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MG TD TF 1500 LED lights BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG TD TF 1500 - LED lights
| Just got my new LED Postive Ground tailights assemblys. Will post photos and such when I get them in. they are 40led bulb and really nice. |
| Tom Maine (TD8105) |
| Tom, will be very interested to see these photos. Do you have a picture of the tailight assembly?? John 54TF |
| J Ostergren |
| Tom: Are these the ones discussed on another thread or did you buy an 1157 replacement that is LEDs with an 1157 base? John www.kidsCURE.blogspot.com |
| Deikis |
| The lights fit in lieu of the old bed. All mounting hardware and instructions are with the kit. They are produced by one of our vendors in the area, BMC. bmcautos dot com/led. They run about 155.00 per pair. they are available in either negative or positive ground. They fit the square taillight of the TD. I am not sure if he makes them for the round one or not.  |
| Tom Maine (TD8105) |
| Well, I just installed the same LED tail light assembly (positive ground, but they are available for negative ground) that Tom shows in the photo above. I took a bunch of pictures (surprise!) and posted them in the 'on-going maintenance' section of the MG TD 15470 Restoration section of my website at www.dbraun99.com. The job was easy, and the tail lights are very, very bright. With my NAPA EL-13 electronic flasher I can tell no difference from the way the 1157 bulbs functioned. Brakes come on just as expected (I have the Dave DuBois brake lamp relay as well). The kit is very well thought out with stainless hardware to attach the LED light to the baseplate after the original assembly is removed. Since the original assembly used spring loaded terminals I had previously tinned my wires. I did have to remove the large bullet connector from the ground wire. The LED assembly uses a connector block with screw terminals so the tinned wires are perfect for the application, and I used dielectric grease as well. I did not have to shorten or alter my wires, so the change is completely reversible, if needed. Warmly, Dave  |
| Dave Braun |
| We are in a new thread please post supplier and cost Thanks Paul |
| Paul Hinchcliffe |
| Name and e mail are in my posting. above Dave Brauns.Cost is also there. |
| Tom Maine (TD8105) |
| If you search on LED you will find threads where I discuss building high output LED units for the tail lamps. They are MUCH brighter than stock (and brighter than any low power LED assy that I've ever seen including the ones described here) using a single Luxeon 3-die LED, resoldered to create two circuits lighting one LED for running lights and two additional ones for turn/brakes. These generate in the hundred-lumen plus range (105 per LED at 350ma, 195 per LED at 700ma) which means that if you ran them using the high power driver, each taillamp would be nearly as bright as a 1950's headlamp (which put out between 600-900 lumens in the day). I use the 350ma buckdrivers, they are considerably brighter than the incandescents but not TOO bright, they can be wired for either positive or negative ground, I have built them for both rectangular and round taillamps. I guarantee they are brighter than any other LED system on the market. They are pricier though, at $75 per lamp. (The LED and the buckdriver cost over $35 just by themselves) If you look through the threads, there is enough info for you to figure out how to build one yourself. Otherwise, I'd be happy to build one for anyone who is interested. |
| Geoff Baker |
| I decided to take a simpler route to LED tail lights. I purchased a pair of LiteZupp Type 1157 dual filament, red, positive ground devices (part number L57RP, $24.95 each). These are direct replacements for the existing Type 1157 incandescent bulbs. The pictures (attached) show the brake lights operating (only). In the top picture, the left light is the LED and the right light is incandescent. In the bottom picture both lights are LED. Look at the illumination of the surrounding surfaces to get a sense of the performance difference of the LED device versus the incandescent bulb. By keeping incandescent bulbs in the front of the car, there is sufficient electrical load on the system to allow the original flasher to operate the new LED units. http://www.litezupp.com Larry  |
| Larry Shoer |
| One more comparison (attached). These pictures are with both LiteZupp LED devices installed. The top picture is with the running lights on (only). The bottom picture is with the running lights and the brake lights on. The pictures were taken in full darkness with no ancillary illumination. The LiteZupp devices contain four LEDs. Two are turned on with the running lights. All four LEDs light up when the brakes or directionals are activated. The LEDs and glass lenses throw out a surprising amount of light to the sides and there are enough reflective surfaces on the TD that the rear of the car (yellow) really lights up when all four LEDs are on. Larry  |
| Larry Shoer |
| Larry, Simpler, and much less expensive. What's not to like? I see that litezupp also sells a white version of that bulb. Any particular reason you went with red? I would think the white through red lens would be brighter than red through red. Thanks, David |
| David Littlefield |
