,

Now you have me confused regarding your wiring harness??

"It appears that the wiring harness the "restoration dealer" tried to install is for a later model with the separate fuse boxes... "

You have a 1953 TD, your can't get any latter than that.

On your voltage regulator/control box, how many terminals does it have?
Ron Boisvert

John,

I also need to add that a 53 has turn signals, so there is no need to add them later, it should be in your harness already. See if the harness you have has the provision for them.

What is the serial # of your car? The plate is on the roadside (in the US) of the tool box and will start with TD

I think the only way for everyone to see the photos of your car is to have your own web site. Personaly I would like to see the photos and you can e-mail them to me at seaweednh@comcast.net

If you need photos of where componets belong, for example the directional flasher and relay, I can send them to you as well. I just picked up a 53 that appears to be unmolested with the exception of the black interior.
Ron Boisvert

I finally had time to try everyone's suggestions yesterday. Here are answers to most of the questions.

Car number
TD 25087
Engine 25431
Body Type 22381
Body # 24407/1799

Is there a way to verify the engine is still 25431?
Should this car have turn signals, the integrated controls, or not?

I tried jumpering the fuel pump (+ on the battery to the pump)... no go
It is a new sealed unit and has tape saying not to remove without instructions (non-existing).. It has a ground on the outside (passenger) side, with a positive bolt/nut attachment on the inside...

More interesting was the electrical... again, I have attached the wiring as if it is the older unit as the fuse/controls are integrated...

1. The starter works without the ignition on!
2. Turning the ignition on seems to do nothing... the ignition light does not light.
3. I tried to pin out the ignition. I could not get voltage on any of my pin attempts... assumed "9" is the hot?!

Did blow out the gas line... no rust that I could see, just some residue liquid. I haven't put the fuel in until I get the fuel pump issue resolved... It did start 8 years ago... could it be one of the "newer" silent pumps?

I have pictures if there is a way to post.

Also, Dave D - thanks for fuel guide.. I have a picture of the choke cable assembly - mine looks like yours, but the clamp bolt/nut is all of the way in and the "y" at the bottom is still too large to clamp the outer sheath...

Thanks everyone for all the help.. I will be ecstatic when the old guy finally "fires up"... Seems like the electrical issue may be the main road block.

John
johnb

Choke cable mount: Bend it. Use vice-grips or whatever with cable out, then loosen the pinch bolt/nut put cable in and tighten. Repeat/fiddle with until right. Fuel pump: hot wire it from known good 12V to check for viability. Is the car neg. or pos. ground? (braided vs. red vs. which side of car have no bearing on this. Which battery terminal- + or - has the short strap to the car body metal? Tracing wiring: electricity is like a map. Use your diagram with known good test light/meter. Ground one end, start at starter switch and follow the brown wires per diagram, one wire at a time. Be careful of shorting as not much is fused. Do any lights or any electics work? Hope this helps. George
George Butz

<<<snip>>>
Is there a way to verify the engine is still 25431?
<<<snip>>>
Look at the brass octagon plate under the exhaust manifold. The number is also stamped into the block under that brass plate

<<<Snip>>>
Should this car have turn signals, the integrated controls, or not?
<<<Snip>>>
The car should have turn signals. It should have a turn signal relay inside the cabin screwed to the side of tool box.

The car should have a seperate voltage regulaor and fuse block.

The starter will always work without the ignition on. There is no "solenoid" just a heavy duty spring loaded bridge type switch. Pulling the cable causes a comper disk to bridge across the two terminals.

<<<snip>>>
2. Turning the ignition on seems to do nothing... the ignition light does not light.
<<<Snip>>>
If you're hot wiring as described the ignition lamp is out of the circuit.

If you're not hot wiring, then also watch the ammeter. It should flicker to discharge slightly when the ignition switch is turned on due to the load of the coil, unless the ignition points happen to be open.

You car was probably produced in March 1953.

Regards,
Blake Urban
TD 25559
R Somerville

Dear Ron and Blake:

Thanks for the help. I'll try to mess with these tonight.

John
johnb

Got a chance to work on the car tonight.

