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MG TD TF 1500 - Marilyn Monroe TD sold for $210,000 in 2011

I must have missed this back in 2011 when it sold at auction for $210,000.

I will provide you a few links about this car and the object of this game is to figure out if the buyer of this car got what they paid for. Forget the price. That is not important to the question. The question is one of provenance.

There can be pros and cons for both sides. Lets see what you all think and please post a picture if you make a claim one way or the other and explain your reasoning.

http://www.icollector.com/1952-red-MG-TD-used-by-Marilyn-Monroe-and-Cary-Grant-in-Monkey-Business_i10658113

http://www.flickr.com/photos/popculturegeek/5852141756/

https://picasaweb.google.com/margus11/HollywoodForSaleDebbieReynoldsAuction2011June18?authkey=D3KDaCZPRIg#5620600403579072866

Let the games begin ...
Christopher Couper

Well look at it this way, if a base ball card can sell for 2.8 Million (Honus Wagner), a piece of cardboard, I see nothing wrong with paying $210,000 for that car! It's not the car, it's what it represents and if you have the money and want it, go for it! It's memorabilia. JMHO. PJ
Paul S Jennings

If the links are to actual sales text it's pretty clear that the car never belonged to Marilyn Monroe. All of them state that it was used by her and Cary Grant in a movie and then purchased as part of a studio lot by Debbie Reynolds.
It's presented pretty clearly with no gaps in provenance as of when it left 20th Century Fox.
Value is in the eye of the buyer.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

Celeb ownership doesn't mean much to me. The only thing I can say with certainty is that the windscreens and the tonneaus don't mach. The tonneau I can understand. The windscreen needs some explanation I'd think.
MG LaVerne

OK LaVerne, I give up. Except that the lower wind excluder is folded back the wrong way I don't see the problem with the windscreen. Educate me. Thanks. Jud
J K Chapin

Look at the position of the wiper motor Judd.
MG LaVerne

You guys are incredible. Every photo gets the "spot the difference" treatment ...

Rgds Mike
Mike Fritsch

I'm not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing Mike. Chris threw it out there so I was just pointing out what jumped out at me.
MG LaVerne

It's in the center in the movie pix and on the right in the color pix. That would tell me one or the other was changed. Not knowing TDs, I wouldn't know the difference for a certain year model, but it's not the same as in the movie pix and that should be correct for the car used. PJ
Paul S Jennings

Again the debate is not on the price or the ownership, but if this car is actually what it is described to be (since that is what set the price).

LaVerne is on the right track and has certainly found a significant clue. There are many others like it once you start pouring over the details of the car depicted in the movie (some internet searching will get you every frame of the movie that had the TD in it and video too). Some of the clues are very subtle and some are more obvious, like the one LaVerne spotted.

But remember. This is just a game anyway. If you want to participate that's cool. If you want to follow along that's great also. In the end of the day nothing in the world will change because we dug into the details of this particular car. Just something to occupy our time on cold winters nights.
Christopher Couper

"It's in the center in the movie pix and on the right in the color pix."

I think you have that backwards PJ, but in the end something was changed.
L Karpman

The windshield wiper actually is not on the car for most of the close up shots. I suspect it was not a good idea for it to block our view of Marilyn :-)
Christopher Couper

The windshield wiper motor makes me wonder if it really is the same car. The ad also states it has the original paint but if you will notice the rear bumper extensions are also painted red which isn't original plus the headlight supports have been chromed and the seats and door panels are black.
If the car had just been used in the movie or movies and then sold to Reynolds without being driven much why all the changes.
Rich (TD 3983) Taylor

I'd have a hard time condemning the car on the position of the wiper motor. That's an early car (square taillights) with a later position wiper motor (center). I haven't looked up all the transition dates, but with as little evidence as we have, that could very well be a replacement windshield. Also note that the listing says the car was "rejuvenated with new chrome" which may have included a center-motor windshield surround from Moss.

Same goes for the bits and pieces. Movie cars are notoriously abused during filming and maybe some things got "fixed." Apparently it was also abused by Princess Leia, perhaps while she was under the influence of pharmaceuticals, as she often was. Upholstery and other things tend to deteriorate even in storage and could result in less than original items.

It does have the odd license plate lamp in both the auction photos and the movie photos, as well as the non-factory oh sh*t bar on the dash, though the one in the movie photos looks more substantial.

I'm guessing the buyer had access to the paperwork, the chassis VIN, etc., which would prove provenance much more handily that trying to guess what has been changed in 40 years of ownership by someone that probably wasn't particularly concerned about keeping every bit and bob as purchased. And did it just sit in a 20th Century lot for almost 20 years without being touched? What else was done when the chrome was "rejuvenated" and the engine and transmission rebuilt? We just won't know...

