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MG TD TF 1500 - Mark II engine value

I have a Mark II XPAG engine that someone with a Mark II wants to buy, since his car has a stock TD replacement engine. I want to be fair.

It is an assembled and complete TD/C engine less carbs: large intake and exhaust manifolds, distributor, oil pump, rocker gear, clutch, tin, etc. I have not pulled it apart and know nothing about internal condition, but it turns over freely.

Any thoughts as to value? I know that on eBay complete XPAG engines are listed between $2500-3500, and was thinking that this one is probably worth closer to $3500, since it is a genuine TD/C engine, and complete.

Any thoughts or recommendations? Thanks.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Tom,

I wouldn't pay $3500 for an engine that I wasn't 100% sure didn't have internal engine problems. There's just too much uncertainty...for instance, how's the crank?

I'd say mid-way - $3000 at the most (as/is) with no come backs

Gene

Gene Gillam

Excellent point, Gene - I will also guarantee the crank (sight unseen)! I don't want to cheat anyone.

Thanks for the useful reply.

Tom Lange
t lange

With the crank guaranteed then $3500 sounds fair for what you're offering. He can sell his engine and get away reasonably cheap.

Gene
Gene Gillam

Those engines on eBay may be listed at $3500 but they certainly aren't selling. Personally I wouldn't pay that kind of money for any used engine core. After all what he would really be buying is a larger valved head and... the later MK II distributor & TD3 tag (if it is a later engine). The internals are all the same. Only if it was the original engine out of my car would I be so inclined to entertain the thought. It won't change the value of the car. But then I'm not the buyer

Respectfully

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
TD/c-16920
W A Chasser

Surprisingly, the UK owner of the car into which this engine goes could not have been less interested in reuniting it with his car.

I've sold four engine cores this past year, and every one has been between $2000-$3,000, depending on condition and completeness. Fortunately I had engine numbers close to what was needed!

This is the ONLY TD/C engine I have ever seen for sale.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Trickery, Black Magic and Skulduggery. There is no such thing as Mark II engine, Any XPAG can be made into a Mark II engine. A TF engine is exactly alike; and if you want to be serious, just buy an engine tag from NTG (other suppliers may also have them) and using the chassis nbr of any legitimate TD/C, check with the T Register dataBase (http://www.tregister.org/search_prod.php) and stamp the disk with a legitimate and correct Mark II engine number.

This is only true if the suspect engine is being sold WITHOUT the exclusive oilbath air cleaner, which may be exclusive to the Mark II.

It may be possible too, that a standard TD air pipe has been opened up to fit the H4s of the Mark II which can be fitted with with a (new and now available from NTG) air canister (that uses a modern, K&N filter), giving the appearance of a legitimate Mark II air inlet and filter assembly.

At this point, I'm getting into uncharted waters, as I'm not knowledgeable that the Mark II air pipe and canister were a modified TD or were made specially for the Mark II, although I do know the part numbers were different.

So who's to say the above hasn't been done to a stock TD engine?

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué
Gord Clark

Gord - there is perfect transparency here.

This engine number is XPAG/TD/7611, which can be verified as having come from car TD/C 7134 in the on-line Production Records. So it IS a Mark II engine. The engine block has the same engine number 7611 stamped on the plinth above the brass tag, so this is NOT merely a re-numbered standard TD engine - it came from a TD/C car. The intake manifold is a 1-1/4" manifold bored out to fit 1-1/2" carbs, as it came from the factory.

Two air intake pipes were used on TDs - the earlier small one used on regular TDs and Mark II cars into 1952, and the larger one used on later cars, after car TD 22613 (this number from the parts book). The standard air intake was ordinarily fitted to 1-1/4" H2 carbs on the TD, and in order to fit it to the larger 1-1/2" H4 Mark II carbs to cars BEFORE 22613, the carb flanges were modified by filing the holes inward to form slots - not the air intake manifold. This present engine would have used the standard TD air filter arrangement, which would strangled it - see Tom McCahill's caustic comments in his Mechanix Illustrated test of the Mark II car.