1. The engine appears to be s/n 7868. Could this be a replacement for the original (25431). I can't believe such a low s/n engine would be used...

Rethreaded the choke - much better - thanks for the tips.

Tried the ignition - ammeter doesn't move.

Tried the voltmeter route - There is no power to the switch/fuse block ... Maybe I am really dull, but since the + (negative ground) is only going to the starter, unless the engine is started, how would any electicity get elsewhere in the car? Sorry if this is the dumbest question ever - but I am stumped.

Also - I uploaded some pictures - of the car, fuse/control box and the chrome condition.

The link to this site is http://www.flickr.com/photos/54657532@N00/

This is a good site as you can upload and store for free...hope this helps others.

John
JohnB

John - Somebody probably blew the original engine and replaced it whit whatever they could get their hands on. At this point you need to get hold of The T Series Handbook and Restoration Manual, available through the New England MG T Register <http://www.nemgt.org/>, Brit Books <http://www.britbooks.com/index.htm> or Moss Motors <http://www.mossmotors.com/>. This book has a list of what modifications were made to the cars and engines through the years and will let you know what to expect in the engine department.

Did you double check the car number on the left front dumb iron (frame extension) to see if it matches the car number on the maker's plate? That will be the ultimate check as to what the actual year the car is. According to what you found the car is a relatively late 1953 and should have turn signals, and the 5 post regulator (control box), with a separate fuse block, a high beam warning light and a foot operated dip switch. The drawing for this car will be the one on page N.23 of the shop manual. That said, your pictures show a rear fender that is from a 1952 TD (rectangular tail light), which may be a replacement fender. Someone also put wire wheels on the car which would be an aftermarket addition.

If you look at this drawing, at the battery, you will see that the negative post goes to one side of the starter switch, which also has two solid brown wires (33) coming off of it. One of these brown wires goes to the ammeter and (here is where things get different on the two control boxes) the other one goes to terminal A1 on the fuse block. Since you have the combination control box and fuse holders, there is no brown wire going to the fuse block or the control box. Look at the drawing on page N.21 of the shop manual. In this drawing, the brown wire goes to the ammeter and out on a brown/white wire (37) to terminal 'A' of the control box (there should also be a second brown wire going to the inspection light socket, but let's not worry about that at this point). From terminal 'A1" of the control box there should be a brown/blue wire (36) going to terminal 'A' on the ignition switch. From the ignition switch terminal "IG" there are two white wires (9), one going to the ignition warning light and the other going to terminal 'A3" on the control box - this is switched 12 volts. Terminal 'A3' on the control box should have two more white wires (9) coming off of it. One of these wires goes to the fuel pump and the other one goes to the terminal marked 'SW' or "-" or "neg" on the coil.

Looking at your picture of the control box and fuses, it looks like terminal 'A1" has a brown wire going to it, which would be incorrect, but I may be missing the blue tracer on the wire at that point. Terminal 'A1" does have a brown white wire going to it, which would be correct.

Now you can start looking for that missing voltage. You said " the + (negative ground) is only going to the starter". Let's start right there. This is the side of the starter switch that should have the brown wire going to the ammeter, so that has to be your first order of business, to find that wire. It may well be on the other terminal of the starter. If it is, then you need to check that it goes to where it should be going and nowhere else using the ohms setting of your multimeter. Before attaching the brown wire (where ever it may be to the proper terminal of the starter switch, disconnect the battery from ground (always disconnect the ground side first so if the wrench slips it doesn't connect 12 volts to ground while the battery is grounded and turn the wrench into a red hot welding rod). After you have the brown wire located and insure that it is connected to the correct places, you can reconnect the battery ground, preferably through a 10 amp fuse in case there is still some short somewhere in the system. I the fuse doesn't blow, you can try tracing the voltage through all the points above to the ignition switch. Once it is at terminal 'A' of the ignition switch and you have verified that the white wires from the 'IG' terminal of the switch go where they are supposed to, turn on the ignition switch and see if the ignition light comes on and the fuel pump goes tick, tick, tick.

