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MG TD TF 1500 - Little hole behind oil pan with cotter pin

Restoring 54mgtf. Got enough together that we did a test drive down driveway last night. A lot of oil leaked out of the little hole behind the oil pan/sump that has the cotter pin in it. What causes this? I don't think this is good news.
Ed Eastman

Hello Ed
Welcome aboard. Your MGTF is just marking it's territory, much like the family dog. The little hole with the cotter pin in the clutch bell housing, is the rear bearing seal pressure relief valve hole. Seriously, when you shut your engine off a small amount of oil leaks from this hole. It comes from the rear engine seal and should not be more than a couple of teaspoons. This is quite common on our engines and unless excessive not worried about. John
John

A lot of oil leaked out. This wasn't a drip or ooze. This was a lot. It formed a puddle under the car and a train of oil down the driveway.
Ed Eastman

Hi Ed, That is not good. Search the archives for rear main leak, oil leaks, etc. Volumes have been written here about that. First check for a loose oil line on the block/head, leaky side or valve cover, as they all drain down and off the back of the pan. What kind of rear seal did you use? If the original scroll type, leaks are possible from: improper set-up of upper slinger/ improper fitting of rear main cap after line-boring block/ lack of sealer and/or rear pan seal pops out when putting the pan on/ rear oil galley plug/rear cam core plug. None of those are good. The guy doing the bodywork on my TD told me Moss had a batch of 10 cranks with the scroll machined backwards- hope yours is not one of them. George
George Butz

Ed,

Your sump may be over-filled.

You can argue that the dipstick level seems OK, but sometimes too, the dipstick doesn't fully seat, giving the impression that it is fully inserted.

First, make sure the dipstick tube is absolutely straight and the correct length (somebody please help on that one - I'm too lazy to go to my garage and measure it)

And, it's just possible that the two "blades" of the dipstick are sufficiently spread so as to prevent complete insertion. In such a case, the reading will always show less than is actually in the sump, resulting in topping up unnecessarily and excessively.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Ed, I assume you will eventually get there and the excessive leak will disappear. If not, I have seen articles of people threading that hole and adding a pipe that would either suck up the oil - for instance, using the vacuum of the inlet manifold - or deposit it in some container to be emptied every so often.

I know that problems has plagued many people, and curiosly I do not have it, but I have leaks at the front ending of the crankshaft, even though I carefully sealed the modern double-lip seal with silicon. I have never been able to remove it. But right now I have other things to do!

Good luck and let us know how it went.

Denis
Denis L Baggi

It sounds as though your rear oil seal on the crank shaft is not in good condition. but do nothing until you have taken it on a long hard run and then see how much oil you have lost from the sump. Some oil leakage is good - it stops rust on the chassis (the first owner of my TF used to spray the underside of the car with waste oil every week to keep it in good order). The remedy, if it is a serious leak means pulling the engine and replacing or modifying the rear oil seal which is reverse throw. Here in the UK there are good men who can sort this out. Try Peter Edney in the UK.
Bob Marshal

I would like to eliminate the leak from the front seal, something I have tried for years with no success, in spite of carefully installing a modern double-lip seal.

Denis, 1950 TD
Denis L Baggi

Denis - "I would like to eliminate the leak from the front seal, something I have tried for years with no success, in spite of carefully installing a modern double-lip seal." Check the crank shaft pulley for a crack in the sealing surface. The crack usually appears right along one edge of the keyway and while it doesn't leak itself, it will shave the lip of the seal down and allow it to leak. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Denis, see http://www.ttalk.info/Tech/CrackedPulley.html for a look at such a crack as Dave mentions. - Bud
Bud Krueger

Thank you gentlemen. In fact, I did have a crack in the crank shaft pulley, so I replaced it with a new one, and also a new seal. The amount of leakage is less, but it's still there.

Are you David and Bud telling me that a correctly installed double-lip seal will be leak-free?