I understand it is a game, and I'd be interested in the variances others spot, but I don't think a conclusion is possible.

David Littlefield

Dave L: You are doing very good and your statement on a conclusion is spot on too.
Christopher Couper

I hope the buyer read the small print about provenance (under "Terms") :
10. Warranties. Profiles does not provide any warranties to Bidders or Buyers, whether expressed or implied, beyond those expressly provided for in these Conditions of Sale. All property and lots are sold “as is” and “where is”. By way of illustration rather than limitation, neither Profiles nor the consignor makes any representation or warranty, expressed or implied, as to merchant ability or fitness for intended use, condition of the property (including any condition report), correctness of description, origin, measurement, quality, rarity, importance, exhibition, relevance, attribution, source, provenance, date, authorship, condition, culture, genuineness, value, or period of the property.
Peter Pope

For those that want to go deeper I have found a source with high resolution images for the auctioned car:

http://gingermeme.pixnet.net/album/photo/153628829

So you can now do a better comparison with the shots in the movie versus the car auction photos.

And just for the record according to the IMDB the film was first released in the USA on 2 September 1952. I assume they must have taken at least six months to produce this film and probably a year or more.

My car, a 1952 TD, TD19629 was produced on September 9, 1952 and was delivered brand new to a MG car dealer approximately 10 miles from the production location of this film in November of 1952.
Christopher Couper

I just hope that my TD will attract that kind of money.... Because it was owned and driven by ME! LOL.

...CR
C.R. Tyrell

What is with the tonneau cover? It looks like there is additional material. On my 50, the tonneau lays flat, even with the top under it.

I don't have any of my reference material but the car has oil/temp gauge and high beam light on the speedo. it also has a windowed ignition switch and turn signals.

Last picture also confirms red paint on the bumper spacer.

Spare rim looks like it has has a rough life from the edge look. That may explain the large wheel weight. I like the competition racing tires. They say tubeless on them. Must be brand new as the tire on the left rear has a sticker still on it.

Close up of the paint shows numerous chips and a very patchy paint. It also appears there is some damage on the front left fender, but that may be the light.
Bruce Cunha

rear fender light mounting looks different. in the movie they were raised, but the auction fenders look flush to me?
mog

Keep it coming. You guys are doing great.

I thought I found an under the hood picture of the auction car which would be telling but I cannot find it now. If I locate it I will post the link.

This is definitely an interesting tale :-)
Christopher Couper


https://www.flickr.com/photos/dgin12/5870642338/sizes/l
ahh you didnt mention this pic.
mog

Mog.That was it. You win the Google award of the day :-)
Christopher Couper

Just to provide a bit of esoteric observation that most would not be privy to:

In 1950 California license plates were yellow with black letters with silver registration tags. In 1951 they switched over to black plates with yellow letters but did not put on a tag. It just said 51 on the lower right corner

In 1952 they still used the 1951 plates but now added a yellow tag (lower right corner) that overlayed the 51. And so you know in the 1950's California issued two registrations tags, one for the front and one for the rear. Cars had to display both plates and tags on the front and rear of the car.


Christopher Couper

While I am at it I have been bothered by the round license plate lamp we see on both the movie car and auction car. I thought that alone would make the car so unique that they had to be the same car.

I could not pinpoint the source of these but I realized after looking at my pictures, I had a sample all along. It was a accessory from the most popular LA based supplier, Dale Runyan.

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_america.htm#dale_runyan




Christopher Couper

From the pictures of the movie car, the chrome headlights do look as if they were chrome in the movie.

Grab bar is not the one in the movie. Here is a picture from the movie. Note that the wiper is on the right.

From this picture, it looks as if there is/was a dent in the right fender.


Bruce Cunha

Thanks Chris, never won owt before :)


so if it was made in in early 52, or late 51 it should not have dual oil/water guage? nor high beam indicator?


mog

I have compiled all of your observations as well as a number of my own including videos, other pictures of the auctioned car and additional statements and related tidbits found online.

I created a dedicated web page to the subject you can peruse here:

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_monroe_td.htm

Thank you for playing along. It was fun and enlightening.
Christopher Couper

This whole thread started when I found this picture on ebay. I have been in contact with the seller and I must admit we stirred up a whole controversy on the subject of Marilyn Monroe and MGTD's. He is sending me a larger image that shows more of the car.

From what I can tell in this picture the car appears to be a mid or late 52 (painted headlamps with no KOTR emblems). The car has the original tires on it and they are barely worn. Also the underside of the fenders are very clean. There is no record of when or where the picture was taken.

Who owned it is up for question. Why she is staring perplexed at the side curtain is also unknown. It does not appear to be a studio photo but more like one captured out of the public eye.