On to the fuel pump, there should be a black wire going to the side of the pump or one of the coil housing to pump screws and a white wire to the terminal on the end cap. If it is a new unit that is tapped up, what is the color of the tape on it? If the tape is red is a positive ground unit and if the tape is black, it is a negative ground unit. That said, this is not an absolute. The pumps for the TDs should not be polarity sensitive unless someone got an all electronic pump to replace the original. The only way you are going to find this out is to remove that tape and get the end cap off of the pump to see what is underneath it. Don't worry about instructions at this point, the pump is no longer under warrantee in all probability, besides I am supplying the instructions. All you are going to do is to look at and perhaps take a picture of the area under the end cover so we can determine what you have.

The above should keep you busy and out of trouble for a bit. Let us know what you find. Cheers - Dave



David DuBois

Wow... that looks in great shape... The body panels look solid and straight... looks like the interior is ok and that dash is one nice piece of wood?
Don't worry too much about the chrome (at least the major parts)... go and get some "Autosol" and soft cloths and start rubbing..... Mine was all white when i started...

http://www3.sympatico.ca/gordonblawson/td/td.html
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Your engine (if it is marked XPAG), came from about mid to late 1951... just seems a lot older!

http://www.niagarabritishcarclub.org/mgtnumbers/numbers.html
gordon lawson - TD 27667

John,
You are getting some great advise from the pro's here! (same ones that helped me get my TF on the road again!) Don't get in a hurry to fire the engine up ....READ ME BOY READ! Best example I can give you of this is our latest toy. Purchased a 73 Opel GT in CA. Had not been started in 3 years so paid the transport co. extra $ to "winch" the car on truck. The truck driver "forgot" and started the engine. Yep, it started right up after sitting for 3 years. The down side? #4 piston ring was slightly rusted to the cyc. The ring snapped! This engine had been re-built before storage. A liitle extra time (what I was plannning, pull the plugs oil the cyc's, let sit "turn by hand in a couple of days", drain the gas, check the fluids) would have saved me lot'$! Now I am rebuilding engine, cleaning carbs, ect. Because somebody got lazy/in a hurry! Chances are if this car had not been started I would not have to do all this. The only "up" side? I do know for sure what I have now.
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Thnaks for the help... Life is a big mystery (or just a movie if you believe the trailer)...

I'll check the frame tonight and see what is found... Any more bets on whether the TD is

1. old and the body plates new or
2. the body is new, engine older, and the parts a mish mash?

Thanks for the compliments gordon.... I think it's in good shape too. That's why I'm trying to determine which way to go with the restore - driver, show, or better... we'll see after we determine which car it is...

Dave D - thanks for all of the details. I sent you and email to make sure that you could see the photo's - are they ok in the present form or do I need to cut down the pixel level. I'll pull the tape on the fuel pump and let you know what I find underneath.

Electrical - at this point, the car is set for negative ground. Since I am "rewiring", do I just need to swap the battery terminals to get back to "positive" ground and then start wiring as with the diagram? Or is there more I need to do before moving forward... Thanks for all of the help
JohnB

John - To convert back to positive ground, swap the battery connection, swap the connections on the primary side of the coil, swap the wires on the ammeter and finally flash the generator (no this doesn't entail a raincoat). First, for a positive ground vehicle the primary side of the coil is wired as follows: Terminal marked 'SW' or '-' or 'neg' gets the white wire from the ignition switch and the terminal marked 'CB' or '+' or 'pos' goes to the primary terminal on the distributor (wire should be white/black). Now, to flash the generator, proceed as follows: Remove the leads from both terminals of the generator, attach a wire to the small terminal (field) of the generator and with the other end of the wire, quickly touch the negative terminal of the battery two or three times. This should be a very quick brush across the battery terminal that produces a quick spark. Once done, disconnect the jumper wire from the field terminal of the generator and reconnect the original two wires. What you have done is to reverse the small residual magnetic field of the field poles, so that when the generator starts turning a small voltage of the proper polarity is generated by the armature, which is fed back to the field windings through the regulator, which causes a greater magnetic field to build up, which generates a bigger voltage, which...This cascading effect continues until the voltage reaches the proper level, at which point the regulator switches a resistor into the feedback path to hold the voltage at about 14.5 volts.