| David, Your question is an excellent one and critical for anyone considering LEDs. Please note the discussion at the LiteZupp website, which I am including below because of its importance: http://www.litezupp.com/content/so-why-not-use-white-led-behind-red-or-amber-lens-important-info -------------------------------- So Why Not Use a White LED Behind a Red or Amber Lens? - Important Info!!! You are ready to order your new LiteZupp LEDs. You look at the incandescent bulbs for your tail/stop lights you are replacing. You check the type and number and note that they are clear or white. You want to make sure you order the right LEDs so you specify "White" on your order. It sounds perfectly logical right?.... WRONG!!!. You are not going to be happy with your new LEDs. Here is the reason that you do not want to use white LEDs behind a colored lens or filter: White LED's 'trick' the eye into seeing white, unlike tungsten lights. Most White LED are made using two wavelengths of light, 460 nanometer Blue and 590 nanometer Amber. They are mixed about 70 percent blue and 30 percent amber. Using white LED's behind a filter (Red or Amber) will result in very little light being visible at all!. this is because our red and amber LEDs are color specific. They only emit one color, where as, incandescent bulbs and white LEDs produce all colors which produces a white light. So if you put a white LED, behind a red filter, all of the colors and the light energy required to produce those colors are filtered out, wasted, resulting in what appears to be a much dimmer light. Assuming that you are talking about using a white LED behind an amber or red lens, you will lose (in the case of an amber lens, about 70% of the light generated). It's a very counter productive thing to do. If this was not true, we would not bother to produce red and amber LED lamps! The physics behind all this mumbo jumbo is a bit complex. But all you need to remember is to use a white LED with a white lens, a red LED with a red lens, and an amber LED with an amber lens. That way you are certain to get the biggest bang for your buck! |
| Larry Shoer |
just for comparison... high power LED on the right.
 |
| Geoff Baker |
| Larry, Great info! Thanks. I was contemplating ordering bulbs for the MGA and would have got it wrong without your help. The TD is still too far from completion to be worrying about lighting it... David |
| David Littlefield |
| David, to add to Larry's color advice... any colored housing ONLY lets light of that specific color pass through. Light in all other wavelengths is absorbed, which means not only will a white light in a red housing fail to pass most of its energy - but also, that energy will be converted to HEAT. And that heat will shorten the life of the glass or plastic housing. So use the right colored bulbs in the right colored housing.. more efficient, more light passes through, and less heat is generated. That being said, with the variety of different colored lenses that I have seen on MGs, it's hard to say whether an amber bulb might not be more appropriate than a red bulb, depending on the housing. |
| Geoff Baker |
| This is an excellent thread. I've learned a lot. My contribution is the attached image file that you can right click on, and 'save as' for your technical MG files. Many thanks to the appropriate contributor(s). Gord Clark Rockburn, Qué.  |
| Gordon A Clark |
| ... sorry, I up-loaded the incomplete image. gac  |
| Gordon A Clark |
| Sorry, Gordon and everyone, I should quickly point out something at least one of you has already noticed... Gordon's photo caption is wrong. My picture (my 52 MG) has a white INCANDESCENT bulb on the left, and an amber LED on the right. This picture was intended to demonstrate that my high power LED system is much brighter than stock incandescents, it was NOT intended as a comparison between white and amber/red bulbs of any kind. In that the incandescent bulb does generate light in all wavelenghts and most of that is absorbed by the housing, it is wasting far more energy than the LED; but there are so many other factors involved its not worth trying to explain all the issues here. So, to reiterate - the light on the left is NOT an LED it is a standard incandescent; and the picture is intended to compare overall brightness between LEDs and incandescents, and NOT to compare the effects of white or colored lamps. |
| Geoff Baker |
| My apologies to Geoff Baker. I misinterpreted the caption that went with the photograph, and as Geoff has indicated above, the comparison is between an LED and an incandescent lamp, and NOT between two LEDs. Gord Clark Rockburn, Qué. |
| Gordon A Clark |
| I have an additional piece of information to share based on conversations with LiteZupp. The LiteZupp Type 1157 LED device draws approximately 350 milliamps at 12 volts. In comparison, a Type 1157 incandescent bulb draws approximately 2.1 amps. The LiteZupp LED device draws 1/6th the current of the original incandescent bulb. This considerably eases the electrical burden on the wiring and the brake switch. (Note that there have been many discussions in the past about the lack of current carrying ability of modern replacement brake switches.) Larry |
| Larry Shoer |