So how is there "Trickery, Black Magic or Skulduggery", which last criticism implicates me in "underhand, unscrupulous, or dishonest behaviour"? It seems to me that I have been clear, straight-forward and honest. On the other hand, your suggestion to fraudulently re-number an engine to be something it isn't, strikes me as being all of the above - underhand, unscrupulous and dishonest.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

I totally agree with Bill about eBay prices. In addition to being interested in MGs I also collect old telephones and many are advertised on eBay. If there is anything that I am remotely interested in I always click the watch button so I can see what they sell for. It is very rare for a buy it now price to be reached. Many items have no bids because the start price is too high. One of the big advantages of eBay is that it allows for the market to determine the price.

Cheers

Jan T
J Targosz

If the buyer wants an original Mk II engine that left the factory in a Mk II, that would be worth more than a standard one IMHO. That would be a totally correct replacement engine as well. Considering that a new billet crank is $2700, if the crank was good, $3000 would be a heck of a bargain! George
George Butz

When I found Lazarus he carried a Volvo B16 engine and gearbox. In ~1990 I bought a complete (minus air filter) engine(#28838) for $2,000. Later discovered that the crankshaft couldn't pass magnaflux. Was fortunate find a new crankshaft for $1,000. I'm still using the generator, starter, distributor, carburetors.

That was a quarter of a century ago. Today it seems to me that a complete engine, with a guaranteed good crank, would be a steal at $3500, TD/C or not. Bud
Bud Krueger

I originally offered to sell the complete engine for $3500, and the buyer countered that I remove all the ancillaries (starter, generator, manifolds, distributor, clutch, etc.), leaving all the tin and the oil pump - he has all those parts on his present engine. I guarantee that the crank is not broken, and will also remove the head and verify it is a Mark II big-valve head, for $3,000.

I agreed to his proposal. He considers himself extremely lucky to have found a genuine engine from a Mark II car, as he has not been able to locate another one anywhere.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Great Tom...I think he made a $500 mistake though.

Gene
Gene Gillam

Gene - Broadly speaking, I think the starter, generator, distributor (all as cores in unknown condition) and manifolds are worth $100 each (the clutch nothing), so I think $500 for the 5 pieces was fair to both of us. Whether it was easiest is another question, but remember that his goal was to keep down costs.

It might have been easier to buy the complete engine and rebuild one ancillary at a time as he could afford it, and then replace the entire engine at once. But that was completely his decision, and I offered to do anything to make the process easier for him. He has all those parts in good condition on his engine already, and saw no reason to duplicate them with mine.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Tom,

You sound quite right. You're probably one of a very few people who really know the TD mark II. Certainly I don't. Not all XPAG blocks are stamped with a serial number, so someone (like me) might unsuspectedly buy a converted standard engine that had all the appearances of a Mark II.

But do we know for certain that ALL Mark II blocks are stamped with a serial nbr?

We have a TD in our area that has all the appearance of a legitimate Mark II, but on the one occasion that I had a chance to chat with then owner, I asked to see the serial nbr on the dumb iron, about which he knew nothing, and that had enough paint on it so not to be able to read it. But when I tried to photograph his ALUMINIUM car plate, he quickly closed the bonnet.

I later learned from a PO, that chassis nbr is 19140 and the engine nbr is 19795 and this PO believed he had a legitimate Mark II and sold it as such!

Perhaps you can identify this TD as a TD/C.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

Possibly you were not allowed to photo the car plate because, according to the MG production records held by the MG Car Club T Register, chassis 19140 is a standard TD; TD19140 EXLNA. It was fitted with original engine XPAG/TD2/10443 on the 26th Aug 1952.
This present another puzzle, as number 10443 would have been applied to an engine in late 1951, so why did it not get put into a car for another 8 or 9 months.
R A WILSON

The last puzzle posed by R. A. Wilson can easily be resolved. And here is exactly the reason why the physical Production Records are invaluable: the on-line Production Records have a typo (sadly, not the only example)!