The other thing that you need to worry about is if the fuel pump is all electronic or otherwise polarity sensitive. Once you put a picture of the fuel pump with the end cover removed, I should be able to tell you if there is a problem there. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

A photo of the frame stamping is shown at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/54657532@N00/18625132/

I'm sorry but I can't get a cleaner shot as it appears that most of the stamping is ground off. Is there another place for a stamping?

The weird part is that it looks like a 6 digit number. Does this make sense?

John
johnb

John - I downloaded the picture and will try enhancing it. No, it wouldn't be a 6 digit number, the foremat would be TD/xxxxx. What I am seeing is that the number doesn't match what is on the maker's plate, but I can't tell at this point. Rather than being ground off, it may be that the letters/numbers have been filled when the frame was painted. Some careful work with sand paper and a scratch awl might reveal what the full number is. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

John, the first 2 characters in the stamping will be 'TD'. It would seem that you may have an early, 4 digit, Car number, i.e., pre-Sept. 1951.
Bud Krueger

That engine number would put the chassis number somewhere between TD 6000- TD 8000
That chassis may be TD 77?? (7700 or 7706?)
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Thanks for the guidance on the numbers - I'll try the sandpaper on the frame. Are there any other areas that have stampings?

Ill pull the tape and open the fuel pump this morning and post the pictures.

Thanks again for all of the great help.

John
JohnB

I was incorrect in my earlier post regarding the number on the dumb iron, there is no / seperating the TD and the numbers. The second character in the string is definitely a D. The third character could be a 4 or a 7 and the last number could be a 0 or a 6. If the number is TD470? the car would have been produced in Dec of 1950 if it is TD770? it would have been produced i May of 1951. Either way, the car is not a 1953. The only really definitive change made in the cars in that era was the 9 post regulator to the 5 post regulator made at car number TD8142 (according to the T Series Handbook and Restoration Guide). John, if you look just outboard of the regulator, are there two holes in the firewall about 1 1/2 inch apart that would accept a 10-32 size screw? That would indicate that the fire wall at least was from a later car that had the 5 post regulator. If not, then it looks like you have a early 1951 car and the 1953 harness is incorrect for it. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Dave - thanks for the update. I uploaded a good photo of the fuel pump and one opened (as you requested)http://www.flickr.com/photos/54657532@N00/18727258/

I am a complete bonehead. Everyone kept talking about the "brown" cable and I didn't know what you were talking about. I went back to the schematic and saw that the second wire should go from the starter switch... Found it, just wasn't connected - Lights work, starter warning light works (when ignition on), but still no "flicker" from ammeter and no "starter click" when turn ignition key.

Hope you can help with starter id so that I can feel comfortable moving ahead. I have left it negative ground for now until we get it going. Then, I will rewire and bring back to correct "positive ground" state.

Also, I sanded the frame slightly... It appears that the number is TD7706. Would the "0" have been shorter than the other numbers. I am hesitant to sand more as I don't think the indent is very deep at this point - frame was possibly sandblasted before repaint.

The frame is red underneath. Is this the standard color?

Two other questions
1. Does anyone have a photo of the brown wire routing to the starter switch and does it go on top of the battery cable on the switch?

2. When adjusting the choke cable, how tight is too tight? and is there an easy way to adjust to this tension?

Thanks again, everyone for all of the help and suggestions.

John
JohnB

Looks like date on generator is either a flat-top 3 or a 6/51, this would work with the 77xx chassisj #. Car 8142 was built in June 51 (thanks Larry for TSO index!). Dished instruments from after 107xx I think. George
George Butz

John - The fuel pump is positive ground, points style pump. I think that you need to switch back to positive ground before proceeding much further to avoid damage to the pump.

You will not get any click or other action from the starter by turning the ignition on. The starter is totally independent of the ignition switch and is only controled by pulling on the starter knob.