| All LED lamps will use far less power than an incandescent. Mine use 350ma per circuit, so 700ma or .7 amps, when both circuits are on (I suspect the Zupps also are stating 350ma per circuit, and higher when the brakes or turn signals are applied). I got a message back from LightZupp; the running lamp circuit on their bulbs only puts out 40 lumens or so. Mine generate 105. It is very hard to equate bulbs based on approximate brightness. Low power LEDs are typically rated in millicandella which factor in beam angle. High power LEDs are typically rated in lumen. "Watts" is an entirely meaningless term when considering bulb brightness. Incandescents have a nearly perfect 360 beam pattern. The best LEDs have only about 170 degrees. However, it's pretty clear if you look at our taillights from the side that the housing itself narrows the beam pattern to less than 180 degrees, so a well-engineered LED or LED array can do just a good a job as an incandescent when it comes to beam patterns. |
| Geoff Baker |
| Geoff, We're really populating this thread with good information. Do you know how many lumens a Type 1157 incandescent bulb puts out? It will be a useful reference point for the discussion. (I'm sure other factors enter the equation, too. For example, LEDs put all their lumens in a more directed path than incandescents.) Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Larry |
| Larry Shoer |
| I tracked down the answer to my own question. A standard Type 1157 incandescent bulb (for example, a Sylvania bulb) puts out 38 lumens from the lesser light element and 402 lumens from the greater light element. A comparison to an LED light is somewhat complicated. For example, if the 1157 incandescent bulb is behind a red lens (as would be the case with a tail light), all colors but red will be filtered out by the lens. This will certainly reduce the amount of light (red) observed to considerably less than the stated lumens. The incandescent bulb also emits light (lumens) approximately equally in all directions. In contrast, LEDs typically emit their light in a much more directional manner. Perhaps the most reliable way to determine the relative brightness of a particular LED unit is to use one's eyes to decide. After all, the real reason to change the source of light is to make it more visible to the driver behind. Larry |
| Larry Shoer |
| I have been watching this thread with interest. I expect that I am not alone in trying to disseminate all this techie jargon. Despite having an Electrical Engineering background (computers were just coming alive in 1951), and the transistor was in its absolute infancy), I have never really caught up to the technology, and continue to be mystified. I also suspect that I am not alone in wanting to up-grade my lighting system. Ideally I want to be able to buy something that I can quickly change for the present 1157, and have better performance without the need of special circuitry and relays. Perhaps one of you Gurus can address this. Gord Clark Rockburn, Qué. |
| Gordon A Clark |
| Gordon, I have to agree 100% with you. This thread and the other recent one have been extremely interesting BUT for many of us the idea of constructing something that is brighter and wont melt or smoke is past our abilities. It also appears to me at least that this technology is very rapidly evolving meaning we may be wise to wait a short while. The real guru on this appears to be Geoff Baker from Arizona who from what I can gather seems to feel that newer, brighter and less expensive, red LEDs with a wide light pattern are just around the corner. I think I'll just wait for his final recommendation (assuming we can keep him buying, building and testing LED systems!) I also agree with you that a simple 1157 replacement would be the perfect solution for us. As a short term solution I think I might order a set of the inexpensive 1157 LEDs from the UK and give them a try..... Chris |
| Chris Malcolm (TD 29228) |
| Larry, thanks for researching 1156/7 incandescents, those numbers fit roughly with what I've seen. The problem, as you note, is that an incandescent puts out 400 lumens of WHITE light, most of which will be filtered out by the red lens. A LED puts out 360 lumens of red light, MOST of which gets through the housing. So lumens to lumens there is a HUGE difference based on the lightwave spectrum! Because the LEDs emit light in the correct spectrum, they appear brighter which is a good thing naturally, but it does make comparison difficult. Gordon, you don't want to deal with special circuitry and relays (actually, no relays, just electronic "drivers")... sorry, but you won't get to do that... whether the LED is a plug in variety or one that needs to be wired, the special circuitry is there! That seems to be the current problem; building an LED that incorporates two electronic drivers in an 1156 or 1157 base as a one piece item, that puts out plenty of light, is quite an engineering challenge. The more you pack the LED and drivers together, the more heat becomes an issue. If you're buying LEDs I guess the rule is plug them in and if they look brighter to you, then they will look brighter to the person driving behind you talking on a cellphone... so that's good. But MOST LEDs of the plug in variety are not yet as good as a new incandescent. My personal goal is to make my MG as visible as a 2011 model car; and because 2011 cars have much larger light areas, much better reflectors, much better lights and of course, a 3rd brake light, the light I put into my MG housing has to be a LOT brighter than a standard 1157 incandescent to be as visible as today's vehicles on the road. I'll probably be testing a new version this year, putting out 500+ lumen or so. I'm still working on the front running lamps, and would love to build a 2 LED front lamp that is amber for turn signals and white for running. But I may have to switch to negative ground and a new flasher unit to make that happen... |