Christopher Couper

The compilation is amazing Chris. The car in the pic above is surely ivory which is not the car that was used in Monkey Business, which may or may not have been red (or green). It definitely wasn't ivory! So what's the significance of the ivory TD? Perhaps she's just admiring her reflection? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter: That is the question that is now being pondered.

From a note I sent the seller of the above picture who is focused on MM memorabilia:

So far your image is the only piece of evidence I have seen that even remotely links her to an MG TD, or any other MG, in the context of an operator.

As you pointed out what would be the purpose for her to hold that side curtain in her hand? I don't believe that was a studio shot so to me it looks personal. Either a associate was showing her his car (most likely a him since sports car were very sexist at the time) and she just grabbed it to make a comment about it or she had some other association with the car. Did she have some affection for the car model after the film? Was the studio planning on extending the promotion of the film via the car? Maybe they were working on some angle with the international importer, Hambro or Gough, and it was never fulfilled.

Note she was fairly familiar with the MGTD already since she had to sit in one for a lot scenes in Monkey Business. Those were probably confined to the studio shots or simple outdoor shots where the car was static or barely moving. Much of the driving I am sure was done by stunt persons as some of them are quite harrowing even by today's standards.

I think if she and Cary Grant actually crashed the car into the fence it was by accident and they folded it into the movie. If you look at the actors heads its a wonder they did not get whiplash (or maybe the stunt doubles did and you will never get that feedback).

Its kind of interesting that Ginger Rogers, who actually drove the TD in the movie, got almost no billing on this whole auction affair.
Christopher Couper

I think there may have been more than one TD used in the movie. The car in the picture I posted (at the garage) clearly has a different grab handle and damage to the right fender and, it looks like to the headlight.

It would not be unusual that multiple cars were used for different scenes especially if the plot involves damaging a car.

The grab bar shown in Chris's web page titled scene 1, does appear to match the one on the sold car.
Bruce Cunha

There's some possibility in what Bruce says about maybe more than one car being used.
Perhaps more than one in the movie, and perhaps even a different car used for still photographs used from promotion and posters.
BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

I'm with Bruce on this one. Do not think it would hard to believe there was more than one car used in filming.
(I would not pay top dollar for an Orange Dodge with "01" on the door & a rebel flag on the roof either.)
David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

Guys: The grab handle on Bruce's picture is exactly the same as the Scene 1 picture. Its the grab handle on the auction car that's different.

The reason that Bruce's picture has a broken headlamp and a dented fender is that is part of the story. You have to watch the movie. It was damaged during the fence encounter. Note I think the hubcap was removed and the headlamp was taken off and draped over to simulate it getting broken. I can't tell you what they did to the fender to put the dent in but it could have been painted on or God forbid, they dented it.

Lastly I thought about the two car theory too, but that is why I looked at every scene frame by frame. The auction car features never show up.

And you do you explain the auction car features that were not even in MG's production until after the film was released? Hollywood is not that creative.
Christopher Couper


Season's Greetings.


The TD Super Sleuths are doing a Superb Job....!

While the High Price is ignored, the total cost
would be much higher, I think.

The cost, as listed, reads: $210,000.
Plus $48,300. Plus Taxes. Plus Fees.

So, maybe Total Cost....$260,000......!

Well, there is a fine photo of a White/Crème TD
with a Fine Shape holding a side curtain....
I am not convinced she is Marilyn Monroe...
Close, but....


Great Sport, these TDs....


Peace.


DrRx. TD # 823.


drcrougeux

Yeah, I don't think that's Marilyn with the white TD. If you look at pictures of her from the '51 to '52 time period and later she had already gone full blonde bombshell, which is evident even in black and white photos.

I will say that determining whether that's Marilyn involves much more engaging research and inspection than figuring out who owned that beat up old car!
David Littlefield

DrDx: You did the math and its shocking. $260,000 is a lot of money. And because it was an auction, at least two parties thought that was a reasonable price for a car driven by or sat upon by five important movie stars. But if you do the calculation that only 2 might have been relevant for the auctioned car (Debbie Reynolds and Carrie Fisher) maybe the car is only worth (260/5)*2 = $104k :-)

I am not a MM expert either but this is what one had to say about that picture when I asked:

//quote on
I don't know much about cars, but I can guarantee that is a young MM. Car probably owned by movie exec.
//quote off

Having said that he at first thought the photo was pre Monkey Business based on her hair. I pointed out that was impossible because the car in the photo was produced during or after that films release based on its characteristics.

We ended up on settling that the picture was probably taken during the summer of 52 or maybe 53.
Christopher Couper

The driving scene from behind is quite interesting, shows grab handle detail well, also what looks like brookland screen mounts?

I wonder what the history of the car was pre movie, screen shape from in front looks td painted matt to avoid reflection of the camera, maybe a bit short in the crash scene, but the 2 extra holes are strange ?.

what fun.
mog

Just a point of interest: If you measure the height of a TD windscreen and then compare it to Marilyn's height in the picture and you will see how short she was - only 5'4.5", and weighed about 115 lbs.