The original engine in car TD19140 was XPAG/TD2/19443, not 10443 as the on-line records show. And you are quite right, that is not listed as a TD/C car.

That being said, I have so far seen two cars whose bonafides I accept, both clearly Mark II cars but neither marked as such. I know that all the Mark II goodies could be bought over the counter and added, but there are certain features that could only have been done to the chassis on the assembly line or when completely disassembled, neither had been restored, and both these cars had those characteristics.

All Production Record queries cheerfully answered.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Thanks Tom and R.A.,

I never had any doubts that TD 19140 was anything but a bone-standard TD Series 2. The first time I saw this car, it had (and still does) have 1¼" SUs, despite the plumbing for 2 fuel pumps, friction dampers, Mark II flashes, etc.

My whole point in this issue is just how close one can get to forging a Mark II from a standard TD, Series 2; and how some people can be duped. We had an example of this 3 or 4 years ago when an over-restored TD appeared in the showroom of a well-know dealer, and we (collectively) on this forum, finally convinced the dealer to stop trying to pass it off as a Mark II.

The issue with TD19140 is that a PO and good friend of mine, and the 2 subsequent owners, are STILL convinced its a Legitimate Mark II.

In the final analysis, if the dumb iron isn't stamped with TD/C, then chances are the engine's a fake as well.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

You can filter eBay results buy "Completed Items" to see what things actually sold for, or if they sold at all. There have been several engines listed recently that never sell, probably because of the price, inability to inspect in person, and shipping costs.

If it helps, I just sold a complete standard TD engine minus carbs and generator for $1000. Crank at 30/10, bore at +20. It needed everything done. A friend also recently sold a complete TC engine, running when pulled 15 years earlier, with all ancillaries, for $3500. So prices do vary wildly.

I think the value in these things is finding someone who needs exactly what you have, at the time you want to sell it. For example, I tried to sell a 3-main 1800 B-Series engine for quite some time without success. Then a couple months ago a guy drove 425 miles to get it and asked why I was selling so cheap.
Steve Simmons

Surprised by the mention of a Series 2 TD, as it never existed. The matter was raised, and put to bed, many years ago in either the MG Car Club Safety Fast or the T Register Bulletin - there was only the TD and the TD Mark II. However, in July 1951 the XPAG engine clutch size was increased from 7.25" to 8", and the engine code changed from XPAG/TD to XPAG/TD2 (or XPAG/SC to XPAG/SC2), but the car name or description was not changed.
R A WILSON

RA,

You may just be right. I don't know for sure. I know that when I bought my TD, it had round tail lights and the dealers here referred to that model as a "Series 2", as against the square tail light model, which the dealers referred to as a "Series 1".

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

I did think it might be an American sales promotion feature, but couldn't find anything to back it up. I found a 1953 Road and Track (USA) road test number F-2-53, which includes a TD, but it does not say it is a 1953 model, does not mention series 1 or 2, and no photos of the rear of the car. There is also a 1953 Autocar (UK) road test number 1497, which shows a TD with round rear lights, but no mention of series 1 or 2.
Thus possibly only a Canadian sales feature - I wonder if MG were consulted, who probably would not have been concerned so long as it sold cars.
(MY 1951 TD has square rear lights)
.
R A WILSON

Tom don't forget the MK2 alum air cleaner pipe has the stud on the bottom relocated to fit the the cast iron intake bracket. This can be used to tell a real MK2 pipe from a bored out one. Forrest TD/C 22679 PS 19140 would not have flashs even if it was a MK2.
Forrest Rubenstein

This thread was discussed between 17/09/2017 and 22/09/2017

MG TD TF 1500 index

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