| Geoff Baker |
| just refreshing this topic! |
| JIM NORTHRUP SR |
| Keep it up everybody, as it is "SAFETY FIRST" in our minds. Geoff, great article. But I think like you stated, I will wait awhile. As I wish to see a Positive ground LED which is as visual, similar to a 2011 car, and operating the turn signals efficiently as well. Cheers, Barry |
| C B Ryley |
| Mine are Positive Ground as stated. No one misses them when the brakes or the turn signals are on. |
| Tom Maine |
| Geoff, what about an update on your project as mentioned in you 01 May 2011? I am looking forward to a positive ground red LED for my TD with rectangular tail/brake lights that will work with my factory type directional signal system. |
| Jim Merz |
| I am curious too to hear about Geoff's findings on the 500 lumen version. I am very happy with his current LEDs on my TDtail: really outstanding brightness and in my mirrors I can see that cars behind me respond promptly to my LED signals. Feels safe so thanks again Geoff. Greetings, Huib |
| Huib Bruijstens |
| To Tom Maine and Dave Baun, I am at the decision stage of ordering a set of BMCautos red LED rectangular tail lights for my TD. I am wondering how the units are holding up by now and if you both had to change the flasher unit to an electronic model (NAPA EL-13)? Somewhere I read that you have to be careful of the manufacturer for the NAPA part because one worked and the other supplier's flasher did not. To Huib Bruijstens, I corresponded with Geoff the other day and he said the project for the 500 lumne lights has been abandon due to excess heat problems. |
| Jim Merz |
| Sorry, I should have posted on this. Thanks Huib for your review of my LED lights! I also am very happy with them. Jim, I should explain that I didn't abandon the 500 lumen project because of excess heat problems; I just never got that far. I decided that over 500 lumens of proper wavelength amber/red light (nearly the brightness of an old style headlamp) is just too much light and might pose a danger to other drivers. And yes, I was concerned about the possibility of heat, but frankly I think one could engineer around that. There are now 1500 lumen LED's available, but they have to be mounted on a board with a constantly running fan, so clearly, heat can be a problem. I would imagine that a 500 lumen LED would work perfectly well so long as the heat sink was big enough (and I would be willing to bet it would still fit just fine in the standard housings). I never got further on my LED front light project because I haven't bit the bullet and done a full negative ground conversion; and the last time I was working on the project, I simply could not find a positive ground flasher that would work with a full set of LEDs for all running lights and turn signals. Converting to negative ground would solve the problem easily, there are hundreds of 'no-load' electronic flashers for negative ground that are LED compatible. I'll just reiterate one point: I have yet to see an LED assembly of low power LEDs which will output as much light as my high power LED lights (which anybody can build if they research the original threads here)... and secondly, having tested many 1156/57 drop-ins... I didn't like them and they were none of them at the brightness level I wanted to achieve. Good luck to everybody with ALL your LED choices! |
| Geoff Baker |
| Jim, I have one that has something wrong with it and I am going to have it changed. They are going to work on it for free since I talked to them and they have had almost no problems with them. I am very happy with them and will not go back to the old style. This has been almost three years and no problems, my flasher is just an ordinary flasher, nothing fancy. think it came from NAPA years ago. THat he would honor the warranty this late is a big plus. Nice people, of course you all know that... |
| Tom Maine |
| http://bmcautos.com/ site has a problem, I can't get to the "online store" page or to the "lamps" page. do get their error msg, don't think it's a problem on my end. Al |
| A W Parker |
| Al, I received an email from Brian McCullough of BMC autos this morning concerning an inquiry I made to him. He indicated his website is down now and has to do all communication via phone or email until they get it up and running again. Your computer is not the problem. I used info at bmcautos dot com. His phone is 651-400-0145 I believe. |
| Jim Merz |
| thanks Jim Al |
| A W Parker |
| Good day again all: I have installed positive ground designed LED inserts in both TC Lucas Mod.# ST 51 break/stop lamps (I added a second lamp as there was only one affixed originally). Anyway, as TC owners know both the lamps, in the original form, are next to useless in the candlepower output. Similarly, obtained from another source, I installed positive ground boards for the Lucas Mod.# 471 lamps of the TD. Both TC and TD items are sculptured to fit the existing lamp shapes and have the three wire connection arrangement as per the original equipment bulb holders. I was further instructed to upgrade (?) my flasher units and a Tridon EL 13 was the recommended model to employ. As a result daylight driving is seen as brilliant and night driving, if I must, is even better. Cheers then: Jack Emdall, TC6768/TD3191, Halfmoon Bay, British Columbia, Canada |
| kernow |
This thread was discussed between 22/02/2011 and 04/11/2013
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