Thanks, DEnis
Denis L Baggi

I installed a modern lip-type seal when I rebuilt my engine. I have ne leakage at the front of the sump. Must admit that it took a bit of fiddling with the bottom edge of the timing cover to assure a good fit. But it works.
Bud Krueger

OK, thanks, next time I take down the sump I'll bemore careful.

Denis
Denis L Baggi

Denis, I never could get it to not leak. Turns out that when my block was line-bored, the crank centerline was raised up enough the seal (when seated in the pan/timing cover) was not centered on the crank pulley. There is a write up somewhere how to have a machine shop center the seal opening on the actual crank center and machine a recess in the assembled pan and timing cover to avoid this problem. I used the original rope seal, and the "optional" larger slinger washer (from Abingdon spares), which reduced my leakage.George
George Butz

A friend with a TC had a little 'machined cutter' made up at a machine shop... it slides over the front of the crank and when turned, cuts a grove into the timing cover/pan...very slick. The seal is then centered on the crank and cuts evenly.
I'm of the opinion, after reading hundreds of posts, and talking to dozens of owners, that there are very few successful seal kits/diy methods and that an XPAG that doesn't leak a bit of oil is unholy and not to be trusted...!!!

gordon - 'self rustproofing TD'
gblawson - TD#27667

George, from what I can tell the crank pulley is exactly in the center of the double-lip seal. But I always thought that such a scheme can not possibly be leak-free, because there is gap between the seal and the shaft. Am I wrong there? Something from physics I don't know?

Gordon, that sounds extremely interesting and I would be very grateful for more details. I only know of a complicated scheme by Bill Bollendonk from Denver who had both the sump and the chain cover re-machined with an altogether different sealing system. I think this was published years ago in the journal of the Octagon Car Club.

My gratitude to you both, this small drip is the last annoying leak I have after having removed fuel and water leaks, happy that I have no leak from the back end of the crankshaft, even though I replaced the cork seal between sump and bearing cap.

This said, I know that proper British cars di leak oil!

Denis
Denis L Baggi

Hei Ed
Have sent you a separate mail to your home mail address with scans of the rear oil sealin my 1250cc engine block. Have additional info (Drawings and a rewritten guide)if you need it (and I can find it)
Hope you find it interesting
Best Regards, Chris
Chris

Denis,

If you have a gap between the seal and the pulley hub, you have the wrong sized seal. Mine fits exactly and does not leak. I used the one from Moss USA.

I also had the "new" Moss seal on the rear....NO LEAKS!!!! (1 year ago)
Don Harmer

Dennis, Gordon,
I also had such a crack and bought a new pulley. However, I noticed many tiny little holes on the surface that would go with the seal so I decided to install a Speedy Sleeve on this to create a very smooth surface. Second is that an MG friend borrowed me his special tool to fabricate a concentric opening around the crankshaft as Gordon mentioned. To me, this is really a fantastic tool: instead of taking the complete engine to a large cutting machine, this tool uses the crankshaft end (it has a bearing inside that exactly fits on the crankshaft end). It has a small cutter (the rectangular piece on the side) that cuts an nice concentric space for the seal. Look at the picture. You can see the spanner that I used to turn the tool whilst cutting. During my recent engine start-up, the seal stayed completely dry. Greetings, Huib


Huib Bruijstens

That is basically what my friend used...his was a bit more 'backyard' then that finely machined one!!!
gblawson - TD#27667

Thank you Huib, I will see whether and where I can find such a tool.

Don, I also use the Moss double lip seal.

Thanks to everybody, now I know something new!

Denis
Denis L Baggi

Hi Folks,

Just back from some sunny days at the beach,
My solutions is buy the engine-oil in big cans of 60 or more liters. My TD leaks only a little at the back of the sump (just a few drops after at least a hour of driving). Now let's see how the newly bought 1948 MG TC will be in the dripping department when it comes to the dock of Rotterdam.