Speaking of the brown wire and the drawing, you now need to start working with the drawing on page N.21 as this is the correct drawing for your car now that we know that the car number is in fact TD7706 and it was buuilt in May of 51. Regarding the red on the frame, the frames were normally painted black, but there could have been a red primer used on it (I would advise using a resporator or at least a good dust mask when sanding any further on the frame as the primer could well be red lead used back in those days). The brown wire can be on top or under the battery cable where it is connected to the starter switch.

Regarding a flicker from the ammeter when the ignition is turned on, you may or may not get this depending on whether or not the ammeter is working.

Choke cable should be tightened just enough to remove the slack from the inner wire, but not enough to hold the choke levers back when the knob is pressed fully in.

Your car's dash has the dished speedometer and tachometer on it, where the original car had the flat faced chronometric instruments, but this could just be a case of the isntruments being replaced because they quit working. There is no turn signal indicator light in the facia plate, which is in keeping with the earlier car number. I can't see in the photo, but the lower right hand knob should be the same as the one immediately to it's left (both being switches for your car) and the empty hole on the left side of the facial plate should have the single oil pressure gauge as the combined oil pressure/water temperature gauge didn't come into effect until 1952.

I noted earlier that your rear fenders were early TD with the rectangular tail lights. Since the car has center lock wire wheels, I would suspect that the hubs from a TF were used, although the rear wheels may be on a complete MGA rear axle - that can all be sorted out later.

Good find! Dave
David DuBois

> At this point you need to get hold of The T Series Handbook and Restoration Manual, available through the New England MG T Register <http://www.nemgt.org/>, Brit Books <http://www.britbooks.com/index.htm> or Moss Motors <http://www.mossmotors.com/>.

You know, I tried to order that book from Moss Motors, however although it appears in their catalog, their web site doesn't show it in the database... Anyone know if Moss has stopped carrying this book?

Scott
Scott

Dave and George - thanks for the help... I'll start working on the conversion back to + ground. The holes you asked about near the fuse block don't exist... seems to confirm 1951 vs. 1953.

I'll take another picture of the dash if that will help.

What should I check on the rear axle to verify TF/MGA replacement.

Any other pictures that would help?

I will take a couple good ones with the body/engine tags... hard to believe they could look so good and, yet, be replacements.

John
JohnB

My guess would be chassis # 7706 which would also match the engine #s by the TD "list". Before your #, the engine number was about 174 more than the chassis # and after your # the increase was approx 475. car 3 7703 has engine # 8151, car # 7759 has engine # 8271

As for turning the ingnition switch on and hearing the starter switch click, it won't happen. To start it you turn the switch, almost silent, and pull the starter cable.

With the car sitting for a period of time, please prime the oil pump first!

Chances are the points probably need cleaning now. (or replacing) Get a point file and run it between the contacts. If you have an air compressor, blow them off. Then take a clean dollar bill, folded, and run it between the contacts. This will clean the fileings and dirt off the points without leaving lint. Turn the engine over by hand untill the points close. You can either connect the test light to the distributor side of the coil and ground and turn the key on. Gently and preferably with a small plastic or wooden stick (popsicle stick) open the points. The light should light. If you don't have a test light, do the same thing and look for spark at the points, if you don't see it, you may hear it.

Ron Boisvert

John - The rear axle can be identified as follows: The TD rear axle is accessed by splitting the housing at the bulge where the differential gears are. The MGA rear axle is disassembled by removing the nose piece from the front of the bulge for the differential gears.

A replacement maker's plate will look a lot better than the original plate, which has seen 50 years of wear.
Cheers - Dave

PS - Good observation Ron. Things are starting to fall in place now.
David DuBois

Good news - rewired for positive ground, ammeter works, light works... still need to check out fuel pump (silent at this point).

Good note on the float valves, they were "sticky"... got pushed them and they loosened up.

I have done everything except "prime the oil pump"

How do I do that?

Any other suggestions before I try to fire her up tomorrow?

Say a prayer and wish us luck.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

John
JohnB

John - If the pump doesn't start running as soon as power is applied to it, run some 400 grit sand paper through the points to clean off the contacts. After sitting for this period of time, they have probably built up a good layer of film that will keep them from conducting. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

This thread was discussed between 05/06/2005 and 12/06/2005

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.