My brother's ex worked at the Banff Springs Hotel while Marilyn was there in 1953 filming "River of No Return" with Robert Mitchum. His ex babysat for Mitchem's youngest and got to know both stars. She say that Marilyn was so short that on the shoot an aid followed her around with a small step-stool for her to stand on when she was next to other actors. No one was ever allowed to take a picture of her on the stool.

See the pictures her in Banff at:

http://voyagevixens.com/2013/05/20/marilyn-monroe-in-alberta-60th-anniversary/

http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/09/28/gallery-new-photos-show-marilyn-monroe-during-visit-to-alberta/

Jc

John Crawley

Mog. I have not figured out yet who made these windscreens but they show up all of the time.

Can you tell me what you mean by 'but the 2 extra holes are strange'. Which extra holes are you referring to?

John C. Thanks for the critical picture math. This woman seems to be perhaps the most protected in history, even more so than Cleopatra. Without going social I can sort of understand how she ended up the way she did. The pressures and loss of control must have been devastating to her psyche.



Christopher Couper

if you open your new page devoted to observations, the 2nd video shot(roller skating)the screen looks like it has either 2 holes, or two small studs maybe, inbetween the two wiper pivots. they are not wiper mounting points as too wide apart, shape of the screen is square td...
mog

mog: Did you notice the windscreen wiper motor is not mounted on those shots? It would block your view of Marilyn. Is that perhaps the holes you are mentioning? They had to pull all that wiper stuff off for the frontal shots.
Christopher Couper

its probably nothing.




mog

Mog: I agree with you that the windscreen frame was painted flat black for the front shots on that scene. I suspect the lighting in the studio was causing all sorts of glare.

Once was with a friend who had his TC in a photo shoot for a Mazda ad. They spray the whole car with some anti glare coating. I practically had to do CPR on him :-)
Christopher Couper

Mog,

My TD3966 also has these 2 holes, same place. Don't know why...perhaps some accessory in those days?

Jasper
JL Nederhoed TD3966

TD4834 has these holes also in the upper frame. Mine didn't have any thing in them when I got the car. Thought maybe they are there to be used as a bumper when installing the glass to center it within the frame but have no idea either on their real purpose.

Bill Chasser Jr
TD4834
W. A. Chasser Jr

Interesting, good to know, cheers.
mog

Oh. There are two blank screws in the top of windshield frame. They keep the spacers from moving around. I did not know what you were referring too. Sorry.


Christopher Couper

Chris

Talking about the extra tail light on the license plate holder. In your clip on the car lot, the light on that TD appears to be different from the one on the car that sold. Could be just the photo's but the one in the clip looks rounder and it appears to have a chrome rim around the light. The sale car looks different.
Bruce Cunha

In Chris's clip, you can also see that the windshield frame must have been painted with a flat color so it would not reflect back to the camera. The hood hinge chrome piece is shiny, but the windscreen is not.
Bruce Cunha

Bruce I agree on the license plate lamp. Does any have a picture of what I think is a Runyan round license plate lamp? You can see one in the magazine ad above but its very poor quality.

As Bruce and I pointed out, they look entirely different.
Christopher Couper

Maybe this can add something ???
Cheers,

Nick (TD3232)


Nick Herwegh

Nick: My conspiracy antenna is up with that document. What is the source?

Somehow I think there is a tie in with MG sales and the movie. And I think the picture of MM in shorts above was also part of this.

Again this is just conjecture on my part and it may have been planned but not fully executed or perhaps also just got lost in time.
Christopher Couper

"Nuffield News Exchange" magazine, November 1952, page 7.

Nick (TD3232)
Nick Herwegh

To throw a little kink in the discussion, A man by the name of Lederman used to come to many of our GOF here in the southeast. He sold a very good line of collector car clothing. He was always picky about where we let him set up. Several times he came in a white TD that he said was formally Marilyn Monroes. None of us contradicted him. He finally quit showing up and told us he was about to sellthe car.Any info on this
Ellis Carlton

Ellis.

His name was Lederman Rupp, and his white TD was reputed to have a special history. His goods were excellent. I still have his Abingdon Badge on my TF.
Don Harmer

Hmm. Any contact info for him or a way to find out his TD's car number?
Christopher Couper

Oddly or quiet the coincidence the Marilyn Monroe picture of her holding the side screen is now for sale on ebay.
Rich (TD 3983) Taylor

Rich. That is where I spotted it and that's what started this whole project :-)

Note the seller is sending me a full, uncropped picture with less Marilyn and more TD, because I know all of you would rather look at the TD than Marilyn Monroe :-)
Christopher Couper

This thread was discussed between 11/12/2014 and 20/12/2014

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