I'm picking it up tomorrow and I can't wait :-)

Cheers,
Joop


Joop Terpstra

Beauty Joop... looks lovely... have fun picking it up and driving home....!!! We will need a full report!
gblawson - TD#27667

Hmm well a full report you want okay here we go.

Last friday we took it from the docks and it's without any numberplates -because it came from USA- so it's illegal to drive it here in Holland. But I sat in the car and yes I drove it out of hangar and on the trailer under her own power and the Marshall blower which is on it makes a hefty noise and the throttle response is very different compair to the TD, very nice and so is the exhaust-note; like a barking mean little dog :-) and I think I smelled some CASTROL R oil from the sump. Anyway it needs a little cosmetics in the paint depatment and the brakes needs a rebuild. Anyway it is what it is a nice used, matching numbers 1948 MG TC with a nicely working Marchall on it. I don't think it needs a complete restoration but at least a respray and new brakes.

I'm not sure if I can keep it because i have a problem putting both cars under roof, so maybe it will come for sale again, I just bought it so that at least it will not be lost at a US dealer who wasn't a enthousiast for MG's but was more a BUICK and CADILLAC guy.

If there is any interest here send me a e-mail: amilcarfrance@hotmail.com and i will be in touch.


Cheers,
Joop


Joop Terpstra

Hi ED
Here is a link to the Chicagoland MGT Club with a fix by Skip Burns for the leaking rear seal.

http://chicagolandmgclub.com/techtips/mgt/oil_leak.html

You can look it over if you have to pull your engine, because of the rear seal leak. It's a real good article. John

John

An enthusiast in Rorschach, Switzerland, has built a kind of pan that does not protrude but catches all of the oil, from the front, back and gearbox and attaches to existing bolts. I will try it, and if successful I will gladly answer questions and provide pictures.

Denis
Denis L Baggi

Joop... if you smelled Castrol R, you should check...if it is 'R', you should flush it out of there...not an oil for everyday use!!!
gblawson - TD#27667

Bingo!!!Resurrecting. Bud
Bud Krueger

Interesting cutting tool picture. However, I was always told, at least with my Morris Minors, to leave the timing cover slightly loose, insert the crank pulley to center the timing cover around the seal and then do the final tightening of the timing cover. Not sure if this would also help on the issue with the XPAG engine. Minors have pressed steel covers and sumps and early ones have a felt ring seal. Later ones a modern round rubber seal.
John Quilter (TD8986)

Bud,
You are absolutely the research guru.

John,
In addition to the centering issue is the fact that you have to take half the car apart to change seals. If I understand the tool correctly it removes the material from the front of the cover and pan and you slip the seal directly in from the front. I'm not sure if there is anything positive to keep the seal from moving forward.
If the tool just reaches in and up to clean out the seal seat then it may center it but you still have to take the car apart.
Does anyone know the detail on how this works?

Mort
Mort 50 TD (Mobius)

This is interesting, and may explain the differing results from all the forum participants. If the oil pan, crankshaft and timing cover are all off center or mis-aligned or just floating around we have to consider our options. I like the cutting tool approach except for the shavings left in the engine.
Has anyone tried putting a thin sleave on the pully and forcing it into the original wick seal. I know they get pretty hard with heat and age but at least it would put everything on center.
???
Chuck
cj schmit

Why not ask Huib? Last I knew his email address was bruijst (at) iae.nl. Bud
Bud Krueger

I've sent an email to Huib. Let's hope. Bud
Bud Krueger

If you have the pan off, it is just a few more bolts to take the timing cover off too. I have installed the double lip Volvo seal on several cars, no leaks. None. Zip, zero.
-David
D. Sander

I believe some of our friends from up in Ottawa have made a tool for the FRONT seal replacement,,, and it can be done without taking the car apart,, as long as you can get the pulley off,,,,

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

This thread was discussed between 13/08/2007 and 29/01/2014

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